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Bachmann 38-080 12 TON SOUTHERN 2+2 PLANKED VENTILATED VAN LMS GREY


sb67
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I have a Bachmann Southern 12 ton van, it's in LMS grey. Can anybody tell me what would have happened to it in BR days? I was going to paint a patch of black over the old number and add an m prefix number in it's p!ace, just wanted to check if that would be ok as I cant find any photo's.

Steve.

 

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The LMS grey is correct; many of these Ashford built vans were supplied to the LMS and some to the GW during the war under the auspices of the Ministry of Supply; timber was a strategically valuable material in short supply and Ashford had a large stock of it pre-cut and useless for anything else, so the LMS and GW were supplied by the Southern rather than being allowed to build their own. 

 

Many of these vans (which AFAIK were all unfitted as built) would have survived into the BR period by several years without being repainted, though they would eventually have been through workshops and turned out with the original numbers 'M' or 'W' prefixed, but it is very probable that most would have been upgraded at this time with vacuum brakes. so the repaint would have in the majority of cases been into Bauxite fitted livery.  They were built with 3 hole disc wheels.  Much depends on your period; I reckon you could get away with an LMS liveried example even as late as 1958 or so.  

 

Of course you're better off with photos but they are a bit thin on the ground for this early BR period; not many grey painted unfitted vans of any type survived beyond the early 60s.  Paul Bartlett's website is your best bet, and he is the acknowledged expert in such matters.  But there were examples in grey unfitted BR livery assuming that Bachmann's M523538 (don't ask me the 37- number) is correct, as I have one on my layout, along with an LMS liveried 521191 which I assume is the same model as yours.  I've weathered the LMS van more heavily to emphasise the point.

 

There were plenty of these vans still in service in the 1970s when I worked on the railway, but they were all fitted and in BR bauxite livery by then.

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3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

The LMS grey is correct; many of these Ashford built vans were supplied to the LMS and some to the GW during the war under the auspices of the Ministry of Supply; timber was a strategically valuable material in short supply and Ashford had a large stock of it pre-cut and useless for anything else, so the LMS and GW were supplied by the Southern rather than being allowed to build their own. 

 

Many of these vans (which AFAIK were all unfitted as built) would have survived into the BR period by several years without being repainted, though they would eventually have been through workshops and turned out with the original numbers 'M' or 'W' prefixed, but it is very probable that most would have been upgraded at this time with vacuum brakes. so the repaint would have in the majority of cases been into Bauxite fitted livery.  They were built with 3 hole disc wheels.  Much depends on your period; I reckon you could get away with an LMS liveried example even as late as 1958 or so.  

 

Of course you're better off with photos but they are a bit thin on the ground for this early BR period; not many grey painted unfitted vans of any type survived beyond the early 60s.  Paul Bartlett's website is your best bet, and he is the acknowledged expert in such matters.  But there were examples in grey unfitted BR livery assuming that Bachmann's M523538 (don't ask me the 37- number) is correct, as I have one on my layout, along with an LMS liveried 521191 which I assume is the same model as yours.  I've weathered the LMS van more heavily to emphasise the point.

 

There were plenty of these vans still in service in the 1970s when I worked on the railway, but they were all fitted and in BR bauxite livery by then.

 

Thanks Johnster, that is most helpful, I could get away with just adding the 'M' prefix and some heavy weathering in order to run it with late 50's very early 60's stock.

Steve.

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It could quite probably just have had it's new Mxxxxxx number etc added on black panels over the original grey. It would have depended on the condition of the paint. We were still in austerity/at war for the first few years of nationalisation. In any case there isn't a great difference between LMS and BR grey.

(LMS livery was dark bauxite by the time these were built, so I would have thought that would have been the livery (or SR brown?) in which they were supplied.)

Edited by Il Grifone
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These wagons were supplied unfitted ; fitted vehicles of the type had a patented SR design of 8- shoe brake rigging. When the unfitted vans were eventually fitted in the late 1950s, they received 4-shoe brakes, tie-bars between the W-irons, and either new Oleo buffers, or collars welded to the existing buffer housings. Views of these vans are pretty scarce, and are most likely to be found in the various books of photos by David Larkin. I've had a cursory search, and haven't found any yet, though I did find one of a similar vehicle, built for the GWR, and subsequently fitted. A list of vehicles that were fitted is to be found in 'Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era' Of the thousand + built, only a dozen or so didn't receive vac-brakes. I had a look for the number you quoted, but it seems to be just out of the ranges that were issued.

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7 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

It could quite probably just have had it's new Mxxxxxx number etc added on black panels over the original grey. It would have depended on the condition of the paint. We were still in austerity/at war for the first few years of nationalisation. In any case there isn't a great difference between LMS and BR grey.

(LMS livery was dark bauxite by the time these were built, so I would have thought that would have been the livery (or SR brown?) in which they were supplied.)

I'm working to the assumption that they were supplied in LMS grey from Ashford because that is what Bachmann, who generally get this sort of thing right, have modelled 521191 in.  It is the final 'austerity' LMS livery with the small LMS initials in the bottom left hand corner, not the big L M S on the sides with the M on the door.  I agree there is not much difference between LMS and BR grey; I think the LMS is a little lighter but they are all in the same ball park.

 

The initial instruction to the paint shops on nationalisation was to carry on as previously until further notice but not to apply anything that suggested ownership, the LMS initials in this case.  I think it was about 3 months before the prefixes and new sans gill numbers appeared, and they were initially applied direct to the grey paint; the black background panels came later after complaints by checkers of difficulty reading the numbers.  But I doubt that any of these recent build vans went though paintshops at this time.  

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From LMS Wagons,  Vol.1 (Essery).

400 vans built in two lots by the SR for the LMS

Lot 1334, Nos. 521140-521289, built 1942

Lot 1373, Nos. 523290-523539, built 1944,

.

The LMS changed from grey to bauxite in May 1936

.

Essery contains an official works photo of 521202, which appears to be in bauxite with small lettering in the bottom left corner, reading

LMS

12t

521202

.

Brian R.

Edited by br2975
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3 hours ago, br2975 said:

From LMS Wagons,  Vol.1 (Essery).

400 vans built in two lots by the SR for the LMS

Lot 1334, Nos. 521140-521289, built 1942

Lot 1373, Nos. 523290-523539, built 1944,

.

The LMS changed from grey to bauxite in May 1936

.

Essery contains an official works photo of 521202, which appears to be in bauxite with small lettering in the bottom left corner, reading

LMS

12t

521202

.

Brian R.

I would agree that this batch of wagons, should be in bauxite livery. It was a BR idea to have grey for unfitted & bauxite for fitted vehicles, but many get that wrong. Up to the change in 1936, everything was grey & after that bauxite - when if ever, repainted

 

As for the suggestion above that 'Bachmann usually get it right', is laughable. Umpteen 'LMS' wagons have appeared with Bachmann standard steel 10ft wheelbase fitted underframes, or sides with diagonal strengtheners.

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Appears all is not straight forward,  in order to fairly accurately run the wagon with 1950's / 60's stock could I just re number with a 'm' prefix or should the wagon be bauxite liveried?

Steve.

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An M prefix numbered Ashford wagon would be in BR bauxite livery if it had been reconditioned by BR and fitted with vacuum brakes.  My comment about Bachmann 'usually getting it right' was in regard to liveries; I was not referring to underframes, generic wagons in LMS livery, or the very poor Mainline derived LMS sliding door 12 ton van.

 

LMS 'bauxite' (I think the LMS called it brown) is a noticeably different colour from the BR standard livery or any of it's varieties from the 'couldn't get the paint right' era, a much darker and more red hued colour.

Edited by The Johnster
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I don't think there is any information as to what colour they were painted when built. There probably is only that one official photo.

I have built a Ratio SR van kit as one of the 'GWR' ones in well weathered BR grey (still to letter it!). Perhaps it should be vacuum fitted, but life's too short.,, (and the odd grey van adds variety anyway).

 

LNER bauxite was different from BR in being more red/orange and the LMS was more brown tinted, (The GWR  and SR kept their dark grey and chocolate brown throughout. However wartime conditions meant other colours might have been used (wooden wagons didn't get painted at all beyond the metalwork).

 

A different colour for fitted wagons was an LNER policy - unfitted were yet another shade of grey. It has been suggested that BR chose grey as there were large stocks of admiralty grey left over after the the war. This would explain its slightly bluish tint (or at least that;s how I see the colours).

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9 hours ago, sb67 said:

Appears all is not straight forward,  in order to fairly accurately run the wagon with 1950's / 60's stock could I just re number with a 'm' prefix or should the wagon be bauxite liveried?

Steve.

As others have pointed out, it is unlikely that any of these vans were painted grey in the first place.

 

I also concur with The Johnster, in that I'd think c1958 would be about as late as these are likely to have been "left alone" anyway. BR had been fitting up 10' wheelbase vans of 1930s/40s construction at a rate of knots for quite a while by then and the process was largely complete by 1960.

 

Withdrawals of 9' wheelbase vans, which could not be XP rated, even if built fitted, then accelerated in line with a widespread decline in goods traffic. 

 

Incidentally, Ashford built a similar batch of vans for the GWR during WW2, which received similar upgrading under BR.

 

John

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7 hours ago, The Johnster said:

An M prefix numbered Ashford wagon would be in BR bauxite livery if it had been reconditioned by BR and fitted with vacuum brakes.  My comment about Bachmann 'usually getting it right' was in regard to liveries; I was not referring to underframes, generic wagons in LMS livery, or the very poor Mainline derived LMS sliding door 12 ton van.

 

LMS 'bauxite' (I think the LMS called it brown) is a noticeably different colour from the BR standard livery or any of it's varieties from the 'couldn't get the paint right' era, a much darker and more red hued colour.

Bob Essery has consistently called it 'Bauxite' and his books give a detailed breakdown on how it was applied and the paint specification. That I'm afraid, is good enough for me!

 

Whether it was the same colour as that of BR Bauxite in the 1950s, I don't know, as it's out of period for me.

 

However for the particular wagons, as built by the Southern Railway, I can't see them being grey, weathered or not, as it was LMS practice from 1936, to have them bauxite, unless someone has evidence to the contrary.

BR modified wagons with vacuum brake gear, don't count!

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2 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

I don't think there is any information as to what colour they were painted when built. There probably is only that one official photo.

I have built a Ratio SR van kit as one of the 'GWR' ones in well weathered BR grey (still to letter it!). Perhaps it should be vacuum fitted, but life's too short.,, (and the odd grey van adds variety anyway).

 

LNER bauxite was different from BR in being more red/orange and the LMS was more brown tinted, (The GWR  and SR kept their dark grey and chocolate brown throughout. However wartime conditions meant other colours might have been used (wooden wagons didn't get painted at all beyond the metalwork).

 

A different colour for fitted wagons was an LNER policy - unfitted were yet another shade of grey. It has been suggested that BR chose grey as there were large stocks of admiralty grey left over after the the war. This would explain its slightly bluish tint (or at least that;s how I see the colours).

As the LMS had begun to use "bauxite" in 1936, and the SR, who built these vans six-to-eight years later, didn't use grey for their own stock (so would have to obtain it specially) I'd consider the works photo to be indicative of the reality unless presented with evidence to the contrary.

 

Therefore, if any did receive grey paint, it would have been applied after nationalisation but before the AVB fitting programme commenced.

 

The ones Ashford built for the GWR would (presumably) have been turned out in that company's darker shade of grey, which would have persisted until such time as BR added the vacuum brake, excepting any that had been repainted out of necessity earlier.  

 

There's also published photographic evidence that certain wagon works continued to apply something very like the LNER shade of bauxite to BR-design vans they constructed for quite some time. Whether it was a case of using up remaining stocks of paint, or the assertion of a little regional identity isn't clear.

 

John

 

 

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3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Bob Essery has consistently called it 'Bauxite' and his books give a detailed breakdown on how it was applied and the paint specification. That I'm afraid, is good enough for me!

 

Whether it was the same colour as that of BR Bauxite in the 1950s, I don't know, as it's out of period for me.

 

However for the particular wagons, as built by the Southern Railway, I can't see them being grey, weathered or not, as it was LMS practice from 1936, to have them bauxite, unless someone has evidence to the contrary.

BR modified wagons with vacuum brake gear, don't count!

 

No such colour as bauxite. It's correct title is Freight Stock Brown and is a totally different colour to what people call "bauxite". It's something which has come out of the modelling fraternity rather than the prototype, I'm afraid.

 

The Precision version is the closest, but even they call it bauxite for some strange reason. Notice it's more brown than orange.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/bigfour/lmsbigfour/14p39

 

Bauxite is a type of rock used in aluminium production and is a variety of colours.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauxite

 

 

Jason

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30 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

No such colour as bauxite. It's correct title is Freight Stock Brown and is a totally different colour to what people call "bauxite". It's something which has come out of the modelling fraternity rather than the prototype, I'm afraid.

 

Maybe in BR days it was called Freight Stock Brown, but for the LMS the colour in their official 1935 painting schedule was called "Mix 2(A/B) Bauxite Paint". Mix 2 was undercoat, Mix 2A was 2nd coat and Mix 2B was finishing coat, but all were called Bauxite, not surprisingly because it contained bauxite residue to get the colour. Hardly surprising that Phoenix named it correctly.

Edited by 57xx
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11 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

No such colour as bauxite. It's correct title is Freight Stock Brown and is a totally different colour to what people call "bauxite". It's something which has come out of the modelling fraternity rather than the prototype, I'm afraid.

 

The Precision version is the closest, but even they call it bauxite for some strange reason. Notice it's more brown than orange.

 

https://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/products/precisionrailway/bigfour/lmsbigfour/14p39

 

Bauxite is a type of rock used in aluminium production and is a variety of colours.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bauxite

 

 

Jason

In LMS Wagons Volume 2, page 152, Essery states 'The official change to bauxite in May 1936". So bauxite it is, for the LMS IMO. Other companies and BR may have called the same colour Freight Stock Brown, but not apparently the LMS.

 

I'd be interested in an official LMS reference to FSB, that differs from what Bob Essery has stated.

 

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'Bauxite' is certainly not just a modeller's term; we used it on BR in the 70s to describe the colour that was applied to fitted freight stock.  I am going to keep my (heavily weathered) LMS grey liveried Ashford van as it is, although if Bob Essery says it should be bauxite that's good enough for me, too.  I have several of these vans, including an unfitted one in SR brown livery; I find it remarkably difficult to think of this as an unfitted vehicle because I am conditioned to grey being used for unfitted stock!

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27 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

'Bauxite' is certainly not just a modeller's term; we used it on BR in the 70s to describe the colour that was applied to fitted freight stock.  I am going to keep my (heavily weathered) LMS grey liveried Ashford van as it is, although if Bob Essery says it should be bauxite that's good enough for me, too.  I have several of these vans, including an unfitted one in SR brown livery; I find it remarkably difficult to think of this as an unfitted vehicle because I am conditioned to grey being used for unfitted stock!

I'm not surprised of that, since you were obviously 'brought up' in BR days and so you were taught what was then current practice.

 

Now I'm too late for that period, but there is a lot to learn, from all sorts of sources, some 3rd party, some historic documents and many, many learned people that have at various times worked on the railways.

The latter doesn't stop some from being pompous (no way am I suggesting you are, The Johnster, but I've had my share of run ins from a small number of people on RMweb that most certainly are).

 

Like many questions that get asked on this forum, about what colour and similar questions, BEFORE giving a colour/method of operation etc, it needs to be found out where/when etc. Because as you would know, railways are not static and many things gradually evolve and what was once normal practice, is now against all basic rules. This isn't of course applicable just to railways, but all aspects of life.

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Bauxite as a mineral is the basis of both the LMS and BR versions. The BR one had other additions, and was Larne Quality Bauxite. The painting instructions of BR referred to it as Freight stock red - until quite recently, despite the colour varying. The instructions which explained coding carried by wagons refers to Bauxite - so one was the official painters usage, the other the BR managers!

 

Anyway, it is a mistake to suggest that VB conversion was going on before c1957 - these wagons were listed for conversion and they really got on with that plan. So, a good number should have been unconverted and repainted into BR Freight stock grey by then. As usual I think we don't know what period the OP is discussing!

 

I don't have many photos of these, and they are very late in their lives

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsvan/e20ac5ed7

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/lmsvan/e37510980

 

and a GWR one

 

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrvans/ea2eabb6

https://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrvans/e1679427c

 

Paul

Edited by hmrspaul
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5 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

LNER bauxite was different from BR in being more red/orange and the LMS was more brown tinted,

 

Just to continue the clarifications, LNER's colour is referred to as brown red oxide by Tatlow, the differences in colour and name were down to constituent components in the paint.

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13 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 My comment about Bachmann 'usually getting it right' was in regard to liveries; I was not referring to underframes, generic wagons in LMS livery, or the very poor Mainline derived LMS sliding door 12 ton van.

 

 

In this case they have got it wrong, it is a purely fictitious livery for that van.

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