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Is 28 functions enough? What is the future of DCC?


JZjr
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  • 1 month later...
On 04/02/2019 at 17:12, 40034_Nick said:

Upgrade its software or do you mean a completely new system ?

Upgrade the software.

ESU do upgrade lok programmer too.

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On 25/01/2019 at 20:42, JZjr said:

Wasn't sure where to post this, but seeing as how many functions sound can use I think it's best placed here.

 

As in the title, is 28 functions enough?

 

With lighting at either end of a vehicle/MU and potentially cab lights and internal lights combined with sound functions and increasingly available DCC uncouplers and pantographs is 28 functions enough?

 

Have you experienced a shortage of functions in any of your models?

 

I'm adding lighting to a 142 and am wiring it for the separate control of head & tail lights, this combined with cab, internal, hazard lights and sound is pushing me ever closer to using all 28 functions. If I ever wanted to add separate marker/head light control and uncouplers I'd be maxed out.

 

What is the future of DCC?

 

Cheers

 

So far I've found 28 functions is more than enough for sound locos especially diesels

 

0 directional lights on/off

1 sound on/off

2 short horn/whistle

3 long horn/whistle

4 head lamp on/off

5 coasting/throttle hold

6 brakes

7 flange squeal

8 cab lights

9 guards whistle

10 coupling noises

11 buffer clash

12 rail noise

13 auto uncoupling shuffle

14 coach door slam

15 station announment

16 shunting mode (light engine)

17 arm loose coupling cascading snatch (as goods train starts off)

18 arm cascading loose coupled buffer clash (as goods train stops)

 

As to the future of DCC, electronically I find DCCs specs seems to be based on late 1970s technology and very very slow transmitting data down the bus (ie try recording 300 CVs quickly). Sound decoder chips seem excessively expensive (eg LokSound + Zimo) considering their manufacturing unit cost is mere penneys. DCC ready in this day and age should be a simple plug in under floor process not requiring loco bodies to be removed. I've yet to find the ideal ergonomic cab layout for sound locos (ie combines custom labelling of sound function buttons with physical throttle control inputs for blind one handed use).

 

I do agree with you there are some superfluous gymicky sound functions offered on some sound projects (eg fans, sanders, cab doors, shovelling coal, etc) which will never be used except for that novelty first time use when one goes through the entire list of functions. When driving I find the engine notching sounds (or steam chuff), brakes, flange squeal, short/long/distant horns and whistles are the only sounds I regularly use (ie 5-7 functions).

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The logical progression would be a simplified cab GUI on the controller interfaced with a physics engine controlling loco sound and motor functions. You would drive a steam loco using a reverser, regulator and brakes rather than a knob and the physics engine would translate that into motion and appropriate sounds. 

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1 hour ago, NoelG said:

 

So far I've found 28 functions is more than enough for sound locos especially diesels

 

0 directional lights on/off

1 sound on/off

2 short horn/whistle

3 long horn/whistle

4 head lamp on/off

5 coasting/throttle hold

6 brakes

7 flange squeal

8 cab lights

9 guards whistle

10 coupling noises

11 buffer clash

12 rail noise

13 auto uncoupling shuffle

14 coach door slam

15 station announment

16 shunting mode (light engine)

17 arm loose coupling cascading snatch (as goods train starts off)

18 arm cascading loose coupled buffer clash (as goods train stops)

 

 

You have mentioned diesels, so I assume the list is for them. There are some you have missed which others may find desirable:

19 Compressor

20 Sander

21 Exhauster

22 Roof fan

23 Spirax valves

24 Air release

25 Fuel primer

26 Detonators

 

Some other features require functions too:

27 Rear lights on/off

28 Day/night light select

29 RETB token request

30 Remote uncouple for no1 end

31 Remote uncouple for no2 end

 

The last 2 are features not currently offered but would it be useful to uncouple with a press of a button rather than using a hook/stick? As manufacturers offer an increasing amount of features in order to beat competition & tempt modellers to upgrade to newer models, the ability to add even more functions may become desirable.

 

Your argument of having 'more than enough' reminds me of when I first started in IT & my manager bought a 13GB hard drive, which at the time was the largest available. Many remarked that 'he will never fill that'.

 

 

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Why not (or is this too complicated?) :

 

F7 stationary: guards whistle

F7 on the move: flange squeal

 

F10 on the move: arm function -> throttle to zero: immediate stop and buffer clash -> if function is still on: coupling UP noise. (For safety reasons: only available in shunting mode.)

F10 stationary: uncoupling shuffle & UNcoupling noise & remote uncouple for no1 or no2 end, depending on direction of travel.

 

F17 stationary: arm loose coupling cascading snatch (as goods train starts off)

F17 on the move: arm cascading loose coupled buffer clash (as goods train stops)

 

saves a lot of keys...

Edited by Hamburger
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11 hours ago, Hamburger said:

Why not (or is this too complicated?) :

 

F7 stationary: guards whistle

F7 on the move: flange squeal

 

F10 on the move: arm function -> throttle to zero: immediate stop and buffer clash -> if function is still on: coupling UP noise. (For safety reasons: only available in shunting mode.)

F10 stationary: uncoupling shuffle & UNcoupling noise & remote uncouple for no1 or no2 end, depending on direction of travel.

 

F17 stationary: arm loose coupling cascading snatch (as goods train starts off)

F17 on the move: arm cascading loose coupled buffer clash (as goods train stops)

 

saves a lot of keys...

 

Speaking for ZIMO sound decoders,

 

F7 dual use as suggested. Simple to achieve. I would add that flange squeal should be speed-related too.

 

F10 suggestion. It would be possible to get the decoder to do this, but because of the number of variables which would need to be accurately set for optimal operation it would need to set up for each individual model, layout and user. Probably not something viable for a 'plug and play' general solution.

 

F17. Already done and basic specification exceeded. I've added automatic snatching when moving if large throttle opening, buffer clash whilst moving if large throttle reduction, and buffer clash on stopping, but only if the brakes (separate manual brake key) are in use ( to avoid buffer clash if coasting to a halt). Automatically disable snatching and buffering sounds when running 'light engine' as tbere will be nothing to snatch or rattle.

 

You can see this in action here: (though I assigned it to F18 in this project).

 

 

As can be seen, making the sounds work to give an overall impression of train working is relatively easy, getting the wagons to operate as if they have realistic mass is another thing altogether.

 

Most people will be satisfied with sounds which simulate the movement, but there'll no doubt be those for whom only absolutely perfect sync will suffice. For those people, there is an 'OFF' key. LOL.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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15 hours ago, NoelG said:

Sound decoder chips seem excessively expensive (eg LokSound + Zimo) considering their manufacturing unit cost is mere penneys.

 

I do agree with you there are some superfluous gymicky sound functions offered on some sound projects (eg fans, sanders, cab doors, shovelling coal, etc) which will never be used except for that novelty first time use when one goes through the entire list of functions. When driving I find the engine notching sounds (or steam chuff), brakes, flange squeal, short/long/distant horns and whistles are the only sounds I regularly use (ie 5-7 functions).

 

You said 'Sound decoder chips seem excessively expensive (eg LokSound + Zimo) considering their manufacturing unit cost is mere penneys.'

 

I'll give an alternative view, for the following reasons.

 

A) Your assertion is an unsubstantiated remark. Demonstrate, with actual figures, the cost of designing and producing and manufacturing  LokSound or ZIMO decoders 'for pennies'.

and

B) Much of the manufacturer's costs are tied up with R & D staff, production and release of 'free' software upgrades , bringing new features and manuals in addition to recording, production, update and maintainance of 'free' sound projects. (Even though we benefit very little from these in the UK, they are still a company overhead 'shared' by all).

 

 

 

Sound projects are designed to simulate many different aspects of real railways. You may not be interested in hearing coal shovelling sounds, but the next man may question how it's possible to 'raise steam' without shovelling coal.

 

If individual sounds offend you, don't use them. Or create your own sound projects, something that's possible with the fully programmable decoders from LokSound and ZIMO.

 

But dismissing them as 'superfluous gymicky sound functions' is to belittle others' preferences and could be viewed by some as a triffle condescending. In case you do not know this already, many sounds and features have gradually been added to sound decoders' repertoires at the specific request of end users. If it's possible and does not reduce the quality of the other aspects of the sound project, why not include (optional by key press) additional features? After all, it's the ability to meet users' requests which separates LokSound and ZIMO from other brands. If you are paying the money anyway, might just as well get as much bang for your buck.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

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I agree the cost of the parts online has little relevance to the actual cost of developing, making custom boards and supporting them in the future, which both Zimo and ESU do, oh and making a profit on a very niche market in relative terms ;)

 

I too only use four or five functions regularly and have so far taken advantage of the Z21 allowing me to choose the few I want and put them on the main control screen so I can have F2, F17 and F28 next to each other. I have started to remap the ESU decoders with the lokprogrammer so the first few functions such as whistles, flange squeal and brake where available are on the same F numbers so the locos work just as well with the multimaus and it’s numbered buttons. That way I can provide one cheat sheet so operators only need to remember those few keys and it’s the same for every loco making life at a show much easier. 

Edited by PaulRhB
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On 02/04/2019 at 14:56, pauliebanger said:

F10 suggestion. It would be possible to get the decoder to do this, but because of the number of variables which would need to be accurately set for optimal operation it would need to set up for each individual model, layout and user. Probably not something viable for a 'plug and play' general solution.

 

I agree. However, the buffer clash only makes sense if the locomotive stops at the same moment. With some controls, e.g. Smartphone or key control, it is hardly possible to do both at the same time. I do not like it when the locomotive pushes the train further.
Maybe you can program an immediate stop of the locomotive with the buffer clash at the same time when the F-key is pressed.

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On ‎01‎/‎04‎/‎2019 at 23:58, dpgibbons said:

The logical progression would be a simplified cab GUI on the controller interfaced with a physics engine controlling loco sound and motor functions. You would drive a steam loco using a reverser, regulator and brakes rather than a knob and the physics engine would translate that into motion and appropriate sounds. 

I think you are looking at a completely new system for that: because to work well enough to justify itself the 'physics engine' needs continuous information on the work the loco is doing. It would be a lot of fun. I'd like to see the look on a typical steam operator's face when having grafted his 8F up to 35mph on 1200 ton of loose coupled he finds it won't stop in the five feet he was used to.

 

(In my dreams: No magic get out button, he has to watch it crash while the audio switches to a solemn voice intoning "For over three hundred years the basic Newtonian mechanics that are adequate to describe the movement of a realistically operated scale model have been known, please try and catch up.".)

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Surely, the number of functions on a model locomotive is limited by the functions of the real thing?

A lot of functions previously discussed could be automated such as "flange squeal" - if the loco could detect when it is working over pointwork or a sharp curve, only then does it make that noise*.

I do like Pauliebangers video above, that shows where such associated sounds can go in the future.

Tail lights on and off - do they need two functions? Surely, you only need the one as logic dictates they are not on at the same time/end as the headlights?

Imho, sounds such as doors slamming, buzzers, bacon frying etc. that would be inaudible off the loco itself, are merely gimmicks - the real focus should be on getting the rumble of the real engine, the chuff of the exhaust to sound as realistic as possible and for that, the work needs to go into the speakers (probably also changing physics!).

Cheers,

John.

 

*ESU Engineering Edition locomotives have done this for some time now, they have little contacts on the backs of the wheels to detect how much movement the wheelset has made, simple but effective.

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