Not to be loose or hump shunted?

[4630]

The following photo is of Network Rail ZZA snowploughs ADB965577 & ADB966099 which were in a siding, ready for use when the weather dictates, at Doncaster West Yard on 12th February 2019.

 

Both 'ploughs carry the legend 'Not to be loose or hump shunted'.

 

I'm curious about that as I was under the impression that loose shunting of unfitted stock disappeared in the 1980s and the use of hump shunting during the same decade.  In any case, I'd imagine that loose or hump shunting a snowplough was something that was banned under operating instructions, even when loose or hump shunting of unfitted stock was permitted.

 

So my question, to satisfy my ignorance, is why that legend these days as neither loose or hump shunting is permitted today in any case? 

 

Edited February 14, 2019 by 4630

[The Stationmaster]

Probably painted on them because it has always been painted on them as far as hump shunting is concerned.  But when it comes to loose shunting it is a specific instruction - they must not be loose shunted.  Equally the Group Standard (but not the Rule Book) states that loose shunts must not be made against vehicles which are branded 'Not To Be Loose Shunted'.

 

And yes - loose shunting is still permitted but, according to the Rule Book, 'only where specially authorised'. (which I suppose is a variation on the old theme of saying where it was prohibited   )

[Talltim]

They'd have to go a long way to be hump shunted nowadays!

I like the US version of the lettering https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-TfcZ9UwxLjc/VtfOMyuXa3I/AAAAAAAASgM/ONTzXIY50KI/s1600/12717738_987973664629251_6625217518465677456_n.jpg

Edited February 14, 2019 by Talltim

[LMS2968]

I think it was C. Hamilton Ellis in his book on the LMS regarding the Edge Hill Gridiron, that humping was a long established....

[AMJ]

Most rule books do not permit loose shunting these days.  

 

The wording probably relates to the hand brake being a wheel rather than the old fashioned lever.  On the lever you can drop it and then rest your body upon it to apply even more force.  Placing the lever onto a ratchet or putting in a pin depending upon the design.  Not advisable as there are many trip hazards  and one fall could be fatal.

[Swindon 123]

Any vehicle with a handbrake wheel, as opposed to a handbrake lever, can take a long time to apply the handbrake, I know from personal experience. But dropping a handbrake lever down, meant a pretty instant brake application, admittedly only a light one, but enough usually to retard a wagon, which doesn't then have a chance of running away from you at great speed, giving you time to apply the brake even more. By the time you had got the brakes even rubbing using a handbrake wheel, the wagon would have got away from you.

 

Paul J.

[F-UnitMad]

@Swindon 123; thanks for that, something I never gave much thought to, but makes a lot of sense. Learn something new every day!

[The Johnster]

You were supposed to apply force to lever handbrakes with a brake stick; imagine a baseball bat but square section at the business end, that you put beneath the solebar to lever down on; you were certainly not supposed to rest your body on it!  There were, as AMJ says, many hazards and the job was dangerous enough done properly, thank you very much!

Edited February 18, 2019 by The Johnster

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Swindon 123 said:

But dropping a handbrake lever down, meant a pretty instant brake application, admittedly only a light one, but enough usually to retard a wagon,

 

See here @ 1:30 - dropping the lever at the right moment brings the wagon to rest in near enough the right spot on the wagon turntable - with a margin of just a few inches.

[Classsix T]

A further pertinent question to the more knowledgeable if I may.

 

During my short tenure as a trainee pipe-monkey we did have a need to shuffle stock with different or no continuous brake and thus pulled the strings on those thus fitted.

 

Do the "not to be...etc" marked vehicles omit air/vac release valves to prevent such moves (though I realise brakes will bleed off over time)? I can't see a defined star symbol on 4630's pics, but the resolution is poor on my screen.

 

C6T. 

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Classsix T said:

A further pertinent question to the more knowledgeable if I may.

 

During my short tenure as a trainee pipe-monkey we did have a need to shuffle stock with different or no continuous brake and thus pulled the strings on those thus fitted.

 

Do the "not to be...etc" marked vehicles omit air/vac release valves to prevent such moves (though I realise brakes will bleed off over time)? I can't see a defined star symbol on 4630's pics, but the resolution is poor on my screen.

 

C6T. 

No, all vehicles fitted with an automatic brake have to have a release valve in order to get the brakes off should that be needed,.  And of course even if they're not supposed to loose shunted they can still be shunted attached to a loco/other vehicles and that could often be necessary with loco hauled stock although normally they would be bagged up and have the auto brake in use.  Mind you some Shunters could be a bit less than fussy at times and I caught one of mine loose shunting a restaurant car one Saturday morning (when he probably thought he was out of sight and out of mind).

 

Brake sticks seemed have all sorts of uses, ideal thing to carry at a station if you had some 'awkward' passengers misbehaving themselves - we always kept a couple handy in the Chargeman's office at one place we here I worked as we occasionally had to deal with highly intoxicated squaddies - they were usually fairly docile but if one did get a bit nasty the sight of somebody strolling past carrying a brakestick had a remarkable calming effect.   Generally it was forbidden to use a shunting pole to apply wagon handbrakes basically because it was downright dangerous although it no doubt often happened because Shunters only have two hands and they couldn't carry a pole and a brakestick and work handpoints so you can guess what happened.  Hence not unusual to find bent brakesticks lying around in yards but far more dangerous, as I saw on one occasion, to watch a pole shatter and pieces fly off it in several directions with considerable force.

 

But in some gravity worked  yards specially strengthened brakesticks were issued to wagon chasers whose job it was to chase and stop wagons dropping down under the effect of gravity.  One reason for using shunting poles instead of a brakestick was that not only could you get more leverage on it but you could put your entire weight on it by lifting your feet off the ground and, in a way, riding on the shunting pole to get a brake down as hard as possible.  I think the practice had ended before the Health & Safety Act came along

[russ p]

I'm not sure all wheel handbrake vehicles were no loose shunt. They were certainly loose shunted at Tees until the 90svand they went over the humps.

The redmire PGAs were wheel handbrake and they were gravity shunted there until the like he closed

[West Junction]

3 hours ago, Classsix T said:

A further pertinent question to the more knowledgeable if I may.

 

During my short tenure as a trainee pipe-monkey we did have a need to shuffle stock with different or no continuous brake and thus pulled the strings on those thus fitted.

 

Do the "not to be...etc" marked vehicles omit air/vac release valves to prevent such moves (though I realise brakes will bleed off over time)? I can't see a defined star symbol on 4630's pics, but the resolution is poor on my screen.

 

C6T. 

 

Another thing to bear in mind with freight vehicles is that the load can  impose the "not to be loose shunted" restriction. Loads that require to be "Load Examined" are labelled as such.

 

 

[The Johnster]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

No, all vehicles fitted with an automatic brake have to have a release valve in order to get the brakes off should that be needed,.  And of course even if they're not supposed to loose shunted they can still be shunted attached to a loco/other vehicles and that could often be necessary with loco hauled stock although normally they would be bagged up and have the auto brake in use.  Mind you some Shunters could be a bit less than fussy at times and I caught one of mine loose shunting a restaurant car one Saturday morning (when he probably thought he was out of sight and out of mind).

 

Brake sticks seemed have all sorts of uses, ideal thing to carry at a station if you had some 'awkward' passengers misbehaving themselves - we always kept a couple handy in the Chargeman's office at one place we here I worked as we occasionally had to deal with highly intoxicated squaddies - they were usually fairly docile but if one did get a bit nasty the sight of somebody strolling past carrying a brakestick had a remarkable calming effect.   Generally it was forbidden to use a shunting pole to apply wagon handbrakes basically because it was downright dangerous although it no doubt often happened because Shunters only have two hands and they couldn't carry a pole and a brakestick and work handpoints so you can guess what happened.  Hence not unusual to find bent brakesticks lying around in yards but far more dangerous, as I saw on one occasion, to watch a pole shatter and pieces fly off it in several directions with considerable force.

 

But in some gravity worked  yards specially strengthened brakesticks were issued to wagon chasers whose job it was to chase and stop wagons dropping down under the effect of gravity.  One reason for using shunting poles instead of a brakestick was that not only could you get more leverage on it but you could put your entire weight on it by lifting your feet off the ground and, in a way, riding on the shunting pole to get a brake down as hard as possible.  I think the practice had ended before the Health & Safety Act came along

I think that particular practice likely ended because the sort of people who indulged in it became extinct...

[LMS2968]

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Brake sticks seemed have all sorts of uses, ideal thing to carry at a station if you had some 'awkward' passengers misbehaving themselves - we always kept a couple handy in the Chargeman's office at one place we here I worked as we occasionally had to deal with highly intoxicated squaddies - they were usually fairly docile but if one did get a bit nasty the sight of somebody strolling past carrying a brakestick had a remarkable calming effect.   Generally it was forbidden to use a shunting pole to apply wagon handbrakes basically because it was downright dangerous although it no doubt often happened because Shunters only have two hands and they couldn't carry a pole and a brakestick and work handpoints so you can guess what happened.  Hence not unusual to find bent brakesticks lying around in yards but far more dangerous, as I saw on one occasion, to watch a pole shatter and pieces fly off it in several directions with considerable force.

I must plead guilty and admit I cannot recall using a brake stick, but like everyone else, invariably did have a rather bendy shunting pole. Neither the pole nor the stick were that light to carry when running after wagons following a shunt by an enthusiastic driver, so that left me one hand free for emergencies!

[Compound2632]

6 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I think that particular practice likely ended because the sort of people who indulged in it became extinct...

 

No laughing matter.

 

Midland Railway C&W part Lot 349, qty 1, raised 28 Feb 1895: 10 ton goods brake and mail van to drg. 822 with side doors for carrying injured men from Toton.

 

As Essery writes, "an awful indictment of the company".

 

R.J, Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980) p. 103 and plate 391, p. 107.

[beast66606]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No laughing matter.

 

Midland Railway C&W part Lot 349, qty 1, raised 28 Feb 1895: 10 ton goods brake and mail van to drg. 822 with side doors for carrying injured men from Toton.

 

As Essery writes, "an awful indictment of the company".

 

R.J, Essery, Midland Wagons Vol. 2 (OPC, 1980) p. 103 and plate 391, p. 107.

 

On the Edge Hill grid as mentioned above ^ ^ - the LNWR employed "limbless shunters" who were staff injured in accidents and were located at a set of points which they changed on instruction.

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, LMS2968 said:

I must plead guilty and admit I cannot recall using a brake stick, but like everyone else, invariably did have a rather bendy shunting pole. Neither the pole nor the stick were that light to carry when running after wagons following a shunt by an enthusiastic driver, so that left me one hand free for emergencies!

If you're having to uncouple a moving wagon and then immediately stop it moving after the engine is detached I don't think you've got much choice. (well I didn't  )

[Poggy1165]

It was a dangerous job at best. Must have been even worse when many wagons only had one brake, and when levers could be at either end. Talk about the quick and the dead!

[Wheatley]

19 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Brake sticks seemed have all sorts of uses, ideal thing to carry at a station if you had some 'awkward' passengers misbehaving themselves

 

We kept one in the box specifically because it was isolated and on an unofficial shortcut from the town centre pubs to a housing estate. The only thing I ever saw it used for was poking a dead dog out from the brake rigging on a 110.

[The Johnster]

I used to be frankly terrified of shunting at Swansea High Street Goods, where one of my link jobs was to make up a vacuum fitted train out of whatever came flying down the bank under gravity from Hafod around the blind corner of the goods shed, in poor light and gathering darkness, assisted by the yard shunters.  You had to keep your wits about you, and 360 degree vision would have been useful!  

 

Despite the obvious dangers of loose shunting of unbraked wagons, the place I saw most accidents was Canton carriage shed, where I once saw two different shunters have fingers crushed between buffers in the same move on consecutive weeks!  Shunting of any sort depends on a degree of psycic communication between the driver and the men on the ground, and you are always under pressure to 'get on with it'; everybody wants to finish early.  

[The Johnster]

Having described a brake stick as as a baseball bat with a squared off end, I can confirm that they make very good baseball bats for ad hoc games played with tin cans; the balance is surprisingly good and you can get a decent swing going.  As a weapon they certainly had a deterrent effect...

 

I hit myself in the eye with one once, releasing a brake on a wagon on a train I was preparing at Long Dyke yard (wouldn't have happened at Stationmaster's Radyr); the solebar was greasy and the stick slipped.  I saw stars, swore a bit, and carried on with the job, completing my round of the train, lighting the van stove and the lamps, and when I went back to the loco to give the driver his load, he nearly fainted with shock.  My entire left side was covered in blood (I'd just assumed my eye was watering a bit) and I looked like something out of a horror film, I mean even more than normally.

 

That was end of sports for that night's work; I was assumed to have been concussed and accompanied to the nearby Cardiff Royal Infirmary which still had a casualty ward in those days!  The black eye was particularly impressive and lasted for weeks.

 

Job was dangerous enough without hitting yourself about like this...

Edited February 19, 2019 by The Johnster

[Swindon 123]

I've used a brakestick to get a rather reluctant boiler to work on a Class 47. The fact that one was already in the boiler compartment was proof that I wasn't the 1st person to have trouble with that particular boiler.

 

Paul J.

[russ p]

16 minutes ago, Swindon 123 said:

I've used a brakestick to get a rather reluctant boiler to work on a Class 47. The fact that one was already in the boiler compartment was proof that I wasn't the 1st person to have trouble with that particular boiler.

 

Paul J.

 

Feed cut off valves often face the brake stick challenge!

[The Stationmaster]

On 19/02/2019 at 16:50, The Johnster said:

I used to be frankly terrified of shunting at Swansea High Street Goods, where one of my link jobs was to make up a vacuum fitted train out of whatever came flying down the bank under gravity from Hafod around the blind corner of the goods shed, in poor light and gathering darkness, assisted by the yard shunters.  You had to keep your wits about you, and 360 degree vision would have been useful!  

 

Despite the obvious dangers of loose shunting of unbraked wagons, the place I saw most accidents was Canton carriage shed, where I once saw two different shunters have fingers crushed between buffers in the same move on consecutive weeks!  Shunting of any sort depends on a degree of psycic communication between the driver and the men on the ground, and you are always under pressure to 'get on with it'; everybody wants to finish early.  

In later years generally passenger shunting was more dangerous than freight shunting because you had very little choice but to go in between and easing-up could be extremely dangerous if not done in accordance with the book  (DB had an even better way of doing it where the Driver has to hold up the loco key visible to the Shunter before the shunter went in between).

 

The main hazards were tripping or slipping when chasing loose running cuts (of wagons) or being hit by splinters of incorrectly used shunting pole as it broke while being used as a brakestick.  The job was a bit more hazardous with fitted wagons because someone had to go in between to bag up the vac pipes but everything else in freight shunting could be done from outside.  On the other hand with passenger shunting you inevitably had to go in between at some time so an immediate risk of tripping, orslipping on oily or greasy areas (just try it in the wells at Paddington  ), or banging your head, then working in a confined space (no Berne rectangle on British stock apart from vehicles running internationally), and dealing with recalcitrant pipes with a mind of their own which could catch you in various painful places, or getting it wrong when turning off steam pipes.   And all of that is before you even think about the various crushing type injuries and the fatalities that could result from them.