Irish Rail puts out tender for pre-owned DMU stock

[Talltim]

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=141241&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

I've put this in the UK forum as pretty much the only place to buy stock that will fit in the Irish loading gauge is from the UK. The class 185s look to be the target, although 170s have also been offered. If the 185s (or 170s) go then that will put the cat amongst the pigeons

Edited to make the URL actually an URL

Edited February 1, 2019 by Talltim

[JohnR]

I can see a call to send them Pacers coming....

[hexagon789]

It seems IÉ most want the 185s and they are the most likely class they found get. They are arguably the closest fit for what they want anyway.

[surfsup]

1 minute ago, hexagon789 said:

It seems IÉ most want the 185s and they are the most likely class they found get. They are arguably the closest fit for what they want anyway.

 

Indeed, it's reckoned that it the 185s are Irish Rail's main target as Porterbrook has offered a mix bag of Class 170s - but not enough, and Eversholt has had enough of the DfT's stumbling. While the 185s are themselves known for being heavyweight, there was apparently an offer on the table for them. Eversholt will see this as a warning to the DfT, use them or lose them as IE are it seems prepared to pay to have new Irish width bogies, and to either lease or purchase the fleet outright.    

[lmsforever]

They could have our units (Chiltern 165) we deserve a new build dmu .

[stewartingram]

As the 800s have diesel engines, are they likely to go over?

(Shame the 700s are not diesel powered too)

 

Stewart

[Talltim]

9 minutes ago, lmsforever said:

They could have our units (Chiltern 165) we deserve a new build dmu .

But are they coming up for the end of their lease?

[surfsup]

24 minutes ago, Talltim said:

But are they coming up for the end of their lease?

Neither Turbo fleet or 800 fleet would be going over to Ireland, the only suitable DMUs to be coming off lease this year is half the 185 fleet & a number of Class 170s. The problem is, there is not enough 170s and the only DMUs that satisfies I.E / The NTA's criteria are the 185 fleet. 

It's been widely known in the industry for a while now that IE weren't the only operator looking at the fleet, however due to the slow progress of the Dft and it's many franchise extensions, their owners Eversholt feel they've been faced with little option. Ireland wants them, The Dft are stumbling. If the deal is right, then Eversholt has every right to offer them to I.E and bye bye to 24 odd high quality DMUs from UK Rails. 

[Dava]

2 hours ago, lmsforever said:

They could have our units (Chiltern 165) we deserve a new build dmu .

They were new when you got them, would you like EMT's Voyagers instead [deep clean needed].

[TravisM]

Sounds like a great idea to send the 185’s over to Irish Rail as there doesn’t seem much interest from other TOC’s in taking them on once TPE have finished with them.  I don’t know how much credence there is in this but I’ve been told that they are “thirsty” and drivers are encouraged to isolate the center car engine to save on fuel costs.

[black and decker boy]

There is a suggestion from a respected journalist over on WNXX that DfT are blocking reuse of the 185s in its negotiations with Northern &TPE regarding the Liverpool - Nottingham services and insisting on new build.

 

id say a move to IE is therefore fair game and odds on

[black and decker boy]

12 hours ago, lmsforever said:

They could have our units (Chiltern 165) we deserve a new build dmu .

But the tender requires them in Ireland pretty quickly. The Chiltern franchise will need renewing and then new DMU building before you have anything to replace the 165s so I’d say that’s a min 4 years away. 

 

They are proposing to re-power the 165s which are decent trains above the sole bar and far superior to the motley collection of units used around Manchester & Leeds don’t you think? I’d say Chiltern would be wise to wait whilst the new CAF DMU settle into full service to see how good or bad they are.

Edited February 2, 2019 by black and decker boy

[jjb1970]

Is this another example of a train becoming popular when it is about to leave service? I've nothing particularly against the 185 but they were a bit lard assed thanks to carrying a lot of deadweight, had the usual Siemens ride (i.e. bad) and had inadequate capacity for a lot of the services they operated.

[Talltim]

Dunno, compared to the rest of the stock that runs in the same area they are well regarded. Too short yes, but apart from that they are years newer, more solidly built, cleaner and far better looked after than even Northern’s refurbished 158s (which quite frankly are worse than EMTs 158 before the refurbished them) let alone a 142. Even after Northern get their new stock they will still be running stuff worse than the 185s

Edited February 2, 2019 by Talltim

[hexagon789]

On 01/02/2019 at 18:35, surfsup said:

 

Indeed, it's reckoned that it the 185s are Irish Rail's main target as Porterbrook has offered a mix bag of Class 170s - but not enough, and Eversholt has had enough of the DfT's stumbling. While the 185s are themselves known for being heavyweight, there was apparently an offer on the table for them. Eversholt will see this as a warning to the DfT, use them or lose them as IE are it seems prepared to pay to have new Irish width bogies, and to either lease or purchase the fleet outright.    

 

I wonder of they will manage to obtain them now with the DfT blocking things.

[phil-b259]

49 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

 

I wonder of they will manage to obtain them now with the DfT blocking things.

 

You rather miss the point.

 

The current TOCs Northern / TPE want to KEEP the 185s but the DfT is blocking Northern / TPE from doing so - insisting that the franchise holders quire new build trains rather than re-use the 185s.

 

The owner of the 185s (Eversholt Leasing) is free to do what they want with them - and that includes selling / leasing them to the Irish regardless of what the DfT may say / do.

 

Thus the threat is Eversolt tell HM Government " Sod you and your prevaricating, we are sending them to Ireland - ours shareholders are fed up with the DfT playing games...

 

We have seen this before (albut within the UK) where Northern was unable  to renew the lease on a number of class 170 units as the DfT were still trying to make up their mind what they wanted from the new franchise - with the esult that the vehicle owners struck a deal with Chiltern being HM Governments back that saw Northern lose 6 new DMUs with zero replacements

[62613]

I don't think Northern have ever had stock as luxurious as the 170/185. They were all leased to TPE.

 

[AMJ]

Northern have some ex Scotrail 170's running Harrogate  loop services.

 

Ireland has had stock in the past from the UK.  The rake of Mk II stock used by RPSI are ex Gatwick express with re gauged wheel sets.  I'm sure that whatever IE manage to get their hands on will see Inchicore sorting out quite quickly.

 

Seems strange that IE disposed of the Mk III coaches a few years ago and there are many GM 201's stored that could have been used to augment the services quite easily.  There are a few Mk II in Northern Ireland that would need repaint an refurbishment before making operational but they are probably shot.

[Wickham Green]

1 hour ago, AMJ said:

Northern have some ex Scotrail 170's running Harrogate  loop services.

 

Ireland has had stock in the past from the UK.  The rake of Mk II stock used by RPSI are ex Gatwick express with re gauged wheel sets.  I'm sure that whatever IE manage to get their hands on will see Inchicore sorting out quite quickly.

 

Seems strange that IE disposed of the Mk III coaches a few years ago and there are many GM 201's stored that could have been used to augment the services quite easily.  There are a few Mk II in Northern Ireland that would need repaint an refurbishment before making operational but they are probably shot.

Er - No ....... the RPSI set are all former loco -hauled vehicles of NIR, IE & BR origin : the  'Irish Gatwick' coaches and generator car 911 are now in the care of the Society but are most definitely NOT in use.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Wickham Green
correction

['CHARD]

On 01/02/2019 at 23:57, jools1959 said:

  I don’t know how much credence there is in this but I’ve been told that they are “thirsty” and drivers are encouraged to isolate the center car engine to save on fuel costs.

 

'Eco' driving is most definitely encouraged, to take the edge off these very expensive to operate DMUs.

 

On 02/02/2019 at 08:29, black and decker boy said:

There is a suggestion from a respected journalist over on WNXX that DfT are blocking reuse of the 185s in its negotiations with Northern &TPE regarding the Liverpool - Nottingham services and insisting on new build.

 

 

Yet more evidence, as if it were needed, that DfT meddling is at times utterly ridiculous.  185s should sensibly be transferred to this service group.

 

12 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

 

I wonder of they will manage to obtain them now with the DfT blocking things.

 

Not DfT's call.  If Eversholt wishes to take up an offer from Eire, that's business.

[LaGrange]

3 hours ago, AMJ said:

Ireland has had stock in the past from the UK.  The rake of Mk II stock used by RPSI are ex Gatwick express with re gauged wheel sets.  I'm sure that whatever IE manage to get their hands on will see Inchicore sorting out quite quickly.

 

Some of the RPSI ones are ex Gatwick but not all of them. They have yet to use any of the ex Gatwick stock and continue to use their Mk2A/B/D set. This set is a mixture of former BR, NIR and IE coaches

 

IE have had ex BR Mk1/2A/3/3B Int stock in the past and NIR have had Mk2A/B/F stock

 

3 hours ago, AMJ said:

 

Seems strange that IE disposed of the Mk III coaches a few years ago and there are many GM 201's stored that could have been used to augment the services quite easily.  There are a few Mk II in Northern Ireland that would need repaint an refurbishment before making operational but they are probably shot.

 

IE disposed of the Mk3 fleet due to the leadership of their then CEO, a certain Richard Fearn formerly of BR, South Eastern Trains and Railtrack, who pushed for the 'Railcar Revolution' meaning that aside from Belfast and Cork expresses all long distance services are now in the hands of 22k railcar sets, which from a passenger point of view are excellent.

 

I very much doubt the 4 remaining ex Gatwick MK2's NIR have will return, laid up to rot after an expensive refurb, including the Mk2 DBSO which after £400k spent, never turned a wheel in service was quietly donated to the Downpatrick preserved line. Also the generator Mk2 for that set is now with the RPSI. Given NIR have no other Mk2 stock left, these 4 will be disposed of soon, either to the RPSI or Downpatrick

 

 

Its not the first time UK DMU sets have been rumoured to be exported to Ireland, there was talk over 10 years ago that surplus Class 222 sets would be used here but it never happened

[LaGrange]

1 hour ago, 'CHARD said:

Not DfT's call.  If Eversholt wishes to take up an offer from Eire, that's business.

 

Such an antiquated term, the country has not been officially referred to as 'Eire' since the early 1950's.............

['CHARD]

Just now, LaGrange said:

 

Such an antiquated term, the country has not been officially referred to as 'Eire' since the early 1950's.............

 

I love a bit of antiquated, me 

[TangerineWizards]

It would be a shame if these units are allowed to leave TPE/Northern. The refurbished ones are quite pleasant and would suit the proposed Liverpool-Nottingham.

 

I wonder if this will be a similar to the fall out when TPE's Class 170s were moved to Chiltern? The regional media were quick to complain and that was before the recent chaos with Northern. 

 

That said, the DfT seem to have the fantastic ability to absorb all types of bad press from multiple different angles at the moment! 

[Zomboid]

The DfT are clearly working on the basis that it's presently a good time to bury startling levels of idiocy, what with the news media being preoccupied with other matters at the moment.

 

Not that I begrudge IE some decent trains, but I predict the most likely outcome is newish DMUs for Ireland, and 150s for Northern...