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NeilHB

Maryport & Carlisle Railway - Info and Drawings

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21 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

I think you'll find "lead" in this context referred to the colour rather than the chemical composition – ie grey. As to what shade of grey, that would depend on how long it had been exposed to the elements...

 

Don't think so. White lead used lead carbonate or lead sulphate as the pigment. Red lead used lead tetroxide as a pigment. So white lead paint was white, red lead paint was red - both were/are poisonous. Both were used as primers

 

Richard

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32 minutes ago, wagonman said:

 

I think you'll find "lead" in this context referred to the colour rather than the chemical composition – ie grey. As to what shade of grey, that would depend on how long it had been exposed to the elements...

 

I've just twigged what you meant. "The Oakwood Press book on the M&C states that goods stock was painted ‘lead colour with white lettering’" is open to ambiguity. As you say it could be grey - 'lead coloured' or it could be the colour of the lead paint. I wonder where the info came from and what the context was?

 

Richard

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I have very few photos of M&C wagons and those I have are pretty dark, but I think the grey (and wagonman is correct in steering you away from red) was darker than that used later by the LMS (for example).  Given that there isn't a specific colour named, you probably have a free hand, but maybe choose something that differentiates subtly between any LNW or FR wagons you might also run.

 

The M&C's No 18 was a copy of the G&SWR's 361 Class with a few differences; buffer beams (as you'd expect), sanders, injector position, whistle and water-bag rests.  The G&SW Association did do a drawing in their Journal many years ago and a copy can be obtained from them.

 

Modeller's Backtrack (of fond memory) had a long article by Phillip Millard on the potential of the M&C for modellers with some good photos and a couple of drawings.

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Halfords grey primer, and ask critics to prove you wrong then ^_^

 

Richard

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When i have come across "lead" as a wagon colour it has been a grey, usually a dark one.

One source might be Britain's railway liveries by E F  Carter. Also, Nigel Digby is doing a series of books on pre-grouping liveries, but i don't think he has got to the LMS constituents yet.

Jonathan

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Thanks guys. The reference to ‘lead’ colour is not just confined to the Oakwood Press book, the two M&C wagon drawings that I have (both from Model Railway News) state lead colour as well. 

 

I think I will have to find a suitable dark grey colour somewhere between Furness and LNWR to differentiate! 

 

I’ve got a copy of that issue of Modellers BackTrack on order, so looking forward to having a read of that when it arrives. 

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As a fellow devotee of the M&CR, I'd recommend joining the CRA as they have various LMS weight diagrams of the M&C engines that survived into the 1920s. These are basic but in conjunction with a good photograph, you can make a good model - get hold of Essery & Jenkinson's LMS locomotives vol 2  covering the LYR, LNWR, FR and the M&CR as it has photos of pretty much all of the M&CR engines. As for the W.Hardin Osborne plans in the February 1965 RM, the drawing of 0-4-2t No. 17 is very suspect and there is correspondance in the May edition (p135-136) to that effect. I've built this engine in 4mm based on my own drawing and can supply further info if need be. As others have said, the M&C were dab hands at locomotive plaigarism and you can take your pick from a G&SWR '361', an NER 'BTP' and a brace of H&BR engines. Also, some of their 0-6-0s were built by Beyer-Peacock / Kitson to one of their standard designs and bear more than a passing resemblance to the L&Y's  'ironclads'.

 

As for the wagon colour, it's just a medium grey ! Talking of wagons, beware the drawings for the brake van in the MRN and the box van in the MRC - much better drawings are have been published in the CRA's 'Cumbrian Railways'. Funnily enough, there are plans for two different M&C horse boxes, one in an very early HMRS journal and the other one is the one from MR, which can also be found in Nick Campling's book of NPCS drawings.

 

Drop me a line if you want copies of any of these drawings, etc - good to have another M&C modeller on board !

Edited by CKPR
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Carter (1952) describes the wagon livery as follows:

 

1905 "Goods stock was painted a dark grey, with "M & C" in large white letters on the left-hand side, and the number of the vehicle on the right-hand side in the same size as the figures and letters on the left side. A rectangular number-plate on the sole-bar bore the initials "M & CR"above the number in raised white letters. All ironwork was black, and the roofs of covered vans were white."

 

The description for 1916 was similar except for "Goods stock was painted dark grey, and was lettered "M.&C." (with full stops)".

 

Dave R.

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On 18/02/2019 at 19:22, Buhar said:

I have very few photos of M&C wagons and those I have are pretty dark, but I think the grey (and wagonman is correct in steering you away from red) was darker than that used later by the LMS (for example).  Given that there isn't a specific colour named, you probably have a free hand, but maybe choose something that differentiates subtly between any LNW or FR wagons you might also run.

 

The M&C's No 18 was a copy of the G&SWR's 361 Class with a few differences; buffer beams (as you'd expect), sanders, injector position, whistle and water-bag rests.  The G&SW Association did do a drawing in their Journal many years ago and a copy can be obtained from them.

 

Modeller's Backtrack (of fond memory) had a long article by Phillip Millard on the potential of the M&C for modellers with some good photos and a couple of drawings.

 

The G&SWR Association are currently pursuing the production of an etched brass kit for the 361 class 0-6-0 in 7mm scale. Current thinking is that extra parts for the M&C version will be included.

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3 hours ago, Killian keane said:

Very similar to SER nos 81/82/83 one of which is the subject of a new build 

 

I didn't know about that project. From their website:

 

Quote

the construction of a working replica of locomotive number 81: the first of three designed by Thomas Crampton for the South Eastern Railway and built by the Whitehaven firm of Tulk and Ley in 1847.

 

So, could be identical!

 

http://www.cramptonlocomotivetrust.org.uk/

 

Richard

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10 hours ago, [email protected] said:

 

The G&SWR Association are currently pursuing the production of an etched brass kit for the 361 class 0-6-0 in 7mm scale. Current thinking is that extra parts for the M&C version will be included.

 

That is very interesting news need! Does one need to be a member of the association to purchase one? 

 

My copy of Modellers BackTrack arrived today, a very interesting read, and plenty of food for thought in terms of long term layout ideas. Plus some useful drawings of No’s. 10 and 13, the very attractive 2-4-0 tender locos. 

 

It does state that M&C goods stock was painted lead grey, so grey my wagon shall be! 

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20 hours ago, NeilHB said:

 

That is very interesting news need! Does one need to be a member of the association to purchase one? 

 

My copy of Modellers BackTrack arrived today, a very interesting read, and plenty of food for thought in terms of long term layout ideas. Plus some useful drawings of No’s. 10 and 13, the very attractive 2-4-0 tender locos. 

 

It does state that M&C goods stock was painted lead grey, so grey my wagon shall be! 

 

The G&SWRA is working with an established kit maker providing information and assisting with the castings.  The kits will be available to all.  However being a member of the Association will be beneficial in attracting a discounted price.

 

Ian.

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Thanks Ian, that’s good to know. Do you know if there is an ETA for the kit, and a rough price? Would like to make sure I’ve got monies ready.

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On 20/02/2019 at 21:33, NeilHB said:

 

 

My copy of Modellers BackTrack arrived today, a very interesting read, and plenty of food for thought in terms of long term layout ideas.

 

IIRC, that article suggests Brayton as a good prototype with interchange with the Solway Junction / Caley and, if you stretch things a bit, the NBR/LNER. The  interchange and junctions  with other lines is one of the good things about taking the M&C as the basis for a model railway. Obviously there's the LNWR at both ends, but also the NER at Carlisle and  at Brigham at the end of the Derwent branch (NER mineral trains came in via the CKPR), as well as the Furness  via the Cleator & Workington Junction Rly. at Linefoot Junction, also on the Derwent branch. There were also various through workings by all parties and so LNWR and FR trains were to be seen on the M&C. Also, the M&C hired some LNWR coaches (i.e decent ones with bogies and corridors) for their through working to Keswick  via the Derwent branch and Cockermouth - I was born in Cockermouth and grew up in Keswick and so you can see why I'm a more than a bit interested in the Derwent branch !  

 

The other thing about the M&C, and this is straying into 'Castle Aching' territory and Edwardian's domain, is that it seems to have been a very nice  little railway under the benign autocracy of Sir Wilfred Lawson  - they didn't seem to have alienated local businesses and industries in the manner of the LNWR in West Cumberland nor to have antagonised the neighbouring lines (well, not after that unpleasant business over the building of Carlisle Citadel anyway !) and was in many ways the epitome of  a pre-1923  local railway company.

Edited by CKPR
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The M&C was also an excellent railway in which to invest. A contact of mine undertook an MSc in economic history, and the thesis part of his submission compared the M&C with the SMJ, simply because they represented lines at opposite ends of the financial spectrum, but of roughly similar length. 

There’s a real “compare and contrast” exercise! Why couldn’t I write about that sort of thing at school?

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I think it was actually the most profitable of all of the pre-1923 railways as it pretty much stuck to its brief of linking Maryport and Carlisle - there were several schemes for extensions, including lines to Caldbeck, Bassenthwaite and Allonby, none of which ever came to anything and probably for the best.

 

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2 hours ago, CKPR said:

I think it was actually the most profitable of all of the pre-1923 railways as it pretty much stuck to its brief of linking Maryport and Carlisle - there were several schemes for extensions, including lines to Caldbeck, Bassenthwaite and Allonby, none of which ever came to anything and probably for the best.

 

Scope for potential layouts, though.

 

Funny thing is, this simple lesson - stick to your original purpose - is still regularly forgotten. Think of GEC/Marconi, building societies which demutualised, and no doubt many more.

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I got as far as making a station name board for Allonby - I envisaged it as being a very basic loop and siding terminal. Caldbeck on the other hand would have to have had facilities ( a la Helston ?) for handling various forms of mineral traffic

Edited by CKPR
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On 22/02/2019 at 06:53, NeilHB said:

Thanks Ian, that’s good to know. Do you know if there is an ETA for the kit, and a rough price? Would like to make sure I’ve got monies ready.

12-18 months but price difficult to predict at this early stage.

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Just as a point of information, POWSides do a couple of sheets of their rub-down lettering for M&C wagons, plain white and shaded. There's a more restricted selection, including some black (did the M&C have refrigerator vans?) on the splendidly named HMRS sheet "LMS English pre-Grouping goods vehicle insignia (except LNWR)" - all in 4mm and 7mm scales, when available. No connection with either other than as satisfied customer.

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2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Just as a point of information, POWSides do a couple of sheets of their rub-down lettering for M&C wagons, plain white and shaded. There's a more restricted selection, including some black (did the M&C have refrigerator vans?) on the splendidly named HMRS sheet "LMS English pre-Grouping goods vehicle insignia (except LNWR)" - all in 4mm and 7mm scales, when available. No connection with either other than as satisfied customer.

 

The large white "M&C" lettering on the HMRS (nee PC Models) sheet is for high-sided coke wagons  but what the black letting is for is unclear as the M&CR certainly didn't have any refrigerator vans. I've found this sheet to be a good source of the individual letters required for the 'M.& C.R.'  or 'M.& C'. found on most M&C wagons.

M&C wagons.jpg

Edited by CKPR
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All, many thanks. Lots of very useful information coming out now which is brilliant. 

 

@CKPR yes that’s the issue of BackTrack - it’s a tempting idea to model it as suggested, but I doubt I’d ever have space for it. I do however like the sound of the proposed branch lines, potential for a more compact layout! Caldbeck in particular sounds like it has potential to be very interesting. 

 

@[email protected] many thanks, plenty of time to save up and work on my brass kit building skills. 

 

I shall sort out ordering a sheet of the HMRS transfers - shall need some anyway for my collection of Furness Railway stock for running on Duddon Bridge (see 7mm section for the layout), and the M&C stock can certainly make a useful appearance on there until I do get round to sorting out the grand home layout in a few years.

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There are a couple of photos of M&C trains in J E Kite's 1850 ~ 1925 Vintage Album - 0-4-2  No.4 on a passenger train and 0-4-2T No. 18 shunting goods stock - both at Carlisle.

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