Ruston Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Afternoon All, I am in the process of wiring up my new layout. It will have end-to-end running, with a fiddle yard at each end. I want to be able to have it set up so that I can run it on my own, or with another operator. It is a single track with a passing loop. I was going to have a DPDT changeover switch so that the 'main line' and both tracks of the loop can be switched from one controller to the other but that means the switch can only be at one end or the other and under the control of one person. What I would like to know is if the controllers can be wired in a similar way to how light switches in a house stairs/landing are wired, i.e. a switch at both ends turns the lights on and off regardless of how the switch at the other end is positioned. Can a switch be put at each end of the layout so that when one person flicks it the other end's controller is disconnected and they then take control. Then when the other person at the other end wants to take control again, they flick their own switch at their end and take control regardless of how the switch at the other end is positioned? If this is possible, how can if be accomplished? I hope I've made that understandable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium dhjgreen Posted February 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2019 A problem with that would be needing to know the states of both switches to know which conroller was on which section. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2019 54 minutes ago, Ruston said: Afternoon All, I am in the process of wiring up my new layout. It will have end-to-end running, with a fiddle yard at each end. I want to be able to have it set up so that I can run it on my own, or with another operator. It is a single track with a passing loop. I was going to have a DPDT changeover switch so that the 'main line' and both tracks of the loop can be switched from one controller to the other but that means the switch can only be at one end or the other and under the control of one person. What I would like to know is if the controllers can be wired in a similar way to how light switches in a house stairs/landing are wired, i.e. a switch at both ends turns the lights on and off regardless of how the switch at the other end is positioned. Can a switch be put at each end of the layout so that when one person flicks it the other end's controller is disconnected and they then take control. Then when the other person at the other end wants to take control again, they flick their own switch at their end and take control regardless of how the switch at the other end is positioned? If this is possible, how can if be accomplished? I hope I've made that understandable. It's a little different to lights, because you want to switch between controllers, not just let both panels turn one controller on and off, so I think one of the switches would have to be a "change-over" switch, as when there are three or more switches for a given light. And you'd need to run the supply from the controller at one end to the other end to make it work. My diagram assumes that you are using common return so you're just switching one feed to the track. If switching both feeds, you'd have to switch both of them in the same manner. The switches could also control LEDs to show which controller is in charge, to get round the problem of not being able to tell from which way the switch is pointing. An alternative approach would be to have both control panels with push buttons controlling a latching relay (similar to a solenoid point motor) which switched the track feed. These could control a separate relay (or use contacts on the first one) to illuminate LEDs giving the status. You could have a lot of fun with this design if the two operators had a disagreement over who should be in control... Given that communication between operators is probably going to be required anyway, it might work just as well having one panel that's "in charge". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Surely the simple way would be a relay, with changeover contacts such that when operated controller A is connected, when released controller B. Then each operator has a button. Operator in position A is a make button and operates the relay, which then holds over a spare contact. Operator's B has a break button which releases the relay. Another spare contact could be used to light appropriate LEDs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 16, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 16, 2019 19 minutes ago, cliff park said: Surely the simple way would be a relay, with changeover contacts such that when operated controller A is connected, when released controller B. Then each operator has a button. Operator in position A is a make button and operates the relay, which then holds over a spare contact. Operator's B has a break button which releases the relay. Another spare contact could be used to light appropriate LEDs. Doesn't that mean that both switches have to be in the correct position for controller A to be in control (make button 'on' and break button 'off')? I'm not sure that adding relays does make things simpler, anyway Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cliff park Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Press buttons, ie momentary , not switches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted February 16, 2019 Share Posted February 16, 2019 Just buy one handheld /'walkabout' Controller...!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John ks Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 If you want to use switches the CORYTON's is the simplest solution, although if you need to switch both rails then the top switch will need to be a 4PDT switch & the lower switch can be a DPDT Cliff Park's solution is your basic motor stop/start circuit The following diagram shows it I have added LEDS for indication As shown the relay needs at least 3 poles if you need to switch both rails With common rail return you can eliminate the RH set of contacts & a 2 pole relay will work. If you don't require indication then the LEDs and associated wiring can be deleted (mostly shown in blue & grey. the blue wiring to the track remains) John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete the Elaner Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Sounds very complicated. DCC provides a simple solution to that, Is there any particular reason you wish to avoid it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted February 17, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2019 Can you get a point motor with DPDT contacts on it? This could be controlled by a push button at each end to grab the section for your controller. Wiring would be like the blue wires on john's post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 The traditional way to do this is with cab control, with or without common-return (common-return simplifies the wiring a lot). Each controller has switches that can connect that controller to any section. PECO used to produce a very good pamphlet that explained this. Not sure if it's still available. The only snag is that it's possible for more than one controller to be connected to a particular section at the same time, but that's a DDT (don't do that). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasdavetheroad Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) How far apart will your 2 operators be? You could use a token key, each operator has a switch for the final track feed to the central section. This switch is operated by 'inserting' the key. To pass control switch OFF and pass the key to the other operator who uses it to switch ON. Some mechanical jiggery-pokery to ensure the key can only be removed or inserted if the switch is OFF might be needed, or you could trust each other!. A slide switch would be easiest. Edited February 17, 2019 by wasdavetheroad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasdavetheroad Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Even easier would be to use some chocolate box connectors that plug into each other. " connectors with the prongs make the token key and there are a pair of connectors for each operator to plug the 'token' into Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 I have a similar requirement in that the layout is over long and it makes senes to have controllers at either end (and in the middle). https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/10722-keeping-in-control-–-dc-panels-and-controllers/ The layout is divided electrcially into some 100 sections each wired from a single pole double throw centre off switch. I use 'cab control' with a common return (modern speak would be a 'power bus'). Each control panel is wired for two controllers usng the double throw switches to select the relevant controller. What might be of interest to yourself are some additional single pole double throw switches - they are labellled a, b and x in the diagrams on my Blog which can switch control from one panel to another. I use these switches to switch out/take over control of a remote panel. In fact they allow me to control the whole layout from just one controller - but not the reversing loops - that is a different issue. Cheers Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 Thanks for the replies. I can't get my head around any of it, to be honest. 13 hours ago, F-UnitMad said: Just buy one handheld /'walkabout' Controller...!! Two operators, one controller? 10 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said: Sounds very complicated. DCC provides a simple solution to that, Is there any particular reason you wish to avoid it? Expense. To buy the handset and base station, plus fit decoders to 16 locomotives would be very costly. Most of them won't even take a decoder anyway as they are tiny 0-4-0 kit-built locos that have no space inside. 2 hours ago, wasdavetheroad said: How far apart will your 2 operators be? You could use a token key, each operator has a switch for the final track feed to the central section. This switch is operated by 'inserting' the key. To pass control switch OFF and pass the key to the other operator who uses it to switch ON. Some mechanical jiggery-pokery to ensure the key can only be removed or inserted if the switch is OFF might be needed, or you could trust each other!. A slide switch would be easiest. I don't understand that at all. It's not just the central section that needs to be switched, it's the two tracks in the loop and also the other single track section for when I am operating alone. I want to be able to run the train all the way through on my own from one end. 18 hours ago, Coryton said: It's a little different to lights, because you want to switch between controllers, not just let both panels turn one controller on and off, so I think one of the switches would have to be a "change-over" switch, as when there are three or more switches for a given light. And you'd need to run the supply from the controller at one end to the other end to make it work. My diagram assumes that you are using common return so you're just switching one feed to the track. If switching both feeds, you'd have to switch both of them in the same manner. The switches could also control LEDs to show which controller is in charge, to get round the problem of not being able to tell from which way the switch is pointing. An alternative approach would be to have both control panels with push buttons controlling a latching relay (similar to a solenoid point motor) which switched the track feed. These could control a separate relay (or use contacts on the first one) to illuminate LEDs giving the status. You could have a lot of fun with this design if the two operators had a disagreement over who should be in control... Given that communication between operators is probably going to be required anyway, it might work just as well having one panel that's "in charge". I don't understand "common return" regarding this. How can two controllers share just two wires to the track? Surely each controller needs 2 wires of its own? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasdavetheroad Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 This should work for 2 operators 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasdavetheroad Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 Here is cab control and common return, the SPDT is the key. SPDT means single pole double throw. If I remember correctly each controller needs its own transformer. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
F-UnitMad Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, F-UnitMad said: Just buy one handheld /'walkabout' Controller...!! The way I was reading it, you wanted a contoller at either end, either of which could control the layout, but not both at once. So even with two operators, only one of them would actually run the train. So a walkaround controller enables a single operator to walk the length of the layout while running the train, or to be passed between two Operators depending on who is having a go, so to speak. But now I think that's not quite what you were meaning... Edit... but I'm not sure either now what you do mean!! Edited February 17, 2019 by F-UnitMad 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 17, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ruston said: I don't understand "common return" regarding this. How can two controllers share just two wires to the track? Surely each controller needs 2 wires of its own? If each controller has its own transformer, you can permanently connect one of the wires from both controllers to one side of the track and just switch the other one and it will be just fine. The electricity will find it's way back to the correct controller, so to speak. Edited to add: Just seen that wasdavetheroad showed this in a nice diagram. You could keep the black wiring but change the red wiring to my diagram to have the two switches you want. The changeover switch needs to be a double pole, or more if you also want to switch LEDs. Edited February 17, 2019 by Coryton Add more 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 17, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 17, 2019 10 hours ago, BR60103 said: Can you get a point motor with DPDT contacts on it? This could be controlled by a push button at each end to grab the section for your controller. Wiring would be like the blue wires on john's post. I'm sure you could, but that's what latching relays are designed for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted February 17, 2019 Share Posted February 17, 2019 22 hours ago, Ruston said: Afternoon All, I am in the process of wiring up my new layout. It will have end-to-end running, with a fiddle yard at each end. I want to be able to have it set up so that I can run it on my own, or with another operator. It is a single track with a passing loop. I was going to have a DPDT changeover switch so that the 'main line' and both tracks of the loop can be switched from one controller to the other but that means the switch can only be at one end or the other and under the control of one person. What I would like to know is if the controllers can be wired in a similar way to how light switches in a house stairs/landing are wired, i.e. a switch at both ends turns the lights on and off regardless of how the switch at the other end is positioned. Can a switch be put at each end of the layout so that when one person flicks it the other end's controller is disconnected and they then take control. Then when the other person at the other end wants to take control again, they flick their own switch at their end and take control regardless of how the switch at the other end is positioned? If this is possible, how can if be accomplished? I hope I've made that understandable. Hi Shouldn't be that difficult. I can't understand the point about DCC, seems to me the complication would be magnified not simplified, you can't tell which loco is on the train from the other end of the layout so DCC would be absolutely hopeless. as it would be for my layout, I don't need to know whether the 8.30 branch passenger has a any one of 20 locos. Prairies. Panniers, 14XX, Mickey mouse, 82000 etc I just turn the knob. Try this as per my diagram. Either end switch can over ride the other so the on/off switch for each section has to be provided separately. This is one feed. You would need either three or four depending on whether you want simultaneous departures from the centre station as per real thing, Simultaneous arrivals big no no on real thing without sufficient overlap. Trains wait outside station 1/4 mile min until other train has stopped in station. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruston Posted February 17, 2019 Author Share Posted February 17, 2019 Thanks to everyone who replied. I'm going to wire things up simply and for one controller only, just to test that all the points and sections work, and I'll have a think about all this before putting the layout into proper use. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) On 17/02/2019 at 03:15, Ruston said: I don't understand "common return" regarding this. How can two controllers share just two wires to the track? Surely each controller needs 2 wires of its own? Hi Ruston, You are not alone in thinking that, but each controller only needs one wire and a common. Here's a drawing that attempts to explain why. A is just two power supplies (batteries in this case) powering two lamps. The current flows in opposite directions due to the polarity of the batteries. B shows that they can have a common connection. Not a problem for most of us. C shows that the return currents have to flow through a common path. That's the bit that tends to confuse us. In reality, B is no different from C. We tend to "overthink" common returns. The good news is the electrons are not in the slightest bit confused. They sort it out without our help. You can substitute motors for the lamps and DC or even AC controllers for the batteries and it works just the same way. Here's a reasonably simple way to wire your layout (I don't know about you, but I like to keep things as simple as possible.) Two controllers and five sections. Either controller can be in charge of any section. If you want to make it a bit more sophisticated, use two-pole switches rather than one-pole switches and use the extra pole to turn on a light at the other controller to indicate that a section is still under the control of the other controller. Hope this helps, Andy Edited February 18, 2019 by AndyID Typo Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 (edited) Common return wiring has been used for many, many years and provides a very stable method if its carried out correctly. It was/still is used on the real railway for semaphore signal arm position indications and block instrument working etc.. Cab control as shown very well above, has as its main problem that you need to have good communication between the two cabs where two operators are involved. As its very easy to allow both controllers to become connected to any one or several sections at the same time! OK, LED indications may help, but that doesn't prevent the section being turned on at both ends The only way of overcoming this is to take controller/cab 2 feed via a set of contacts on controller/cab 1, so when cab 1 section switch is On cab 2 is automatically turned off to that section and the reverse for cab 2 being On so cab 1 is turned Off, and so on for all other cab switches and sections. This of course involves a lot of inter cab wiring though! Edited February 18, 2019 by Brian Intercab wiring comment added Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted February 18, 2019 Share Posted February 18, 2019 True, but is the additional complexity worth it? With two operators the only likely conflicts would be at the passing loop. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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