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AC Electrics in Multiple?


Grumbleweed
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The 86/0 and 87 had m/u systems from the 1970's

 

From the mid 1980's all 86, 87 then 89+90+91+92 had a form of TDM which was derived, but not the same as that fitted to 47/7s. This should be compatible between all fitted locos and DVT/refurbished DBSO.

 

AFAIR 81-85 were never fitted with m/u system in service.

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The class AL6/86 never had multiple cables when built, neither did the 81-85. 87s were built for multiple working over Shap and Lockerbie.

 

Later mods to the 86 variants I believe use the TDM coach lighting jumpers for multiple control. 

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11 minutes ago, luckymucklebackit said:

I have a photograph of a pair of class 85s running lE to pick up a freightliner service form Coatbridge Freightliner terminal, the two locomotives worked the service south, so how would they have been able to do this if no multiple working cables were installed?

 

They might have been worked in tandem, with a driver in each loco.

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Hi Folks,

 

All of the above is indeed accurately described.

 

All I may add is that any photos of trains with two of the early AC Electrics at its head would either be a double headed working with a driver in each locomotive or that one locomotive is failed and that the other is assisting. The clue when looking at photographs is whether or not both pantographs are in the up position.

 

Gibbo.

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1 hour ago, luckymucklebackit said:

I have a photograph of a pair of class 85s running lE to pick up a freightliner service form Coatbridge Freightliner terminal, the two locomotives worked the service south, so how would they have been able to do this if no multiple working cables were installed?

 

 

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

They might have been worked in tandem, with a driver in each loco.

 

Yes that is exactly what they did do although drivers hated it because if you were on the trailing locomotive at night you got blinded by arcs from the leading locomotive pantograph.  

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On 11/02/2019 at 20:46, roythebus said:

The class AL6/86 never had multiple cables when built, neither did the 81-85. 87s were built for multiple working over Shap and Lockerbie.

 

Later mods to the 86 variants I believe use the TDM coach lighting jumpers for multiple control. 

86/0 then 86/3 and 4 had the same system as the class 87 for multiple working, this predated TDM through the coach's RCH cables by around a decade. There are photos out there that at first glance appear to be a pair of 87s or a pair of 86s that are in fact one of each but I can't say I've seen a ton of them.

Edited by ChrisH-UK
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There's a wonderful photo on the front cover of Chris Shaw's excellent book "Rail Portfolios 13 - The AC Electrics " showing 87 010 and 86 436 working in multiple at BSC Hardendale Works in 1987.  both pantographs raised nice and high.  87 010 with a single arm Breknell Willis, and 86 436 with a Stone Faiveley.

 

This book is a "must" for AC Electric enthusiasts.  Out of print now, but often available pre-owned e.g.  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rail-Portfolios-No-13-AC-Electrics-AC-Electrics-No-by-Shaw-Chris-Hardback/303041253064?epid=91979783&hash=item468eaa8ec8:g:eN0AAOSwp3dcTmxq:rk:2:pf:1&frcectupt=true

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10 hours ago, Grumbleweed said:

Thanks for all the responses! So in answer to my original question, an 86 and a 90 were never possible in multiple, controlled from one cab, but lots of other possibilities existed, and happened. Thanks!

 

I don't recall ever having seen an example but in theory at least an 86 and a 90 is possible using TDM.

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On 12/02/2019 at 01:12, Bomag said:

The 86/0 and 87 had m/u systems from the 1970's

 

From the mid 1980's all 86, 87 then 89+90+91+92 had a form of TDM which was derived, but not the same as that fitted to 47/7s. This should be compatible between all fitted locos and DVT/refurbished DBSO.

 

AFAIR 81-85 were never fitted with m/u system in service.

 

92s don't have TDM

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20 minutes ago, DY444 said:

 

I don't recall ever having seen an example but in theory at least an 86 and a 90 is possible using TDM.

 

They do do occasionally work together in multi on FL, but not often.

When they do, the 86/6 is almost always leading and there is a very good reason for this. The 90 has thyristor control, the 86 has a tapchanger. Whacking a 90 wide open will cause the tapchanger on the 86 to have a fit of the heebie-jeebies (overload etc) so the preference is always 86+90 rather than 90+86.

 

I have driven such a combo on the main line, 90 leading but this is extremely unusual.. On the yard it's a different matter, low speed moves etc.

In either case, you need to be very gentle with the Skoda power handle.

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16 hours ago, E3109 said:

Quite a few pics on Flickr of 86/90 in multi such as this one.

 

86639, 25 June 2014

 

And that nicely shows the blanking plates over the earlier (Pre-TDM) MU cable apertures that were fitted to 87s, D400s, etc.

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On 13/02/2019 at 17:07, ChrisH-UK said:

86/0 then 86/3 and 4 had the same system as the class 87 for multiple working, this predated TDM through the coach's RCH cables by around a decade. There are photos out there that at first glance appear to be a pair of 87s or a pair of 86s that are in fact one of each but I can't say I've seen a ton of them.

I did an overnighter at Carlisle back in 1982 or 1983 and there were plenty of mixed doubles, in fact probably more mixed than pairs.

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On 13/02/2019 at 13:21, DY444 said:

 

 

Yes that is exactly what they did do although drivers hated it because if you were on the trailing locomotive at night you got blinded by arcs from the leading locomotive pantograph.  

 

Which is why in the earlier era the leading loco broke with the usual convention and ran with its front pan up.

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5 hours ago, 298 said:

 

Which is why in the earlier era the leading loco broke with the usual convention and ran with its front pan up.

 

The complaints I'm referring to are from the mid 70s which is a decade after the second pans were removed from those locomotives that had them.  Double heading was much more common once the electrification was extended beyond Weaver Junction.  Before 86s had MU equipment fitted the preferred option was to use 87s but this wasn't always possible hence the need for tandem working.

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