Penalty Fares

[Reorte]

49 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

 

The rule for 175 year has been that you have a valid authorisation to travel (permit, ticket, warrant, pass,...) before you board the train or you purchase appropriately at the first opportunity - nothing has changed.

"Purchase at the first opportunity" - I don't think anyone's got a problem with that!

 

If the answer to card-only machines is to get some form of promise to pay notice that needs to be stated prominently on the machine (and on any platforms without a machine, assuming there isn't an open ticket office). I'd regard anything less as unreasonable since, as I said earlier, I'd be very surprised if most people even knew such a thing existed.

[RLBH]

4 minutes ago, Reorte said:

When the only means of buying a ticket on a lot of trains for quite a long time now has been to buy it on the train the idea that you absolutely must buy a ticket before travel has been eroded. No-one's disputing the need to buy a ticket at all - yes, lots of people do try to avoid doing so and I expect everyone here would condemn them for it.

And, indeed, for some time the railway was heavily promoting the idea that one could (and in many cases, could only) be bought on the train - and one needed cash in order to be able to do so until very recently.

 

To decide in a very short period of time that this situation would be completely reversed, then fail to adequately communicate the new method of working or provide a transition period, is the sort of thing that brings the railways into disrepute.

[Wheatley]

2 hours ago, Reorte said:

If the answer to card-only machines is to get some form of promise to pay notice that needs to be stated prominently on the machine (and on any platforms without a machine, assuming there isn't an open ticket office).

 

As well as the very obvious yellow and black DR posters on every platform at Northern's penalty fares stations, and the slightly smaller metal notices screwed to the fence at each entrance to each station, the newer glass panel machines have either the same black and yellow penalty fares instructions or a yellow and black "No ticket ? No problem !" message covering almost the whole of the  screen explaining how to get a PTP out of the machine

 

 http://ltjournalism.com/penalty-fares-hit-yorkshire-trainlines-ready/

 

http://penline.co.uk/promise-to-pay-notices/

 

The Harrogate and Wharfedale lines are festooned with them, they're really quite hard to miss.

[Coryton]

10 minutes ago, Wheatley said:

 

As well as the very obvious yellow and black DR posters on every platform at Northern's penalty fares stations, and the slightly smaller metal notices screwed to the fence at each entrance to each station, the newer glass panel machines have either the same black and yellow penalty fares instructions or a yellow and black "No ticket ? No problem !" message covering almost the whole of the  screen explaining how to get a PTP out of the machine

 

 http://ltjournalism.com/penalty-fares-hit-yorkshire-trainlines-ready/

 

http://penline.co.uk/promise-to-pay-notices/

 

The Harrogate and Wharfedale lines are festooned with them, they're really quite hard to miss.

 

That sounds reasonable.

 

Nothing as overt as that here...and no penalty fares in name so I suppose they don't have to.

 

 

[mezzoman253]

3 hours ago, Reorte said:

"Less than 40%" is still an awful lot of cash transactions, and whilst long distance journeys may be even less likely to be cash than that I'd expect there to still be a significant number of cash transactions for local journeys. It is not reasonable IMO to expect people to pay be card even though lots do.

 

When the only means of buying a ticket on a lot of trains for quite a long time now has been to buy it on the train the idea that you absolutely must buy a ticket before travel has been eroded. No-one's disputing the need to buy a ticket at all - yes, lots of people do try to avoid doing so and I expect everyone here would condemn them for it.

 

There's not much point in printing a condition in small print on the back of a ticket you've not yet managed to buy! If something isn't common knowledge amongst the public then it needs to be prominently stated at the appropriate point.

 

edit: the station I was talking about earlier isn't actually in the penalty fares zone anyway.

Or making an automatic announcement regards valid tickets, on the train, just as the doors have closed and it's moving off. 

 

Rob

[Coryton]

8 minutes ago, mezzoman253 said:

Or making an automatic announcement regards valid tickets, on the train, just as the doors have closed and it's moving off. 

 

Rob

 

I'd prefer not yet more automated announcements..

 

And it's a bit late once you're on the train!

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

 

As well as the very obvious yellow and black DR posters on every platform at Northern's penalty fares stations, and the slightly smaller metal notices screwed to the fence at each entrance to each station, the newer glass panel machines have either the same black and yellow penalty fares instructions or a yellow and black "No ticket ? No problem !" message covering almost the whole of the  screen explaining how to get a PTP out of the machine

 

 http://ltjournalism.com/penalty-fares-hit-yorkshire-trainlines-ready/

 

http://penline.co.uk/promise-to-pay-notices/

 

The Harrogate and Wharfedale lines are festooned with them, they're really quite hard to miss.

Fair enough then, if that's what they do have.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Reorte

[royaloak]

8 hours ago, Reorte said:

I very much doubt many people at all have a clue such a think as a permit to travel exists (I'd never heard of it before this thread). They'll see a machine with no means of taking cash and thus no reasonable means of payment suitable for them and expect to be able to pay by some other means.

 

There's a danger of going down the path of "we've provided some means, that it's a PITA or you didn't read the smallprint isn't our problem." Reminds me a just a little of the railway classic of only running one train a day at 3 am from a station then saying it's there's simply no demand for that station. The railway's providing a service.

But in this case it appears to be a case of ignoring the TVM rather than it being out of order.

[royaloak]

7 hours ago, Hobby said:

I can't comment as I don't work for GWR. I suggest you write to them.

Many many people have written to GWR about the incorrect announcements about off peak tickets and I would insist on being let through because the restrictions only apply to OP tickets starting from Paddington, not OP tickets from other stations where Paddington is only an interchange point.

 

I have also brought it up on a few meet the manager sessions but do they listen?

 

If you are delayed on your journey then you can claim delay repay citing staff preventing you accessing your intended service with your valid ticket due to incorrect training which is in breech of the Network Rail Conditions of Travel.

[Andrew1974]

Hi everyone,

 

Thanks for all your input, I never expected so many replies.

 

I have sent an appeal in, I’ll report back the outcome.

 

In reply to some of the points made I would like to reiterate the following.

 

Prior to Oct there was no way to purchase a ticket other than on the train.

Employees continue to sell tickets on the train without mentioned the change.

Whilst signs at the station are clear that you should buy a ticket if you can, the machine is card only and the permit to travel option for those wanting to pay by cash is less than clear to me, so how a 16 year old is meant to work it out is beyond me (especially when my 16 year old sometimes lacks in the common sense front).

 

Also relevant in this case is the Penalty Fare Notice does not actually comply with the law (bit of a gaffe by Northern on that one I think) and the ticket machine a few hours later ( when we went to the station to look at the signs) was damaged making it nigh on impossible to use even if you tried (which I admit, my son did not due to some of the points raised above), anyway we will see how it goes.

 

 I suspect it would have been cheaper in terms of my time to just pay the £20...but the approach by Northern just seems wrong to me.

 

Thanks again for your comments.

 

Andrew