Locations where the SR and WR/GWR met?

[DCB]

If its to be a terminus then I think Weymouth is the only place mainline trains of the SR and GWR both terminated.  It was a dismal little place in GW /SR days and only got tarted up with decent length platforms post war. Many expresses were quite short pre war and the most important trains used the Dock station.

The ex GWR Cheltenham St James terminus station had southern region trains from the MSWJR terminating once a day (except sundays) after 1957 ish, prior to that they terminated at the ex LMS  through station and started from the carriage sidings immediately north of that station.  At the other end they terminated at Southampton Terminus as did the Didcot Newbury and Southampton so there would have been quite a few GW trains there daily as well as SR, but pre war you are looking at GW Bulldogs and Dukes and the various ex LSWR 4-4-0s pretty much none of which are available RTR, Post war there were Manors, 43XX on the MSWJR until 1957, at which point Eastleigh U's took over,  and 2251's on the DNS  which are availabe, shame about the U ( just renumber an N no one will notice, all SR locos look the same to a GWR man)

Reading to Didcot on the GW main line saw SR trains every day, engines changed at Oxford to GW locos,  Oxford like Cheltenham LMS had only 2 through platforms plus a bay (or 2) so some pretty swift operating was required.

Exeter St Davids and Pymouth North Road had both SR and GW trains heading for the same places but going in opposite directions, but if you want a terminus it looks like you  are stuck with  Weymouth or Southampton Terminus.

Edited February 14, 2019 by DavidCBroad

[Nick Holliday]

Nobody seems to have mentioned Winchester Chesil station. That was built as a terminus, and only became a through station when the connection to the LSWR was made, so perhaps, by changing the route of the connection this could be made to fit the bill.

If you want a proper GWR terminus with a Southern intrusion, try Paddington, the LBSC ran, for a short period, trains directly from there.

Don't forget that there were a number of through Southern services that ran considerable distances over GWR metals, other than to Oxford, such as Brighton and Portsmouth to Bristol and Cardiff, and the route learning exercises across Devon.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Salisbury is another place that the SR and WR were regularly seen together.  From Quidhampton to almost the station approach, the SR and WR had separate running lines, and I even heard that they had their own platforms at the station up until the end of steam but I stand to be corrected.

 

Salisbury had its own GWR passenger station (terminus) until c1930 when all GW trains were diverted into the SR station. I don't think that there were any specific platforms.

The GW station remained for goods traffic and the building still stands.

I like David's Oxford terminus station although it would be a big Minories.

The Oxford & Aylesbury station (GC/Met Jt} at Magdalen Bridge is a very interesting idea but not for the GW/SR. 

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

If its to be a terminus then I think Weymouth is the only place mainline trains of the SR and GWR both terminated.  It was a dismal little place in GW /SR days and only got tarted up with decent length platforms post war. Many expresses were quite short pre war and the most important trains used the Dock station.

The ex GWR Cheltenham St James terminus station had southern region trains from the MSWJR terminating once a day (except sundays) after 1957 ish, prior to that they terminated at the ex LMS  through station and started from the carriage sidings immediately north of that station.  At the other end they terminated at Southampton Terminus as did the Didcot Newbury and Southampton so there would have been quite a few GW trains there daily as well as SR, but pre war you are looking at GW Bulldogs and Dukes and the various ex LSWR 4-4-0s pretty much none of which are available RTR, Post war there were Manors, 43XX on the MSWJR until 1957, at which point Eastleigh U's took over,  and 2251's on the DNS  which are availabe, shame about the U ( just renumber an N no one will notice, all SR locos look the same to a GWR man)

Reading to Didcot on the GW main line saw SR trains every day, engines changed at Oxford to GW locos,  Oxford like Cheltenham LMS had only 2 through platforms plus a bay (or 2) so some pretty swift operating was required.

Exeter St Davids and Pymouth North Road had both SR and GW trains heading for the same places but going in opposite directions, but if you want a terminus it looks like you  are stuck with  Weymouth or Southampton Terminus.

 

As you say, Weymouth was a strange little station until rebuilt. Not unreasonable to create a model of how it might have been if rebuilt in the early 20th century.

 

Also a good point about the longer trains being Channel Island boat trains. So the town station could justifiably be quite compact with trains limited to 8 coaches.

 

[melmerby]

13 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Anyway, this is my take on Oxford's possible railway alternative

 

In later days the LNWR built a spur across to the GWR Main Line north of Oxford allowing through running from there to the south.

Ocassionaly one of these workings would go via the GWR terminus station where the LNWR/LMS engine would be replaced by a SR one for the journey south.

That gives you LMS as well.

Throw in the connections from the GWR to the GCR and you can chuck in LNER as well just like the real Oxford station.

Don't forget Rule 1 applies.

[rab]

13 hours ago, autocoach said:

GWR and WR Passenger services from Bodmin had running rights through Boscarne Junction into Wadebridge and then down the Camel Estuary to Padstow which is a small compact terminal. No engine shed but there was a turntable.  The GWR used a B-Set and Prairie. There was a wonderful article in the old Wild Swan GWR Journal a few years back that described this service. The GWRJ article induced me to switch from modeling GWR Brixham to modeling SR Padstow. What Brixham and Padstow had in common was they were both fishing ports. Fortunately between Kernow, Hornby and Bachmann I have been able to acquire nearly all the locomotives and passenger equipment needed to replicate Padstow in the summer of 1947.  This year's Hornby program will add the early SR Bulleid coaches and SR diagram 1543 brake vans. Oxford even helped with a green Southern National Bedford OB coach with a destination board of Padstow. Padstow was a single platform station but was the furthest final terminus of the Southern's Atlantic Coast Express from London Waterloo reduced to 6 coaches but hauled by a West Country Air Smoothed pacific.  Mainline style service with a short train at what was essentially a branch line terminal. 

Did the GWR actually run to Padstow? My recollection is that they ran Bodmin Road to Wadebridge only and Wadebridge to Padstow was Southern.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 minutes ago, rab said:

Did the GWR actually run to Padstow? My recollection is that they ran Bodmin Road to Wadebridge only and Wadebridge to Padstow was Southern.

 

I think that is right. But not at home with reference books to check it out.

 

ISTR seeing GW locos and stock at Padstow in photos but in BR days.

[rab]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that is right. But not at home with reference books to check it out.

 

ISTR seeing GW locos and stock at Padstow in photos but in BR days.

I was going to add that in BR days it could well have got mixed up, panniers hauling ex southern stock, N class and even possibly Beatties on ex GWR stock

[caradoc]

13 minutes ago, melmerby said:

In later days the LNWR built a spur across to the GWR Main Line north of Oxford allowing through running from there to the south.

Ocassionaly one of these workings would go via the GWR terminus station where the LNWR/LMS engine would be replaced by a SR one for the journey south.

That gives you LMS as well.

Throw in the connections from the GWR to the GCR and you can chuck in LNER as well just like the real Oxford station.

Don't forget Rule 1 applies.

 

Wasn't the direct running connection between the LNWR (LMS) and GWR lines at Oxford a World War 2 development ? Before then I believe the only link was via sidings. The connection was replaced by BR with a single lead junction at Aristotle Lane, and has now been replaced again by a double line link. 

 

Really interesting ideas from Pacific231G; A GWR terminus at Oxford would certainly have sorted the through traffic congestion which has bedevilled the place for, well, forever, but I wonder (if it still existed today) whether through passenger trains would simply bypass Oxford, leaving it something of a backwater like Gloucester ? Or perhaps BR would have closed the terminus, flogged the valuable land, and built a Parkway station on the through route.

 

 

[Wickham Green]

9 hours ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

There was a batch of pannier tanks allocated to the Southern for working empty stock to and from Waterloo at one point in the later 50s/early 60s. 

....... most, if not all, transferred to Nine Elms from Folkestone when the - late lamented - Harbour Branch was electrified. ( Now, THAT's a terminus with SR & WR locos that's not been mentioned above ! )

[Nearholmer]

Padstow was transferred to BR(W) control eventually, and after that the trains from Bodmin were sometimes hauled by Prairies, I think, and before that a few Panniers were actually allocated to BR(S). But, that can’t have lasted long. The 'disused stations' website coverage of Padstow is generally brilliant, but to me seems rather ambiguous when it comes to through trains/coaches, let alone locos, beyond Wadebridge pre-1948. All the pre-1948 photos I've seen show LSWR/SR locos and stock at Padstow, but one would probably need to delve deeply to find the full details.

 

The Seaton Branch is another one where a model can be used to run ‘enemy’ locos and stock, because that was worked by ex-GWR locos for a short time. The same probably applies to the Exmouth area lines, but I’m less sure.

Edited February 14, 2019 by Nearholmer

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Padstow was transferred to BR(W) control eventually, and after that the trains from Bodmin were sometimes hauled by Prairies, I think, and before that a few Panniers were actually allocated to BR(S). But, that can’t have lasted long. The 'disused stations' website coverage of Padstow is generally brilliant, but to me seems rather ambiguous when it comes to through trains/coaches, let alone locos, beyond Wadebridge pre-1948. All the pre-1948 photos I've seen show LSWR/SR locos and stock at Padstow, but one would probably need to delve deeply to find the full details.

 

The Seaton Branch is another one where a model can be used to run ‘enemy’ locos and stock, because that was worked by ex-GWR locos for a short time. The same probably applies to the Exmouth area lines, but I’m less sure.

The GWR STTs, including winter 1947/48  (STT = Service Timetable, i.e. WTT in the language of lesser railways)  showed GWR trains only going as far as Wadebridge.  incidentally the 1947 ST refers specifically to GWR trains calling at Rifle Range Platform if required (aka Shooting Range Platform).

[Pacific231G]

6 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Wasn't the direct running connection between the LNWR (LMS) and GWR lines at Oxford a World War 2 development ? Before then I believe the only link was via sidings. The connection was replaced by BR with a single lead junction at Aristotle Lane, and has now been replaced again by a double line link. 

 

Really interesting ideas from Pacific231G; A GWR terminus at Oxford would certainly have sorted the through traffic congestion which has bedevilled the place for, well, forever, but I wonder (if it still existed today) whether through passenger trains would simply bypass Oxford, leaving it something of a backwater like Gloucester ? Or perhaps BR would have closed the terminus, flogged the valuable land, and built a Parkway station on the through route.

 

 

Tours and Orleans, both Cathedral cities of comparable size to Oxford, still have such an arrangement, as until 1980 did Biarritz and a couple of other places , with the main line by passing their city centres and a spur-often the original main line- to a Centre Ville (downtown) terminus. Long distance through trains, especially TGVs, don't generally go to these termini but use a through station (Les Aubrais for Orleans and Saint-Pierre-des-Corps for Tours. There is a Navette (shuttle) between Tours and St. Pierre that connects with long distance trains but only when there isn't a conveniently timed  local train as all trains from Tours stop at St. Pierre. Orleans is slightly more complex in that all trains to Paris (Austerlitz)  stop at Les Aubrais but those from Orleans going down the Loire valley to Tours and Nantes don't go through it.

 

In the unlikely event that the GWR's through main line to Birmingham and Worcester had been pushed out towards the city limits (Parliamentary shennanigans from the LNWR's supporters perhaps?) such an arrangement would likely have pertained with Oxford (Botley Rd or simply West) becoming of rather more importance. The terminus might eventually have gone the way  of Plymouth Millbay but my Botley Road station would have been much further from the city centre than Plymouth North Road so Oxford's tourist and other foot traffic might have made that far less desirable. This would be  especially true if the GWR had been competing  with the Metropolitan Railway's fast trains to London via Aylesbury whose St. Clements terminus would have been about the same distance from Carfax, Oxford's city centre crossroads, as the real Oxford Station.  The GWR's original terminus was about half a mile from Carfax so rather closer than the present station but not enough to give it any great advantage over it. My Oxford (Botley Road) station is between a mile and a quarter and two miles from the centre of Oxford.

 

Reading General is not of course a terminus but, during my trips to watch the the last of steam and in later years, I remember that certain trains from Oxford to the Southern Region bypassed Reading General and only stopped at Reading West while others went into Reading General and reversed. Though they passed through it I don't think these trains stopped at Reading West) .    

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Pacific231G

[JohnR]

I think if the OP is wanting an urban terminus with both GW/SR traffic, then he may need to bend history and model a "what-if". Although its tricky to think of more than one or two believable scenarios. 

 

For the Plymouth area, how about "What If Friary was the location of a joint terminus?" Reasonably compact track plan, GW main line trains would have to reverse, and with local traffic too (Turnchapel/Plympton for the SR, Tavistock/Launceston for the GW). 

[Nearholmer]

Didn't Portsmouth Harbour (or was it Portsmouth & Southsea LL) have through trains from the GWR, both to South Wales and The Midlands? Both are compact locations.

 

Yes, see towards the end of this page, for instance https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/misc/headcodes.htm

 

At which periods GWR/BR(W) locos worked through, I don't know; I can only remember back as far as Class 31s.

 

And, has weymouth been mentioned yet?

Edited February 14, 2019 by Nearholmer

[adb968008]

Somerset and Dorset has GWR and SR (and LMS) motive power ?

 

heres a modified hall, at Eastleigh..

 

The site is a goldmine, here’s a few foreigners on someone else’s turf, including V2’s in Waterloo..

 

https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/SR-and-BRS/SR-Visitors-and/

Edited February 14, 2019 by adb968008

[Karhedron]

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Somerset and Dorset has GWR and SR (and LMS) motive power ?

 

The GWR only appeared late in the day when the line was handed over to the WR IIRC. Having said that, the OP was looking for a Terminus and Bath Green Park has been a popular prototype for modellers for a while.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

 

 

Reading General is not of course a terminus but, during my trips to watch the the last of steam and in later years, I remember that certain trains from Oxford to the Southern Region bypassed Reading General and only stopped at Reading West while others went into Reading General and reversed. Though they passed through it I don't think these trains stopped at Reading West) .    

 

For many years all the trains between the Oxford direction and the SR via Basingstoke ran via Oxford Road Curve (aka Reading West Curve) - I can't remember any coming into Reading general to reverse before the diesel era and only then when the cross-country route began to be developed.

 

AFAIK all the trains running via Oxford Road curve called at Reading West because it was effectively the station serving Reading for such trains.  When the Pines express was diverted that way following closure of the S&D Jt it definitely called at reading West and I know the York - Bournemouth called there because I g off it at Reading west one day on n my way home from York.  However a number of the Inter-Regional trains to the SR via Reading New Jcn and Guildford did not have advertised stops at Reading General although the pattern changed over the years

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Wasn't the direct running connection between the LNWR (LMS) and GWR lines at Oxford a World War 2 development ?

 

 

No

In the make believe world with a terminal station south of the city centre the LNWR did build a spur pre WW1

[Zomboid]

I haven't seen any mention of Yeovil Town, which I think saw trains from both. Not a terminus, but an alternative reality could be created for the Yeovil area.

 

Didn't Ilfracombe also have GWR trains, or have I imagined that?

 

Alternative realities could also be invented for the Brentford and Staines areas.

[Pacific231G]

30 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

For many years all the trains between the Oxford direction and the SR via Basingstoke ran via Oxford Road Curve (aka Reading West Curve) - I can't remember any coming into Reading general to reverse before the diesel era and only then when the cross-country route began to be developed.

 

AFAIK all the trains running via Oxford Road curve called at Reading West because it was effectively the station serving Reading for such trains.  When the Pines express was diverted that way following closure of the S&D Jt it definitely called at reading West and I know the York - Bournemouth called there because I g off it at Reading west one day on n my way home from York.  However a number of the Inter-Regional trains to the SR via Reading New Jcn and Guildford did not have advertised stops at Reading General although the pattern changed over the years

I'm sure they did. In fact a jaunt I did more than once  was to get one of the inter-regional trains (usually wih something Bulleid on the front) as far as Reading West, then the trolleybus to General and a train, preferably with a Castle, back to Oxford. ISTR that whether I did this or simply went to Reading General and back depended on the running of the south bound inter-regional train. This was a period when BR seemed very run down and The Pines express in particular was often severely delayed (by ninety minutes on several occasions) by the time it reached Oxford. You could easily waste most of the afternoon waiting for it. I don't think my memory is fooling me about getting off  a south coast train that was reversing at Reading but that may have been an unusual working or one of the Saturdays Only trains. 

[The Johnster]

We need, IMHO, to define what we actually want to mean by a meeting between the GWR/Western Region of BR and the Southern/Southern Region of BR, and those are not the same thing.  For instance, prior to nationalisation, the GWR had a line from Westbury to Salisbury, where there was at one time a GW terminus adjacent to the LSWR through station.  Post nationalisation, the boundary between Western and Southern Regions was set at Dilton Marsh Halt, between Westbury and Warminster, but in practice the only difference on the ground was that the station signage was in green not brown.

 

Do we mean places were GW and Southern locos and stock could be seen together, which pre BR meant running powers and post BR was extended to suit loco and crew working (so that Southern loco appeared in Bristol and Western ones in Portsmouth, for instance), or are we talking about physical connection between the company's lines, as at Barnstaple, Exeter, Andover, or Basingstoke?  

 

In BR days, Southern locos worked to Bristol, occasionally as far as Severn Tunnel Junction with freight traffic and even Cardiff, also to Oxford, and even Leicester via Oxford and GC, and Western Region worked over the Southern to Portsmouth or Redhill with Manors and 43xx

 

GWR locos were limited in their excursions onto other railways' territory by clearance issues, especially over outside cylinders.  The GC was built to a larger European gauge and could accommodate them, as could the Reading-Redhill section of the SECR, but not the Brighton or the LSW.

 

Through working of stock between the railways was another matter of course.  GW stock got to Brighton from Cardiff and Southern reciprocated, but the locos were changed at Salisbury.

[Nearholmer]

Good attempt to add structure, Johnster.

 

if I may be permitted to add complexity: not all through-running before nationalisation was by running powers. For instance, the SR had none to Oxford, I believe. Some was by mutual arrangement, for mutual convenience, even between these supposedly implacable rivals.

[Andy Kirkham]

A genuine might-have been is the LSWR's route to Bristol that would have accessed the city via the Bristol & North Somerset line from Radstock. Had this transpired one might speculate that the Somerset & Dorset's northern extension could have made a junction with this route somewhere in the vicinity of Farrington Gurney, instead of heading for Bath.

[melmerby]

53 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Good attempt to add structure, Johnster.

 

if I may be permitted to add complexity: not all through-running before nationalisation was by running powers. For instance, the SR had none to Oxford, I believe. Some was by mutual arrangement, for mutual convenience, even between these supposedly implacable rivals.

The SR locos I posted earlier on the outskirts of Birmingham pre WW2 would be by mutual agreement as the GWR & SR shared the running of the trains and some times it would be GWR loco and stock and other times SR locos and stock. It mentions in the captions that it was not normal for the SR engine to work all the way but not unusual.

I assume the Southern crews would have had to have route knowledge, especially as it was so far from SR metals to Birmingham.

 

It's also a long way for a relatively small engine (T9 etc.)!