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Penalty Fares


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54 minutes ago, Hobby said:

OK, then look at it another way... If you got on a bus you'd expect to pay, if you get a taxi you expect to pay, if you go into a shop to get something you expect to pay... So why do so many people think it is OK not to pay when travelling on a train... As i said earlier they gentleman's kids would be the exception on certain runs I work if they actually went to the booking office when they get off and buy a ticket... For many people they see it as a game and they win if they don't have to pay.... And in areas without barriers it's a growing number...

 

I'm not saying that people shouldn't expect to pay. And yes, I appreciate that having made a journey without paying, few people are going to pay at the far end if they don't have to. (I suspect they would do the same on a bus if they could get away with it - nothing special about trains here).

 

But the difference here is that for a long time the correct and only procedure was for the passenger to pay on the train or at the destination, and that (both in the OP's case and where I live) following installation of the ticket machine, staff continue to sell tickets on trains as if nothing has changed.

 

Is it so hard to understand that some (I suspect most) people don't realise that the presence of the ticket machine has converted what was previously the only way to pay into a criminal offence? Unlike the "you wouldn't buy food in a supermarket and eat without paying" arguments etc., the difference is that passengers are only doing what was previously the right thing.

 

In my mind, there is a big difference between the "But I didn't get fined for speeding last time" analogy earlier in this thread, and "But the guard offered to sell me a ticket the last ten times and never said that I should be using the machine". 

 

Maybe somebody can explain to this me. Why would a TOC not make it very clear when they install a ticket machine at a station that it has to be used, and ensure that guards also tell passengers that they should no longer be buying tickets from them on the train?

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44 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

I was once told by a guard who was going down a train incorrectly excessing people* that it was irrelevant what (their own company's) travel planner said about ticket validity. Now legally I suspect that it is the passenger's responsibility to have the correct ticket regardless, but really.....

 

* GNER had started enforcing an obscure rule on off-peak ticket validity, and to their credit had publicised the fact, albeit on a poster in a rather unhelpful place. But the guard seemed to have got completely the wrong end of the stick and was merrily excessing people with entirely valid tickets, ignoring protests that the passenger had been using that ticket for years by saying that the company hadn't been applying the rule before. 

 

I’m not sure how this would stand up though...

 

if the train company sells you a ticket for specifically advertised trains, then you have to take those listed trains, as thats the train specified. If the ticket issued isnt valid for that train.. how can it be sold, legally ?

 

The ticket was sold by the origin ticket office, at the time of travel, for the time of travel. (I showed GWRs website to illustrate the point, but its the same on Southern, Trainline and Network Rail...)

 

As i said, at Paddington it was GWRs own ticket office that validated the ticket, as it was valid... (they confirmed what every where says.. its valid).

 

Its the signs outside, the guards etc being advised its not valid.

 

In this instance, I, the passenger did re-check the validity, and it was valid... even if signage and platform staff were convinced it was not...

 

i’m assuming here there is a gap between GWRs policies and Network Rails policies.. which policy prevails ?

 

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46590.aspx

 

I have to assume Network Rails ticketing policy and that of the Booking office overrides that of the TOC and its onboard staff, as on the day that is what happened ?

 

This wasnt fare evasion, its not even a ticketting error.. the ticket IS valid and remains on open sale today... its GWR that would appear to be circumventing policy of tickets on open sale.

 

The provision exists in off-peak tickets to restrict “certain busy services”, GWR seems to be doing that with tickets originating at Paddington, but not applying it to “tickets via london”... I assume a higher policy exists for this type of sale, but the policy is being ignored.

 

It would be nice to get an “inside” viewpoint on this, it shouldnt be hard to confirm, the journey details are below and the tickets are on open sale. (this time from Nat Rails website), you can reserve seats too if you like.

 

 

A69D60BE-2E51-4B88-90B4-261F55736026.jpeg

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28 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 Unlike the "you wouldn't buy food in a supermarket and eat without paying" arguments etc., the difference is that passengers are only doing what was previously the right thing.

 

Ticket machines have been around for a long time now, that excuse wore thin many years ago. Bear in mind also that on the trains I work ALL passengers have had to walk past a booking office AND a ticket machine and still they fail to buy  a ticket. 

 

 

I'm backing out of this conversation, it is clear that some people will do anything to blame others for their own faults.

Edited by Hobby
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9 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Ticket machines have been around for a long time now, that excuse wore thin many years ago.

 

 

I'm backing out of this conversation, it is clear that some people will do anything to blame others for their own faults.

As your “inside” i’d be interested in your view on my above scenario ...

?

 

 

Heres further confirmations using the National Rail website, and the ticket would be issued by GWR...

 

But if you turn up at 1700/1715/1730 tonight, they will tell you its not valid and want a penalty fare,unless you do as I did... goto the ticket office at Paddington, get them to confirm and them rubber stamp as valid on your ticket.

 

E0C9570F-6965-4AD1-81B9-D87125B53280.png

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7 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Ticket machines have been around for a long time now, that excuse wore thin many years ago. Bear in mind also that on the trains I work ALL passengers have had to walk past a booking office AND a ticket machine and still they fail to buy  a ticket. 

 

  

I'm backing out of this conversation, it is clear that some people will do anything to blame others for their own faults.

To be fair, you appear to be bringing a different set of circumstances, no point getting grumpy just because your example is different to the OP's, in that the ticket machine had not been around for a long time.

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I was showing what actually happens, they were not different circumstances. People walk past a ticket machine, can't pay on the train (or won't) and get off at the other end and congratulate themselves on saving themselves paying the fare. Then I see a thread of other people trying to justify those actions... It beggars belief.

 

(I forgot to "hide" the thread so now I have. Please don't quote me as I won't be back!)

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2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

Ticket machines have been around for a long time now, that excuse wore thin many years ago.

 

Eh? Here we are talking about a station that has only recently acquired a ticket machine. 

 

4 minutes ago, Hobby said:

 

I'm backing out of this conversation, it is clear that some people will do anything to blame others for their own faults.

 

Fair enough. It's all a matter of opinion.

 

For the record, I do use ticket machines on platforms.

 

Where I live, most people don't, and given the mixed messages (posters saying in small print that you should use the machine, and guards who merrily sell tickets on trains) I don't blame them.

 

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2 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I was showing what actually happens, they were not different circumstances. People walk past a ticket machine, can't pay on the train (or won't) and get off at the other end and congratulate themselves on saving themselves paying the fare. Then I see a thread of other people trying to justify those actions... It beggars belief.

 

How curious.

 

I don't recall anybody saying anything of the kind.

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15 minutes ago, Hobby said:

I can't comment as I don't work for GWR. I suggest you write to them.

Ok.

I could write, but they would only respond to my specific circumstance, which is irelevent, and as I did not suffer because of it, and as i resolved it ahead of travel its irelevent to them. 

 

In otherwords it wouldnt change anything.

 

I’d Probably get a better response if I went to a journalist, but i’m not that way inclined.

 

At the end of the day an unfair situation exists, which could affect other travellers crossing london to GWR services.

 

ive entered Bromley, Watford and Ilford to Didcot, and all come up the same off peak is valid criteria for connections via London on the same Paddington fast services.

 

I also did try using the same origin (Sutton) to Milton Keynes, Peterborough and Colchester, but no such restrictions on off peaks seem to exist in corelation to London origin tickets for the same routes on fast services...

 

so it convinces me this is GWR acting in a manner thats unclear.

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While reading the OP, I noticed that the payment machine mentioned was card only & wondered how a younger person could have paid the fare?

The station's machine is card only. I used to take the train to London at 15 & to my closest town from younger that that.

 

Are payment cards of any kind available to under 16's? If not, how are they supposed to pay? I assume child fares are actually available for the route?

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6 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

While reading the OP

 

Something some posters are not seeming to be able to do whilst championing their own views.

 

17 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

How curious.

 

I don't recall anybody saying anything of the kind.

 

Certainly not the OP ......

 

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23 minutes ago, Pete the Elaner said:

While reading the OP, I noticed that the payment machine mentioned was card only & wondered how a younger person could have paid the fare?

The station's machine is card only. I used to take the train to London at 15 & to my closest town from younger that that.

 

Are payment cards of any kind available to under 16's? If not, how are they supposed to pay? I assume child fares are actually available for the route?

 

Yes there are ways that children can get payment cards. Whether they should have to get one in order to travel by train is another matter.

 

So far as I know neither the law nor conditions of carriage take into account the possibility that ticket facilities at a station may take limited forms of payment.

 

Where I live the posters at stations warning about ticketless travel make no mention of concessions for passengers unable to use the machines.

 

If you ask their customer service, the answer is that if paying cash it's OK not to use the machines, but that passengers should seek out the guard (not an unreasonable approach, in my view).

 

Of course guards will happily sell tickets in such circumstances, just as they do to people paying with a card who could have used the machines.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Coryton
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1 hour ago, Reorte said:

...

They'll see a machine with no means of taking cash and thus no reasonable means of payment suitable for them and expect to be able to pay by some other means.

....

 

With less than 40% of transactions involving cash these days, and the use of cash being even lower in some areas e.g. ticket purchase , the excuse of a machine not taking cash has worn out to the point of irrelevancy and isn't a valid reason not to have permit to travel - whether it be a ticket (paper or virtual), voucher, or pass.

 

The Railways Act 1844 (amended by subsequent Acts) set the requirements for tickets to be purchased prior to travel and I would have thought that 175 years is long enough for even the most obstinate person to have realised that you need to purchase a ticket ;) 

 

The need to have a valid permit to travel or ticket It is also written very clearly on the back of a railway ticket.

 

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The mischievous part of me wants to say just get rid of guards - then as occurs on the likes of GWR there isn't anyone to buy tickets off on the train and you have no choice but to purchase before boarding and any confusion disapears.

 

However in all seriousness, if a TOC changes its fares policy (a direct result of the terms of the latest franchise agreement by the way which aims to remove as many guards as possible and increase faire revenue by extending gating of stations and penalty fare schemes) then such a change not only needs to be prominently advertised the posters and audible announcements (on trains + stations) - it also requires a short 'period of grace where those transgressing the policy are given a stern warning before issuing fines.

 

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18 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

With less than 40% of transactions involving cash these days, and the use of cash being even lower in some areas e.g. ticket purchase , the excuse of a machine not taking cash has worn out to the point of irrelevancy and isn't a valid reason not to have permit to travel - whether it be a ticket (paper or virtual), voucher, or pass.

 

Wow! 

 

I'm glad that - at least round here - the train companies don't take such an extreme view.
 

How many people here have never had the experience of trying to use a card and finding that for some reason the transaction won't go through, I wonder? 

 

I suppose all parents whose children might ever need to catch a train need to sort out a prepayment card for them even though they can use cash everywhere else. Better make it two in case the first one doesn't work.

 

18 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

The Railways Act 1844 (amended by subsequent Acts) set the requirements for tickets to be purchased prior to travel and I would have thought that 175 years is long enough for even the most obstinate person to have realised that you need to purchase a ticket ;) 

 

The need to have a valid permit to travel or ticket It is also written very clearly on the back of a railway ticket.

 

 

Here we go again.

 

For "175 years" the rule has been that you don't have to have a ticket before getting on the train if there wasn't a way of buying one.

 

I seem to be in a minority here, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect passengers to know that the day a ticket machine appears at their station, buying a ticket on the train in the way they did the day before and indeed people have for the entire history of that station, has suddenly become criminal.

 

If the train company made an effort to publicise this fact and also not have staff carry on selling tickets on trains it would be different. But for reasons that I don't understood, they have (both here and it seems, where the OP lives) chosen to act in a manner designed to encourage people to get into trouble. Why would they do that, I wonder?

 

I don't see anybody here arguing that it isn't obvious that you should pay to travel by train. The question is when you should pay.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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OK, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth has lead me to seek out the horse's mouth ...

 

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares

 

So, it is quite clear that should you find yourself in a penalty fare zone (in red on the map) and you arrive at an unmanned station with coin of the realm (I am taking the mick here, a bit) then you should obtain a "Promise to Pay" ticket (note NR do not use the term Permit to Travel) from the machine and pay either on the train or at your destination. Failing to do this "MAY" (quoted from the NR website) result in a penalty fare.

 

So to answer the OP's question, remember that? is you are wasting your time appealing I am afraid. I think this was suggested in the first reply to the OP by the good Stationmaster

Edited by RedgateModels
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While I fully accept that there are a goodly number of dishonest people who deliberately evade paying, the railway industry does itself no favours with such a complex and inconsistent range of policies about fares and enforcement. It discourages a lot of people from using the railway at all. So much simpler to jump in the car knowing the price of petrol at the local garage.

 

On my most recent journey, I was surprised to find that two singles could now be had more cheaply than any available return ticket. And the outward ticket on a Sunday lunchtime was more expensive than the return during a Monday evening peak.

 

Ticket was thoroughly checked on SWR: Salisbury barrier, on-train, Vauxhall barrier. No on-train checks on Stansted Express but a large group of ticket collectors (6 at least) at the Airport. Seemed rather too many.

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16 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

The mischievous part of me wants to say just get rid of guards - then as occurs on the likes of GWR there isn't anyone to buy tickets off on the train and you have no choice but to purchase before boarding and any confusion disapears.

 

However in all seriousness, if a TOC changes its fares policy (a direct result of the terms of the latest franchise agreement by the way which aims to remove as many guards as possible and increase faire revenue by extending gating of stations and penalty fare schemes) then such a change not only needs to be prominently advertised the posters and audible announcements (on trains + stations) - it also requires a short 'period of grace where those transgressing the policy are given a stern warning before issuing fines.

 

 

I think the reason there is disagreement here is that of course adding a ticket machine to a station isn't, technically, a change in policy.

 

As has been pointed out (several times now) the rules always have been that you buy the ticket at the station if you can.

 

But so far as the normal passenger is concerned, it is a change in policy. It used to be OK to buy on the train (for over a century in some cases). Now it's not. Some people here clearly think that if passengers don't know the rules then that's just tough.

 

Personally, I think it's unreasonable to expect passengers to know and that - as you say - the TOC needs to warn them (and NOT to 'entrap' them by continuing to sell tickets on trains without any warning as if nothing has changed).

 

I do wonder if the split here is that those who actually work in the industry find it hard to imagine anybody not knowing the rules inside out, and those of us outside the industry can appreciate that most passengers don't?

 

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2 minutes ago, RedgateModels said:

OK, all this wailing and gnashing of teeth has lead me to seek out the horse's mouth ...

 

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/legal/penalty-fares

 

So, it is quite clear that should you find yourself in a penalty fare zone (in red on the map) and you arrive at an unmanned station with coin of the realm (I am taking the mick here, a bit) then you should obtain a "Promise to Pay" ticket from the machine and pay either on the train or at your destination. Failing to do this "MAY" (quoted from the NR website) result in a penalty fare.

 

So to answer the OP's question, remember that? is you are wasting your time appealing I am afraid. I think this was suggested in the first reply to the OP

 

Depends... there are quite a few things that have to be present in order for a penalty fare to be valid.

 

A notice on a web site on its own doesn't cut it.

 

From memory, there have to be clear signs on the station and on the train, for example.

 

And assuming everything is kosher, why on earth would a TOC have guards carry on selling to those without a "promise to pay" ticket without telling them they should now have one? (I'm taking it on faith that the OP is telling the truth about this - I can certainly believe it based on what happens in these parts).

 

It's almost as if they want people to end up with a penalty fare...

 

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12 minutes ago, Coryton said:

...

For "175 years" the rule has been that you don't have to have a ticket before getting on the train if there wasn't a way of buying one.

...

 

The rule for 175 year has been that you have a valid authorisation to travel (permit, ticket, warrant, pass,...) before you board the train or you purchase appropriately at the first opportunity - nothing has changed.

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2 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Depends... there are quite a few things that have to be present in order for a penalty fare to be valid..

 

 

Agreed, and it's possibly worth a pop to try to appeal, which I think the OP has done. I would expect all the other things you said to have been in place, notices on station s and trains in advance, guards reminding people paying on trains before hand and after implementation etc etc etc. Nothing in this topic has either confirmed or denied this though. 

 

Agreed that an absence of any prior warning etc does smack of entrapment and in this case the management would probably be even less likely to treat a claim favourably ........

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6 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

The rule for 175 year has been that you have a valid authorisation to travel (permit, ticket, warrant, pass,...) before you board the train or you purchase appropriately at the first opportunity - nothing has changed.

 

I agree that in a "rules and regulations" sense, nothing has changed. From the passenger's point of view, there has been a big change.

 

What is the mechanism by which you expect passengers to know that once a machine appears at a station it has to be used?

 

Not from the guards, because they carry on selling tickets as before without saying anything.

 

Do you think it's just common sense? (Dangerous concept, that)

 

As rail passengers, should they study the legislation and conditions of carriage? Look up the rules on the company web site?

 

In any case, if passengers see that guards are still coming down trains and selling tickets, why on earth wouldn't they think buying a ticket from a guard isn't still a reasonable thing to do?

 

In these parts, over 5 years on, most people are still buying on the train. 

 

I'm curious. Is there anyone here in the "tough luck - passengers should know the rules" camp who doesn't work on the railways? And anyone who can sympathise with passengers for not realising they shouldn't be buying tickets on the train who does?

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3 hours ago, Coryton said:

As I understand it, the guard is primarily responsible for safety and commercial duties come after that. 

Much depends, I believe, on whether the person on the train with the ticket machine is a guard or a revenue protection inspector.

 

A guard is indeed primarily responsible for safety and is not obliged to carry out commercial duties. Some TOCs even go so far as paying them commission to encourage them to sell tickets. Such a guard is entirely within their rights to sit in the cab and never speak to a member of the public, depending on company policies.

 

An RPI, on the other hand, is paid a (much lower) wage purely to check tickets and extract some form of payment from those not having them, and does not receive commission. If a train is carrying an RPI who isn't checking and selling tickets, then that RPI is costing money without bringing the company any benefit.

 

Confusingly, both guards and RPIs are sometimes officially called conductors, RPIs often get promoted to guards by underinformed passengers, and someone has invented the title of Train Manager. I'm still not sure whether a Train Manager is a guard with a fancy name or something else entirely/

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1 hour ago, WIMorrison said:

 

With less than 40% of transactions involving cash these days, and the use of cash being even lower in some areas e.g. ticket purchase , the excuse of a machine not taking cash has worn out to the point of irrelevancy and isn't a valid reason not to have permit to travel - whether it be a ticket (paper or virtual), voucher, or pass.

 

The Railways Act 1844 (amended by subsequent Acts) set the requirements for tickets to be purchased prior to travel and I would have thought that 175 years is long enough for even the most obstinate person to have realised that you need to purchase a ticket ;) 

 

The need to have a valid permit to travel or ticket It is also written very clearly on the back of a railway ticket.

 

"Less than 40%" is still an awful lot of cash transactions, and whilst long distance journeys may be even less likely to be cash than that I'd expect there to still be a significant number of cash transactions for local journeys. It is not reasonable IMO to expect people to pay be card even though lots do.

 

When the only means of buying a ticket on a lot of trains for quite a long time now has been to buy it on the train the idea that you absolutely must buy a ticket before travel has been eroded. No-one's disputing the need to buy a ticket at all - yes, lots of people do try to avoid doing so and I expect everyone here would condemn them for it.

 

There's not much point in printing a condition in small print on the back of a ticket you've not yet managed to buy! If something isn't common knowledge amongst the public then it needs to be prominently stated at the appropriate point.

 

edit: the station I was talking about earlier isn't actually in the penalty fares zone anyway.

Edited by Reorte
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