Locations where the SR and WR/GWR met?

[brianusa]

No mention of Launceston yet.  While the Southern was a through route, the GW definitely stopped there.  So if you want a Southern main line and a GW branch, then this is the place.

 

     Brian.

[Nearholmer]

"Alternative realities could also be invented for the Brentford and Staines areas."

 

I can think of few places that would benefit more from alteration of their realities.

[autocoach]

12 hours ago, rab said:

Did the GWR actually run to Padstow? My recollection is that they ran Bodmin Road to Wadebridge only and Wadebridge to Padstow was Southern.

The answer is in the Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway and that Old GWRJ article. I cannot seem to find my copies of either at the moment. 

 

Ex GWR/WR service to Padstow was definitely several times a day in early 1950's.  

 

I think the BWT duty below came from the SREMG site.

 

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

9 hours ago, caradoc said:

 

Wasn't the direct running connection between the LNWR (LMS) and GWR lines at Oxford a World War 2 development ?

 

No

In the make believe world with a terminal station south of the city centre the LNWR did build a spur pre WW1

Possibly with street running? 

On the National Library of Scotland site the earliest 25inch maps for the area around and norh of the Oxford stations  which are from 1898 ,show a double track "LNWR loop" to the north of Oxford connecting the GWR's  Oxford- Worcester line near Yarnton with the LNWR's Oxford (Rewley Road)- Bletchley Line. This crossed over the GWR line to Banbury and Birmingham and had a level crossing where it crossed the  Woodstock Road (the crossing keeper's cottage is stil in use as a private house) before joining the Bletchley line a little before the present location of Oxford-Parkway station. The loop had once had a southern chord connecting it to the LNWR line towards Oxford so forming a triangle but this closed in 1865 and is marked as an "Old Railway" I'm not sure what purpose it would have served as all the maps show a yard connection between the GW and LNWR lines a little to the north of their respective stations though it doesn't appear that even in 1937 you could have run a train directly from the southbound LNWR line to the GWR. However the Cooke Atlas of the GWR in 1947 does show a New Junction between the two railways so I assume this was remedied during WW2. 

 

The GW terminus south of the city centre isn't make believe, though it's now quite hard to believe, but  it really did exist. It's continued existence certainly is fictional though. Frustratingly the earliest 25 inch map of that area was surveyed in 1873, just a year after it was finally closed as a goods station, so its site and the line leading it is just marked as an  "Old Railway". I'd love to know what its track plan was.  

Edited February 14, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Nearholmer]

That engine working notice illustrates Johnster's definitional point very well, because it is from the BR period and shows, I think, an ex-GWR 57XX, allocated to a BR(S) shed, working trains over a combination of ex-SR (mostly) and ex-GWR lines.

[adb968008]

If you wanted to pick a date in time however...the SR invaded the GWR in Birmingham Snow Hill..

 

27th April 1963 at Birmingham snow hill...

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-a-rebuilt-bulleid-pacific-at-birmingham-snow-hill-on-27th-april-1963-101895663.html

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1180.htm

 

Full list of Southampton - Snow Hill trains here..

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/630427br.html

 

read more here

 

http://www.confessionsofatrainspotter.org.uk/1963bulleidinvasion.htm

[Pacific231G]

This may be OT but while looking for references to the GWR terminus at Oxfiord I came upon Brunel's original prospectus map for the GWR. It shows the proposed short branch to Oxford so it's after the original proposed route that would have run  very close to Oxford with the main works -what became Swindon- at Oxford (The University would have loved that NOT) .

What makes it interesting is not the route between London and Bristol which seems to be the GWR we all know and love (escept that the London terminus is adjacent to Euston) but the proposed line to Exeter and Plymouth that comes off at Bath, follows the route of the S&D as far as Glastonbury before turning towards Bridgewater and Taunton after which it's the GWR as we know it to Exeter but then a direct inland route to Plymouth. It's signed by IKB but I don't know how much surveying he would have done on anything apart from the London to Bristol route.  

This would also have kept Bristol TM as a terminus, at least for some time though one can imagine a later line to Clevedon and Weston but  piossibly with Bristol as a reversing terminus. Adding to a terminus Temple Meads might give a very different result in extending the original train shed rather than leaving it a bit isolated from the curved through platforms.  

Edited February 15, 2019 by Pacific231G

[101]

40 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

This may be OT but while looking for references to the GWR terminus at Oxfiord I came upon Brunel's original prospectus map for the GWR. It shows the proposed short branch to Oxford so it's after the original proposed route that would have run  very close to Oxford with the main works -what became Swindon- at Oxford (The University would have loved that NOT) .

What makes it interesting is not the route between London and Bristol which seems to be the GWR we all know and love (escept that the London terminus is adjacent to Euston) but the proposed line to Exeter and Plymouth that comes off at Bath, follows the route of the S&D as far as Glastonbury before turning towards Bridgewater and Taunton after which it's the GWR as we know it to Exeter but then a direct inland route to Plymouth. It's signed by IKB but I don't know how much surveying he would have done on anything apart from the London to Bristol route.  

This would also have kept Bristol TM as a terminus, at least for some time though one can imagine a later line to Clevedon and Weston but  piossibly with Bristol as a reversing terminus. Adding to a terminus Temple Meads might give a very different result in extending the original train shed rather than leaving it a bit isolated from the curved through platforms.  

 Interesting map - I wonder why trowbridge was so important too

[Miss Prism]

I like the Reading to Henley branch !!!!

 

[melmerby]

You mean the Kennet & Avon canal?

Edited February 15, 2019 by melmerby

[Miss Prism]

I'm probably misreading the map and getting confused with the River Thames...

 

 

[RJS1977]

No, the Kennet & Avon canal ends at Reading. From there on it's the Thames (hence "Henley on Thames", not "Henley on Kennet and Avon Canal"!)

[Miss Prism]

I'm definitely warming to the idea of a Reading to Henley branch. Gradients might be a bit daunting though - it gets a bit wild north of Caversham.

 

[rab]

Again, not a terminus, but GWR and SR met at Exeter St. Davids, although I'm not sure if this was pre or post nationalisation.

i do remember reading though that down trains on the Western line

went through the station in the opposite direction to down trains on the Southern.

[Wickham Green]

6 minutes ago, rab said:

Again, not a terminus, but GWR and SR met at Exeter St. Davids, although I'm not sure if this was pre or post nationalisation.

i do remember reading though that down trains on the Western line

went through the station in the opposite direction to down trains on the Southern.

pre and post GROUPING ......... but initially LSWR rather than SR, of course.

 

Yes, down and up trains still operate in opposite directions .............................. and - in the good ol' days - when they got to your home town down trains arrived there from opposite directions too !.

Edited February 15, 2019 by Wickham Green

[pete_mcfarlane]

9 hours ago, 101 said:

 Interesting map - I wonder why trowbridge was so important too

What is a coaching town? In the days of stage coaches you had to change horses at regular intervals, so some small (by contemporary standards) towns were a lot more important than they are now. Stamford being the classic example. 

[St Enodoc]

13 hours ago, autocoach said:

The answer is in the Illustrated History of the North Cornwall Railway and that Old GWRJ article. I cannot seem to find my copies of either at the moment. 

 

Ex GWR/WR service to Padstow was definitely several times a day in early 1950's.  

 

I think the BWT duty below came from the SREMG site.

 

 

11 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

That engine working notice illustrates Johnster's definitional point very well, because it is from the BR period and shows, I think, an ex-GWR 57XX, allocated to a BR(S) shed, working trains over a combination of ex-SR (mostly) and ex-GWR lines.

Oh how I wish we could find documents like that for the Western Region...

[The Stationmaster]

15 hours ago, The Johnster said:

We need, IMHO, to define what we actually want to mean by a meeting between the GWR/Western Region of BR and the Southern/Southern Region of BR, and those are not the same thing.  For instance, prior to nationalisation, the GWR had a line from Westbury to Salisbury, where there was at one time a GW terminus adjacent to the LSWR through station.  Post nationalisation, the boundary between Western and Southern Regions was set at Dilton Marsh Halt, between Westbury and Warminster, but in practice the only difference on the ground was that the station signage was in green not brown.

 

Do we mean places were GW and Southern locos and stock could be seen together, which pre BR meant running powers and post BR was extended to suit loco and crew working (so that Southern loco appeared in Bristol and Western ones in Portsmouth, for instance), or are we talking about physical connection between the company's lines, as at Barnstaple, Exeter, Andover, or Basingstoke?  

 

In BR days, Southern locos worked to Bristol, occasionally as far as Severn Tunnel Junction with freight traffic and even Cardiff, also to Oxford, and even Leicester via Oxford and GC, and Western Region worked over the Southern to Portsmouth or Redhill with Manors and 43xx

 

GWR locos were limited in their excursions onto other railways' territory by clearance issues, especially over outside cylinders.  The GC was built to a larger European gauge and could accommodate them, as could the Reading-Redhill section of the SECR, but not the Brighton or the LSW.

 

Through working of stock between the railways was another matter of course.  GW stock got to Brighton from Cardiff and Southern reciprocated, but the locos were changed at Salisbury.

In fact, contrary to what you say, GWR locos were authorised to run over considerable stretches of the ex LSWR lines and in fact some GWR services, such as the DN&S trains to Southampton, could not have operated as they had no choice but to run over ex LSWR lines from Shawford Jcn to Southampton Terminus.  Similarly, as already mentioned, GWR/WR engines worked through to Ilfracombe and various classes were permitted through to Eastleigh, Portsmouth Harbour,  and Southampton from Basingstoke.

 

Also as already noted there were plentiful instances of through working where there were no running powers but things were arranged by mutual agreemen. For example apart from Exeter and Plymouth the only Southern Running Powers over the GWR which was actually used for coaching stock was between as short stretch from the northern end of the West London Extension into Addison Road station.  and in the 1930s the only Running Powers for coaching trains the GWR exercised over the Southern were Barnstaple Jcn to Barnstaple Jcn station,  Boscarne Jcn to Wadebridge, and between Pluymouth Cattewater Jcn and Plymstock Jcn (for Yealmton branch trains).  Some of the better known things such as Basingstoke to Oxford/Banbury did not involve Running Powers.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I'm probably misreading the map and getting confused with the River Thames...

 

 

Definitely, sorry.  

The connection from Reading to Henley was by stage coach - I can give you the names of the vehicles involved and their timings if you are interested because they were shown in an early GWR (and railways running in connection) timetable which I happen to have.  It also gives the times for stagecoaches from Exeter to various places in Cornwall as their was no rail route at that time.

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I'm definitely warming to the idea of a Reading to Henley branch. Gradients might be a bit daunting though - it gets a bit wild north of Caversham.

 

It could be avoided by swinging east of the high ground and going through the valley north west of Sonning and through from there to the route finally adopted joining it near Shiplake.  Trouble is that route would have been prone to flooding unless built on embankment and viaducts as was the Windsor branch.

[RJS1977]

2 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I'm definitely warming to the idea of a Reading to Henley branch. Gradients might be a bit daunting though - it gets a bit wild north of Caversham.

 

 

Even *in* Caversham - Donkin Hill's pretty steep!

 

As Mike has already said, the only real route would be along the north bank of the Thames round to Shiplake, and it wouldn't really benefit very much over the existing route. 

 

That said, the mixed use cycle/foot path under Reading Bridge really looks as if it ought to have had a railway along it at one stage!

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, rab said:

Again, not a terminus, but GWR and SR met at Exeter St. Davids, although I'm not sure if this was pre or post nationalisation.

i do remember reading though that down trains on the Western line

went through the station in the opposite direction to down trains on the Southern.

That arises partly because the line from Exeter to Barnstable was built (1851-1854) as broad gauge by companies allied to the Bristol & Exeter (and should have become part of the GWR), long before the LSWR came on the scene.

Having arrived in Exeter in 1860 the LSWR managed to purchased it in 1865/79 and make a through route further into GWR territory.

The Link from Central to St David's was opened in 1862

The GWR still ran a broad gauge train from Exeter to Crediton until 1892

Edited February 15, 2019 by melmerby

[Pacific231G]

12 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

I'm definitely warming to the idea of a Reading to Henley branch. Gradients might be a bit daunting though - it gets a bit wild north of Caversham.

 

Why would the good citizens of Henley have wanted to go to Reading;  especially the sort of citizens the snobbish GWR wanted to attract? They didn't build grand seven foot wide railways to take the lower orders to their work in greater comfort, coal trucks were good enough for them. Their aim in life, and the main passenger purpose of Great Western branches in the home counties was to convey the professional classes and the gentry to and from the capital, preferably those whose halls, manors and granges they ended up naming their locomotives after. In the case of Henley it was also to transport people from London to the Regatta, hence its three platforms.

 

When constructing imaginary histories one really should take account of such things and put oneself into tbe mind of the company's directors

Edited February 15, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Mallard60022]

23 hours ago, Zomboid said:

I haven't seen any mention of Yeovil Town, which I think saw trains from both. Not a terminus, but an alternative reality could be created for the Yeovil area.

 

Didn't Ilfracombe also have GWR trains, or have I imagined that?

 

Alternative realities could also be invented for the Brentford and Staines areas.

Ilfracombe had WR trains from Taunton via Barnstable; almost always 2.6.0 worked and were quite 'main line' too in summer, from places like Manchester!.

P

[Mallard60022]

On ‎14‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 11:37, Nearholmer said:

Padstow was transferred to BR(W) control eventually, and after that the trains from Bodmin were sometimes hauled by Prairies, I think, and before that a few Panniers were actually allocated to BR(S). But, that can’t have lasted long. The 'disused stations' website coverage of Padstow is generally brilliant, but to me seems rather ambiguous when it comes to through trains/coaches, let alone locos, beyond Wadebridge pre-1948. All the pre-1948 photos I've seen show LSWR/SR locos and stock at Padstow, but one would probably need to delve deeply to find the full details.

 

The Seaton Branch is another one where a model can be used to run ‘enemy’ locos and stock, because that was worked by ex-GWR locos for a short time. The same probably applies to the Exmouth area lines, but I’m less sure.

Seaton would be a nice choice, however it was just two Panniers in early 1963 for a few months and then two 14XX for a very short time in February ish 1965 when the bog cart had broken its' elastic band drive mechanism. There were no through coaches at these times for Seaton from the mainline (except specials), so any SR loco going down there would have been very rare indeed at this time.  Plenty of through stations of course, but the OP did say he wanted a terminus as already mentioned a couple of times. I'd go for Ilfracombe as the variety would be good.

Phil

 

[Ian Hargrave]

Bournemouth Central and West,the latter being a terminus.. GWR and WR locos and stock frequently worked through. Dorchester is another in the area where contact was daily.Yeovil Town and Pen Mill. In the 1930’s,SR locos regularly worked into Bristol TM.There were regular interchange  workings between Reading and Redhill.