Flat Containers on MOD workings

[AberDG]

Dear All,

Looking in Freight Only Volume 3 Wales & Scotland by Rhodes & Shannon, on page 128 are 2 pictures of FGA twin sets loaded with flat containers working from Elgin to Abeerdeen Guild Street. I assume I cannot upload the pictures due to copyright?

 

The pictures are not ideal and it is difficult to see what type of container is being used. It has been suggested that they are DROPS but I am not convinced. They look more like standard containers and I am not sure when DROPS were introduced.

 

Does anyone have any other photos of such containers on MOD workings, ideally around 1990, although any would be appreciated to see the type of containers and also how the load is covered and restrained?

 

Happy to also open this topic to general MOD trains loaded with containers around 1990. I appreciate as we get into the EWS years there are many, many photos on the net of such trains...... but not of the early years of MOD containerisation.

 

Thanks,

John

[Banger Blue]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demountable_Rack_Offload_and_Pickup_System

[Banger Blue]

Although it’s clear the DROPS had some specialised pallets to carry:

 

https://flic.kr/p/dDBfxu

 

https://flic.kr/p/2axtfpA

 

The vast majority of DROPS vehicles I ever saw out on Operations / Exercise, just had standard ISO containers carried on the flatbed rack as in these pictures:

 

https://flic.kr/p/ectPGW

 

https://flic.kr/p/9HZ5o4

 

https://flic.kr/p/bram8d

 

None are my pics, just found on Flickr after a quick search.

Edited January 28, 2019 by Banger Blue

[AberDG]

Thanks Banger Blue, you are right DROPS are very much lorry based.

These are definitely normal containers rather than containers loaded onto the DROPS flatbed.

 

Always fascinated to see the variety of specialist loads the MOD has to put on the back of lorries and trains.

 

Cheers,

John

[brian daniels]

Outside of your time frame I know but some decks were transported from one place to another en-mass once. And a few with containers on!

 

2009

 

2008

 

Edited January 28, 2019 by brian daniels

[AberDG]

Hi Brian,

An interesting pair of photos. Clearly showing DROPS on container flats as they have twist locks, and a clear view of the DROPS "loop" for the loading hook.

The second pic is interesting showing how a load fits onto the DROPS flatbed.

I have looked at your photos before and there are a lot of very interesting MOD loads on your Flickr site, many thanks for posting them.

The two pictures are DROPS on FCA twins (amazed no one has done a kit or RTR of this) but to the right of the FCA on the second photo is that an EWS low deck wagon....not sure of the TOPs code?

Cheers,

John

[West Junction]

I had the pleasure of dealing with MoD Flatracks on rail from 2000 to 2015.

Most moves were empties between MoD depots, Marchwood, Ashchurch and Bicester. They are not compatible with the normal container handling equipment so can be a pain to load on rail. No top lift or fork pockets.

Not a normal occurrence, but for clarity,  a ISO container on a flatrack would not be loaded to rail together, but loaded separately because of gauge issues.

Some flatracks as seen in Brian's second photo,  have structures built on. In this case water tanks and pump sets, all part of the same load unit. The MoD does now seem, where possible, to  procure all sorts of accommodation units, tanks etc in an ISO frame to make transportation straight forward. These can even have the necessary loop to load on a Drops vehicle without the need for a flatrack.

A few flatracks were moved loaded, being subject to load examination by FOC before acceptance. Loads being secured by straps. 

 

 

 

 

[Simon Bendall]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 12:14 AM, AberDG said:

The two pictures are DROPS on FCA twins (amazed no one has done a kit or RTR of this) but to the right of the FCA on the second photo is that an EWS low deck wagon....not sure of the TOPs

John, its an FKA https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ewsmegafretfka

 

[AberDG]

18 hours ago, Simon Bendall said:

John, its an FKA https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ewsmegafretfka

 

Hi Si, thanks for confirming that.

and thanks West Junction for the background info. Yes the current scene does seem to have many "wagonload" options as the MOD become more and more ISO containerised.

Cheers, John

[brian daniels]

On 29/01/2019 at 00:14, AberDG said:

Hi Brian,

An interesting pair of photos. Clearly showing DROPS on container flats as they have twist locks, and a clear view of the DROPS "loop" for the loading hook.

The second pic is interesting showing how a load fits onto the DROPS flatbed.

I have looked at your photos before and there are a lot of very interesting MOD loads on your Flickr site, many thanks for posting them.

The two pictures are DROPS on FCA twins (amazed no one has done a kit or RTR of this) but to the right of the FCA on the second photo is that an EWS low deck wagon....not sure of the TOPs code?

Cheers,

John

 

Here is the other wagon with these flats on and another KFA with some more.

Edited February 12, 2019 by brian daniels

[AberDG]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for these latest photos, yet more variety.......and yet in the midst a wooden box, but then how else do you move say mechanical spares in the time of containerisation. Having scoured the military kits websites it surprises me that not more of these "different" types of load are available in say kit form through these outlets.

 

It does make me wonder that as many of the manufactures have done various container flats already, when such ones as the FCA, FAA and FKA may come onto the RTR radar, especially when you can use them in anything from one set upwards on such things as MOD workings.

 

Thanks, John

[daveyb]

The difficulty in loading these things with anything other than a DROPS or EPLS truck is where ever they are used, as West Junction said above.  His comment about getting equipment in an ISO sized frame has been an aim for a long time but only recently implemented.  The newer EPLS trucks (of which we have far too few) can lift a rack or a container or a special container with a lifting bar, so are hugely in demand.  They have a different set of rollers at the back to do this.

 

We use to use a towed system cal Rail Transfer Equipment to load flatracks onto trains, which lifted through the frame of the trailer onto the wagon and the ISO locks used the end-on fixing.  There was a Flatrack mounted version called SRTE which was more difficult to use as it could not 'swing through' meaning it lifted a flatrack then drove to the train and unloaded the rack onto the railway wagon.  You needed to be quite accurate with your parking!  I've no idea if these still exist, but I doubt it.  I last used one in Bosnia in '98. 

 

We regularly used to exercise in Germany by loading flatracks onto bogie flat wagons i.e. without twist locks.  They were either strapped down or bars inserted or both.

 

Those water carriers (Bean Cans) were built for decontamination teams in the event of chemical attacks but were much more widely used and the pumps never seemed to work!

 

There at least four different types of flatrack and that's before any specialist equipment.  GP racks had twist locks, skeletons were for MLRS rocket pods and the standard rack was a plain platform.  They were also intended to move 10 NATO Pallets of ammo, but they are too short.  Only 8 can be loaded without an overhang and that is not allowed under more recent dangerous goods regs.

 

There were Fuel Dispensing racks, Water Dispensing racks, plain water tanks, all sorts but all with that difficult to lift construction.  Those two racks flanking the crate on a hired folding ISO pallet (which is probably a tank engine) are office bodies usually carried on a flatbed truck and unusual on a rack.

 

The MoD used to have a fleet of full side opening ISO containers of at least three different designs but most have run out of date and are reserved for specialist loads.  We seem to hire all of them now.  End loading a crate like that is a real PITA, believe me!

 

I've said before that we used to load VAA, VDA VGA an VKA at Kineton and had fleet of old vans that were used internally.  I never saw VANWIDEs at Kineton though I saw them at ROF Chorley and Bridgewater and at CAD Longtown.  They've all gone now and I haven't loaded a train in a long time.  We use 20ft ISO container for everything now as it is cheaper than handling deck stowage at either end or port.  Regs have also tightened up in the last 20 years.

[AberDG]

Hi Davey, thanks for your post, some interesting insight on how things are/were done and what those loads are actually for.

 

Your comment about Kineton has got me interested. This is off topic....but it was my topic originally.

I have seen many pictures of stock in store at Kineton (and other depots in MoD service and otherwise). But do you know how most of it got there...or even left it was still rail worthy? Were there many rail movements or were they all brought in by lorry? It would appear most stock got to say Long Marston by rail and there are lots of pictures out there...but I have only ever come across the odd one for Kineton. If memory serves me right there were a number of class47s stored there as well as EMUs but never seen any pictures of them on route.

Does anyone have any pictures for these movements to say Kineton, Longtown or other MOD bases (LM has been done to death perhaps!!!)?

......a real long shot how did 47538 get to Devonport and I think 556 to Rosyth to be used as engine test beds?

 

Thanks, John

[Bon Accord]

With regard to Vanwides, after MOD traffic stopped with these vans over the network a lot of them were rounded up and used internally as barrier wagons when receiving/marshalling ammunition trains. Marchwood had a couple of dozen of them for such work, and also had a few LNER High sided opens kicking around the place too amongst some other odds and sods. All were repainted green and internal use. There was also a number of internal use (LMS built) Warflats around the place which had the slightly wider deck as used on the continent (I think used by the BAOR) and so out of gauge for the UK.

The other interesting sight was the number of OCA's in use to/from Marchwood on MOD traffic which were still in original Railfreight red complete with logos, although by now faded to a dull pink.

This was all the case certainly until I left Marchwood for the last time in 2014.

 

[daveyb]

53 minutes ago, AberDG said:

Hi Davey, thanks for your post, some interesting insight on how things are/were done and what those loads are actually for.

 

Your comment about Kineton has got me interested. This is off topic....but it was my topic originally.

I have seen many pictures of stock in store at Kineton (and other depots in MoD service and otherwise). But do you know how most of it got there...or even left it was still rail worthy? Were there many rail movements or were they all brought in by lorry? It would appear most stock got to say Long Marston by rail and there are lots of pictures out there...but I have only ever come across the odd one for Kineton. If memory serves me right there were a number of class47s stored there as well as EMUs but never seen any pictures of them on route.

Does anyone have any pictures for these movements to say Kineton, Longtown or other MOD bases (LM has been done to death perhaps!!!)?

......a real long shot how did 47538 get to Devonport and I think 556 to Rosyth to be used as engine test beds?

 

Thanks, John

I don't have any pics but the answer is by both road and rail to Kineton and Longtown.  A lot of stock arrived rail worthy for storage and was then allowed to decay as it became surplus or left beyond immediate use. It often depends why it was stored.

 

At Kineton in 96-00 we stored a number of new trains from manufacturers prior to service, including all the Central Line stock and some Jubilee stock. Came in and left by rail. We also had the Nightstar stock for a long time, but that got inspected before it moved out by rail as it had been there so long.

 

Other interesting stock was some national collection coaches under cover and the 503/4 set before restoration and the APT power car before restoration, both arrived by rail and left by road.

 

More run-of-the-mill was storage of a lot of Mk2s and similar vintage which arrived as serviceable stock with a view to reinstatement but simply got left. That used to get cleared out by road when fees got too high I suspect.

 

We had a few locos at Kineton but not many and not for long, not like LM, but a very different reason for the use of the depot. LM had become a store for Royal Engineer stuff (bridges, construction materials, some plant) and was less sensitive than a working ammo depot. Inspection and work crews needed less permissions to work at LM. 

 

Of all things, at one point there were at least two  grounded Deltic and a few SVT engines in the yard... sheeted but no other cover.

[brian daniels]

I took a couple of 508's into Kineton a while back. Took pictures on the branch but a no no in the site!

[AberDG]

Many thanks Brian, Davey and Jim

 

It continues to amaze me what is used, goes to and from, and ends up in MOD sidings!!...and if you modelled an APT power car in an MOD depot would anyone believe you

....and a use for the EMU translator coaches that were produced a while back.

 

Those photos are really interesting Brian, out of interest when were they taken?

 

Cheers, John

[Bon Accord]

A few pics of Marchwood Military Port showing the railway installation therein. Even though I spent 8 years there I rarely took pictures of anything railway related as it was of course there every day to see!

 

First one shows some of the sidings around the blast screens (green wall like structures centre left. An ammo train would arrive at the exchange sidings (out of picture, but visible on Google maps), change over from an NR loco to two of the MMP shunters (Bagnalls as I recall), split as appropriate and then drawn into the area between the two screens, normally with a couple of vanwides at each end as barriers. The idea with the screens is that if there is a big bang then they deflect it upwards rather than horizontally. An ammunition train would usually only be held there for a short period (less than a few hours) prior to the cargo being loaded aboard ship. Timing of arrival of such trains onto the site was always tightly controlled so as to ensure least time possible standing prior to loading. Quite a few internal use vanwides to be seen in the picture in their usual storage siding, together with Warflats and some 4 wheel 20' container flats with some VGA vans on the other side of the screens.

 

Another view, showing more of the sidings on the west side which included a loading ramp for warflats and warwells - a short train of flats loaded with Land Rovers can be seen together with assorted wagons. The latter are being used as storage for cargo which has been received in the port by road, loaded onto the wagons and left until required for transfer to a ship, at which point they'll be shunted round adjacent to the quays and the cargo transferred by forklift. An LNER high sided open on the right.

 

CVRT waiting to be loaded onto a Warflat. These vehicles will have arrived by ship from abroad, have been driven off the vessel onto the quay and then loaded by quayside crane onto the wagons for onward shipment.

 

This shows one of the out of gauge Warflats recovered from Germany in the mid 90s and used internally for transport. In this case it's holding an OSHKOSH tractor unit which had come to grief in Afghanistan and had been loaded onto a 40' flatrack for transport home for repair. This vehicle would eventually be craned onto a low loader for onward movement and repair, however to get it out of the way for the moment it was loaded directly onto the Warflat and taken elsewhere in the site for storage.

 

Another of the out of gauge Warflats, this time holding a pile driver which had been transhipped from a low loader prior to being craned onboard the vessel in the background. The extra width deck extensions are quite visible with the brackets attached next to the bufferbeam next to the white lashing down point.

 

Worksplate of the same.

[West Junction]

Bon Accord's pictures of Marchwood remind me of many hours spent there from 2000 to 2015 for EWS/DB.

For anybody that's interested, I can expand on some of the subject matter highlighted in the pictures.

 

The Warflats ex Germany BAOR, although internal users wagons, some had been modified for use in this country and renumbered MODA 98xxx series. This was never followed through and they remain internal users. UK MoD warflats are MODA 952xx and Warwells MODA 950xx.

The main use of the internal flats was holding cargo arriving by road for latter dispatch by sea. Lots of building material and agg bags for the regular Falkland vessel for example.

I've also seen them used for boats and landing craft for moving around the site, as well as many Mexi floats.

 

There were also a number of air braked internal user vans, some with blue curtains. They had been used for mainline work, but I only saw them in internal use for holding cargo waiting a ship. Some had curtains removed, and all were eventually sold off.

 

The MoD PFA two axle container wagons were used for mainline work but became internal users. They saw little work then, and were later sold off.

 

The EWS/DB wagon fleet for MoD container work changed over time. FCA twins & TIPH KFA wagons worked with PFA for a time. The KFA were later needed for other commercial work and were replaced by FKA wagons to work with the FCA's. The FKA were later swapped with FAA wagons off the NR cable train. FAA required for 9' 6" containers.

The second picture of Marchwood shows a double stack of generators in ISO frames between the Land Rovers and Jackals.

 

The MoD internal use opens came from MoD Bicester when they were no longer required there. They saw little use at Marchwood. 

They were moved from Bicester via Didcot on the MoD trip workings loaded on Warwell wagons.

 

The picture showing loading of CVRT's on Warwells by quay crane was normally only done with dead vehicles. Runners were loaded via the ramp.

 

 

Edited February 16, 2019 by West Junction

[brian daniels]

A couple of the steel opens at Marchwood.

 

[brian daniels]

A couple of vans in Marchwood.

 

[brian daniels]

One of the German gauge wagons with UIC numbering loaded up a bit and one cut down with British numbering.

Edited February 16, 2019 by brian daniels

[brian daniels]

The mother load!

 

[brian daniels]

Had Southern EMU's stored there in 2004.

 

[Bon Accord]

48 minutes ago, brian daniels said:

The mother load!

 

 

Excellent pictures. It wasn't uncommon to see one of the WBs on a wagon in between refits as I remember, although I think I eventually took this one out to Cyprus circa 2008 via the good ship EDDYSTONE. MILLREEF wasn't it? Seem to remember that was the most modern one of the lot until the new generation arrived.