Plan for first serious layout - need your thoughts.

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi everyone,

 

So in the basement of our house, there is a large room that is about 33' by 20' (barring the area for the stairs/small storage room under the stairs. Naturally, I thought a layout could be worked into this space. I haven't invested a lot of time/effort in learning any track illustration software (I have downloaded SCARM and AnyRail but I have barely used either), so it's on good old paper for a start. Note: It's not quite drawn to scale but you should get the idea. Also note, the measurements on the outside are for the layout, not the length of the wall.

 

Basically, it's a n shape (or a C shape) with a straight instead of a curve. There would be a fiddle yard underneath the whole layout and the fiddle yard would be connected to the main level by a hidden line on a gradient which spans most of the 33' long section (I run steam so I need as low a gradient as possible). The hidden section would have one line going down and one line coming up. I considered a helix but I decided that a helix would be too large in order for steam to work.

 

On the left side, I was thinking of a terminus mainline station but with a loop that runs around the outside and behind the station (hidden by a hill/rocks/etc). On the right side, I was thinking of a loco shed that also has a loop which runs around the outside and behind the loco shed (hidden by a hill/rocks/etc). In the middle would mostly be scenery, a through station, perhaps a passing loop. The loops are a requirement as I want to have the ability to watch the trains to go and not worry about them running past the stopping blocks. I have not decided on the station or the loco shed will be based on but it will be

 

In terms of width, I was thinking that 2 1/2' is the widest I would want to go if in case I need to reach for a derailment.

 

Does this plan seem reasonable or is there a better way I could use this space? I've tried not to be quite over elaborate with my plans.

 

Please keep in mind that I have never built a proper layout before and I'm sure I have a lot to learn. Given the size of the layout, I'm also sure that this will not be a cheap layout but something that can be worked on over the years. I might have to build it section by section rather than try to do it all at once with baseboards and track and nothing else.
 

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

PS: I haven't shown the plan to my wife but I'm sure that she would prefer it not to be too big and too intrusive in the room (i.e not come out too far from the wall).

 

[Harlequin]

Hi,

 

What scale and what gauge of railway are you thinking about?

 

If you could measure the room to the nearest 5mm (1/4 inch) that would help with your planning (even at this stage) - especially the position and size of the stairs/storage area.

 

Is it possible for people to come down the stairs, through the freezer room, through the furnace room to the bedroom and toilet? If so, then maybe you could take over the entire area you've shown with a straightforward roundy-round, which would be much easier for you and your trains!

 

Unless you're talking about 2mm scale, the outside loops at the ends will need wider baseboards to fit in the radii required.

 

A fiddle yard below the scenic board could create some problems: As a rough indication, a 33ft long incline at a gradient of 1 in 50 will descend only about 8 inches. While that's probably enough for trains to run, it's very difficult for you to reach the back.

 

All the best,

[Jeff Smith]

Hi, some observations taken from experience.

 

1. Consider a shelf or wall brackets to support separate modular baseboards bolted together.  This allows for removal to work on the underside for wiring and point motors etc.

2. Consider just working on one section to start with.  Your skills will develop and you may find dissatisfaction with early efforts and the need to re-do parts, including re-doing the whole concept.

3. If not too invested in OO consider EM or P4, or even 7mm.

4. Consider lightweight open top baseboard design allowing for a more realistic 'train-in-the-landscape' concept, ie with scenery both above and below the running lines.

5. Consider making curves as large a radius as possible.  With such a generous area you can get well away from unrealistic small layout tight curves.  Corners could have fillets allowing for 4 to 6 foot curves.

 

Good luck

[Gordon A]

Fiddle yard beneath the layout:

- not good access for any derailments

- you will need quite a long ramp between the two levels

- how are you going to change the engines from one end to the other for return train

- access for track cleaning

 

Gordon A

[mdvle]

As said above, accurate dimensions of the room (including all openings, doors and whether they open inward or outward, exact size of stairs, etc) are necessary to be able to make suggestions beyond the basics.

 

Also, in addition to scale, what are your preferences - are you wanting rural/urban/inner city?  a branchline station / shed or giving the illusion of a big station shed?

 

Given the generous nature of the room my first suggestion would be to consider using the left or right side as your fiddle yard, and thus placing either the station or engine shed along the long wall.

 

 

[mdvle]

Another question, is the area in question entirely dedicated to the layout or is the centre area also going to be used for other purposes?

[DCB]

Is this N gauge? Because you need at the very least 4ft width for a return loop in 00.

Forget SCARM and computer based planning tools and get a sketch pad, pencil and ruler.  I work on a 1/12th scale so 1" =1ft  and 2mm =1" so as a rule a coach is about a foot long, a point 9" long a crossover 18" long.   Once you have a idea what you want then fire up the computer.   If you use Tension lock couplers you cannot really have fiddle yards or sidings hidden under other baseboards.  DCC makes even hidden loops difficult as you can have issues working out which train has which loco on.   This eats into space, which is why I don't use tension lock couplers or DCC, Peco couplers allow easy uncoupling by simply lifting stock and Kadees allow remote uncoupling.

30 feet is a bit of a trog.   Our terminus is over the hidden sidings so the train goes all round the shed to end up more or less where it started but 8" or so lower after a 40 foot run or so.  100% of the top baseboard level is scenic. 

The intended scale and more detail of the room would be useful.

Remember you can start and terminate trains at a though station but you can't run trains round and round on a terminus to FY layout.

Edited February 18, 2019 by DavidCBroad

[OnTheBranchline]

On 17/02/2019 at 02:35, Harlequin said:

Hi,

 

What scale and what gauge of railway are you thinking about?

 

If you could measure the room to the nearest 5mm (1/4 inch) that would help with your planning (even at this stage) - especially the position and size of the stairs/storage area.

 

Is it possible for people to come down the stairs, through the freezer room, through the furnace room to the bedroom and toilet? If so, then maybe you could take over the entire area you've shown with a straightforward roundy-round, which would be much easier for you and your trains!

 

Unless you're talking about 2mm scale, the outside loops at the ends will need wider baseboards to fit in the radii required.

 

A fiddle yard below the scenic board could create some problems: As a rough indication, a 33ft long incline at a gradient of 1 in 50 will descend only about 8 inches. While that's probably enough for trains to run, it's very difficult for you to reach the back.

 

All the best,

 

I'm thinking OO gauge.

 

I will redraw it again sometime soon.

 

No, it's not possible. I think it's a little ridiculous to make people go through a(n) [unfinished] furnace room to get to other places in the basement just for the sake of a bigger layout. At least I wouldn't be comfortable doing that (obviously I can't speak for others).

 

The main space will be a part train room/part future children's play/family area as well (myself and my wife are newly married and we plan on having children in the next few years). That's why I don't want to take over the whole space (at least maybe for another 20 years). That being said, we are newly married and I would prefer to keep my SWIMBO! I hear divorces are a nasty business.

 

Gradient: It's either a long gradient or a helix and I thought a helix would be too big for what the space that I want.

 

On 17/02/2019 at 02:47, Jeff Smith said:

Hi, some observations taken from experience.

 

1. Consider a shelf or wall brackets to support separate modular baseboards bolted together.  This allows for removal to work on the underside for wiring and point motors etc.

2. Consider just working on one section to start with.  Your skills will develop and you may find dissatisfaction with early efforts and the need to re-do parts, including re-doing the whole concept.

3. If not too invested in OO consider EM or P4, or even 7mm.

4. Consider lightweight open top baseboard design allowing for a more realistic 'train-in-the-landscape' concept, ie with scenery both above and below the running lines.

5. Consider making curves as large a radius as possible.  With such a generous area you can get well away from unrealistic small layout tight curves.  Corners could have fillets allowing for 4 to 6 foot curves.

 

Good luck

 

1) That's what I was thinking. Do it in sections and put it together.

2) That's also what I was thinking.

3) Sorry mate, it's OO.

4) Good point, I don't want to have hernia lifting the baseboards.

5) The thing is that I don't want to jut the layout too far into the room (or at least dominate). I do agree with the theory but it basically depends on SWIMBO. I've heard two trains of thought when building the layout; 1) try to get away with as much as you can early in marriage because forgiveness only goes down from there, or 2) play within the rules and then play the long game. Again, I would feel guilty about taking up too much space for a room where my future children play with their toys.

 

On 17/02/2019 at 04:39, Gordon A said:

Fiddle yard beneath the layout:

- not good access for any derailments

- you will need quite a long ramp between the two levels

- how are you going to change the engines from one end to the other for return train

- access for track cleaning

 

Gordon A

 

All good points. The reason I would prefer the storage underneath is that it saves space on the top level for more layout. One of my mate's dad's layout has a fiddle yard underneath and it makes space to me. Track cleaning could be both by one of those motorized units I suppose.

 

I hadn't thought the operation of layout (more of a train set at this stage rather than prototypical running). There are some engine sheds which aren't right beside the station so a bit of running back and forth wouldn't be the most un-prototypical thing in the world.

 

On 17/02/2019 at 12:56, mdvle said:

As said above, accurate dimensions of the room (including all openings, doors and whether they open inward or outward, exact size of stairs, etc) are necessary to be able to make suggestions beyond the basics.

 

Also, in addition to scale, what are your preferences - are you wanting rural/urban/inner city?  a branchline station / shed or giving the illusion of a big station shed?

 

Given the generous nature of the room my first suggestion would be to consider using the left or right side as your fiddle yard, and thus placing either the station or engine shed along the long wall.

 

 

 

I was thinking of the illusion of a big station shed and a big station with a rural/countryside in the middle (although it doesn't have to be firm). I have quite a few GWR 4-6-0s chomping at the bit so I want to create the atmosphere that would make it sensible for them to be seen.

 

8 hours ago, mdvle said:

Another question, is the area in question entirely dedicated to the layout or is the centre area also going to be used for other purposes?

 

Part train room and part future children's play/family area.

 

4 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Is this N gauge? Because you need at the very least 4ft width for a return loop in 00.

Forget SCARM and computer based planning tools and get a sketch pad, pencil and ruler.  I work on a 1/12th scale so 1" =1ft  and 2mm =1" so as a rule a coach is about a foot long, a point 9" long a crossover 18" long.   Once you have a idea what you want then fire up the computer.   If you use Tension lock couplers you cannot really have fiddle yards or sidings hidden under other baseboards.  DCC makes even hidden loops difficult as you can have issues working out which train has which loco on.   This eats into space, which is why I don't use tension lock couplers or DCC, Peco couplers allow easy uncoupling by simply lifting stock and Kadees allow remote uncoupling.

30 feet is a bit of a trog.   Our terminus is over the hidden sidings so the train goes all round the shed to end up more or less where it started but 8" or so lower after a 40 foot run or so.  100% of the top baseboard level is scenic. 

The intended scale and more detail of the room would be useful.

Remember you can start and terminate trains at a though station but you can't run trains round and round on a terminus to FY layout.

 

OO Gauge

 

I am debating switching to Kadee couplers for ease of use. The underneath fiddleyard is really to sort all the trains (rather than keeping some of them in boxes).

[DCB]

Definitely need around  4 to 5 feet minimum for the return loops in 00  We have one 3rd radius curve on a gradient and it limits the stock we can run, long wheelbase 4 wheel stock can't get cope . Kadees are good.   Tension locks are only any good for fixed rakes.    I have a continuous run in the loft still incomplete after around 22 years which has its storage loops on a loop line arranged so trains can depart from any road either clockwise around the layout or anticlockwise, and return to the same storage loop or any other. Its actually a brilliant system especially for DCC but hideously complicated which Is why I never completed it.  If you get the 4 to 5 feet width you could do something similar.

[Harlequin]

Here's an idea:

[Joseph_Pestell]

As I am sure you realise, you have a massive space there by comparison with most people.

 

Working in 4mm/OO, you will be able to build quite a complex and fulfilling layout without going into the complexities of multiple levels. The main thing is to have a clear idea of the sort of scene(s) that you want to replicate.

[njee20]

Just a thought that children won’t want to play in a basement unless that’s where you are. Whilst a ‘den’ may appeal to a 10 year old, you can forget the idea of confining small children’s toys to the basement - they’ll want to play wherever you are. Favourite place to build Brio...? In the middle of the (small) kitchen! If that has a factor in planning and/or negotiation. 

[The Stationmaster]

One thing to be wary off is adopting US ideas about the overall arrangement of a layout to British prototype.  Tight curves and steepish grades probably work pretty well with US diesel outline models  (and maybe steam outline as well well if forced) but GW outline steam available r-t-r won't take so easily to that sort of arrangement unless you provide some artificial assistance such as the magnet system from DCC Concepts (no connection).  

 

As ever my advice with this sort of scheme is to start with the (minimum curvature you are prepared to accept/which the models will be happy with and develop your layout design and track plan from that constraint.  The biggest potential bear trap in front of you is getting too ambitious with everything you want to have and ending up squeezing unrealistic, and potentially unworkable, curves and gradients into the plan.

Edited February 19, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[Coryton]

6 hours ago, DavidCBroad said:

Definitely need around  4 to 5 feet minimum for the return loops in 00  We have one 3rd radius curve on a gradient and it limits the stock we can run, long wheelbase 4 wheel stock can't get cope . Kadees are good.   Tension locks are only any good for fixed rakes.  

 

Of course as soon as you ask just about any question on here you will get a variety of answers to choose between.

 

So for balance I will point out that almost all 00 RTR is made to run on "2nd radius" curves and will happily do so. There are exceptions of course, but I haven't found anything yet that doesn't like it, and that includes both the elderly Hornby "142" and the Realtrack 143 both of which are made up from fairly long wheelbase 4 wheel coaches. The latter is a highly detailed "serious" model but made by people who know that some people are forced into such tight curves even if only in hidden areas.

 

Many trains will look somewhat ridiculous on such tight curves, but that's another matter.

 

I'm not sure if the comment about tension locks only being good for fixed rakes was meant to be a general comment - if so I'd suggest that a look through a railway modelling magazine or trip to most exhibitions would be enough to convince you that people can and do use tension locks successfully for more than fixed rakes.

 

56 minutes ago, njee20 said:

Just a thought that children won’t want to play in a basement unless that’s where you are. Whilst a ‘den’ may appeal to a 10 year old, you can forget the idea of confining small children’s toys to the basement - they’ll want to play wherever you are. Favourite place to build Brio...? In the middle of the (small) kitchen! If that has a factor in planning and/or negotiation. 

 

Personally I wouldn't want a railway in a playroom for young children unless I could contrive some kind of protective covers. Young children tend be somewhat exuberant and even if rolling stock was safely stashed away, flying teddy bears and worse aren't really compatible with carefully constructed scenic items.  Of course a lot of people find that finding the time for a model railway and having young children aren't compatible anyway...

[Zomboid]

A huge space and you're planning kids. It'll take a long time to fill it with track, never mind scenery, without any childcare responsibilities. So long as you know that you're in for a long haul (as many American projects are).

 

Unless you want to do Bristol TM, you've got space there for a really nice representation of somewhere on one of the GWs major routes without having to resort to multiple levels.

 

I'd do a 4-5 foot wide board, with an 18 - 24" access gap behind, and dumbbells at either end eating into the access space. Storage would be the rear 2' -2'6" or so of the board (you've got the length to have the up yard at the left hand end and the down yard at the right and still run 8ish coach trains). And I'd probably use it for a representation of Halwill Junction or Yeovil Junction, or some other interesting LSWR location, but you could do something like Princes Risborough (with added LNER stuff off the GC) or Newbury, or even a wayside one like Savernake.

[Harlequin]

3 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

A huge space and you're planning kids. It'll take a long time to fill it with track, never mind scenery, without any childcare responsibilities. So long as you know that you're in for a long haul (as many American projects are).

 

Unless you want to do Bristol TM, you've got space there for a really nice representation of somewhere on one of the GWs major routes without having to resort to multiple levels.

 

I'd do a 4-5 foot wide board, with an 18 - 24" access gap behind, and dumbbells at either end eating into the access space. Storage would be the rear 2' -2'6" or so of the board (you've got the length to have the up yard at the left hand end and the down yard at the right and still run 8ish coach trains). And I'd probably use it for a representation of Halwill Junction or Yeovil Junction, or some other interesting LSWR location, but you could do something like Princes Risborough (with added LNER stuff off the GC) or Newbury, or even a wayside one like Savernake.

Yes I agree. Best to keep it on one level if at all possible, but it depends on how far the OP is willing to push his "red lines" about intruding into the room and how much storage he needs for his stock.

 

Even in a big space like this there are still difficult decisions to be made!

[Jeff Smith]

OnTheBranchline - you have as far as I can see not stated where you live but basement size and the word 'furnace' suggests somewhere in the colonies...also feet not metres.

 

Anyway, I based my earlier suggestions regarding scope of the layout on my first OO layout.  I planned a round-the-loft layout with a branch terminus.  I was also bringing up a young family so modelling time was limited.  Anyway only the terminus got built, 12 feet by 2 including fiddle yard, and it did get exhibited a few times.  Until you start building an actual layout you don't realize just how much time you need to do it to an acceptable level, whatever that may be.

 

Another suggestion regarding having children in the same room might be to have it at say 4 1/2 to 5 feet high to give a satisfying eye-level viewpoint and have storage (toy) cupboards underneath.......at eye-level the long wall could be a narrow trains-through-the countryside board with fiddle yard at one end and terminus at the other.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Looking again at the OPs drawing, I think that there is scope to make this work well and still leave easy access to everything.

 

A terminus along one of the shorter walls, the fiddleyard (or staging as we should call it perhaps) on the other short wall and a squashed continuous run (or dumb-bell) along the long wall.

 

Two options to build in stages: either the dumb-bell first or the terminus and fiddleyard built first but modular so that they can be along the long wall to start with.

[mdvle]

You don't necessarily need a "big" station to use your collection of locos.  One counterexample would be Newton Abbot, which I believe saw all sorts of larger steam, plus had an engine shed, and was just a town.  On the Southern Exeter wouldn't have been much different except for the shed being well separated from the station.  I am sure there are lots of other examples around where the GWR placed facilities based on operational needs and not population.  So shifting the station to the long wall you could build a reasonably busy through station(1), also serving a branch maybe, with an engine shed at one end a you open countryside on the other end, perhaps using a junction to partially hide the return loop.

 

As for the staging, does it have to be in the main room?  Or can it be located elsewhere (the freezer / furnace labelled areas) and connect to the layout using a removable section of track?

 

Or would it be acceptable to "borrow" 6' from one end of the room and create a peninsula?  Place the engine shed on the peninsula and then have your staging on the now "hidden" end of the layout.

 

Despite the above, a better idea might be to keep dreaming of this layout for the next 15 to 20 years and instead build something smaller, perhaps fitting elsewhere in the house.  As others have mentioned you have such a large space that many can only dream of, but the reality of a person starting a family creates an inherent conflict where the space isn't dedicated to the layout.  The mentioned danger of accidental damage needs to be considered, as does the constraints a young family can place on a layout (both in time and money - kids are expensive in both).   Perhaps as a compromise, and depending on how tall you are, a loop of track higher up on the walls so you can just run trains around while be safely out of the way would be sufficient for now, and perhaps a work bench tucked away so you can slowly work on some other aspects of the hobby - building some structures, kits, detailing, etc. - while waiting for the time for your ultimate layout.

 

1- Upton Hanbury could be used for inspiration, the station would take about 14' - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139075-upton-hanbury-gwr-mainline-fantasy/

 

 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

8 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

As I am sure you realise, you have a massive space there by comparison with most people.

 

Working in 4mm/OO, you will be able to build quite a complex and fulfilling layout without going into the complexities of multiple levels. The main thing is to have a clear idea of the sort of scene(s) that you want to replicate.

 

The wife was saying that it would be cool to change the layout as the seasons change but when I asked her how I would get the snow off the layout, she didn't really have an answer!  

 

7 hours ago, njee20 said:

Just a thought that children won’t want to play in a basement unless that’s where you are. Whilst a ‘den’ may appeal to a 10 year old, you can forget the idea of confining small children’s toys to the basement - they’ll want to play wherever you are. Favourite place to build Brio...? In the middle of the (small) kitchen! If that has a factor in planning and/or negotiation. 

 

Of course, we would be with them when they are playing anywhere, until they are old enough to be trusted.

Brio: Forget model railways, that's the expensive stuff! 

 

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

One thing to be wary off is adopting US ideas about the overall arrangement of a layout to British prototype.  Tight curves and steepish grades probably work pretty well with US diesel outline models  (and maybe steam outline as well well if forced) but GW outline steam available r-t-r won't take so easily to that sort of arrangement unless you provide some artificial assistance such as the magnet system from DCC Concepts (no connection).  

 

As ever my advice with this sort of scheme is to start with the (minimum curvature you are prepared to accept/which the models will be happy with and develop your layout design and track plan from that constraint.  The biggest potential bear trap in front of you is getting too ambitious with everything you want to have and ending up squeezing unrealistic, and potentially unworkable, curves and gradients into the plan.

 

Sensible advice. I think the last bit is everyone's biggest problem when they are first starting out. 

 

By the way, what are the American ideas you speak of? Simply tight curves and steepish grades? I'm a little unclear how those are American ideas and not 'beginner' ideas?

 

6 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Of course as soon as you ask just about any question on here you will get a variety of answers to choose between.

 

So for balance I will point out that almost all 00 RTR is made to run on "2nd radius" curves and will happily do so. There are exceptions of course, but I haven't found anything yet that doesn't like it, and that includes both the elderly Hornby "142" and the Realtrack 143 both of which are made up from fairly long wheelbase 4 wheel coaches. The latter is a highly detailed "serious" model but made by people who know that some people are forced into such tight curves even if only in hidden areas.

 

Many trains will look somewhat ridiculous on such tight curves, but that's another matter.

 

I'm not sure if the comment about tension locks only being good for fixed rakes was meant to be a general comment - if so I'd suggest that a look through a railway modelling magazine or trip to most exhibitions would be enough to convince you that people can and do use tension locks successfully for more than fixed rakes.

 

 

Personally I wouldn't want a railway in a playroom for young children unless I could contrive some kind of protective covers. Young children tend be somewhat exuberant and even if rolling stock was safely stashed away, flying teddy bears and worse aren't really compatible with carefully constructed scenic items.  Of course a lot of people find that finding the time for a model railway and having young children aren't compatible anyway...

 

See, where I live, there's only one British model railway exhibition every two years and it's been going downhill for the past few times. Most of my research will have to be online/Youtube. 

 

I would mount the layout about 4 feet off the ground so there is a bit of clearance at least when the kids are little. I'm sure there could be a protective cover that count be constructed if my future children are the literal definition of the devil. 

 

6 hours ago, Zomboid said:

A huge space and you're planning kids. It'll take a long time to fill it with track, never mind scenery, without any childcare responsibilities. So long as you know that you're in for a long haul (as many American projects are).

 

Unless you want to do Bristol TM, you've got space there for a really nice representation of somewhere on one of the GWs major routes without having to resort to multiple levels.

 

I'd do a 4-5 foot wide board, with an 18 - 24" access gap behind, and dumbbells at either end eating into the access space. Storage would be the rear 2' -2'6" or so of the board (you've got the length to have the up yard at the left hand end and the down yard at the right and still run 8ish coach trains). And I'd probably use it for a representation of Halwill Junction or Yeovil Junction, or some other interesting LSWR location, but you could do something like Princes Risborough (with added LNER stuff off the GC) or Newbury, or even a wayside one like Savernake.

 

Those are interesting options, I would like to have a few 'foreign' company locos on my layout but I hadn't given any real thought to which. 

 

Would you crawl down and under the layout or am I misunderstanding to get to the access space?

 

5 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

OnTheBranchline - you have as far as I can see not stated where you live but basement size and the word 'furnace' suggests somewhere in the colonies...also feet not metres.

 

Anyway, I based my earlier suggestions regarding scope of the layout on my first OO layout.  I planned a round-the-loft layout with a branch terminus.  I was also bringing up a young family so modelling time was limited.  Anyway only the terminus got built, 12 feet by 2 including fiddle yard, and it did get exhibited a few times.  Until you start building an actual layout you don't realize just how much time you need to do it to an acceptable level, whatever that may be.

 

Another suggestion regarding having children in the same room might be to have it at say 4 1/2 to 5 feet high to give a satisfying eye-level viewpoint and have storage (toy) cupboards underneath.......at eye-level the long wall could be a narrow trains-through-the countryside board with fiddle yard at one end and terminus at the other.

 

You are correct. I'll give you a hint: I'm in the country that won the war of 1812 (double hint: it wasn't yours  ).  I chose feet because most people on here talk in feet rather than metres. 

 

I'm sure I do not realise how time consuming a proper layout is, I do realise that it will never be complete. 

 

As said before, the future layout will be mounted about 4 feet off the floor. 

 

I would like a loco shed as well, or is that too ambitious to do a fiddle yard and a station and a loco shed at this conceptual point? I would assume the fiddle yard would have to be done first, then the station, then the loco shed. 

 

3 hours ago, mdvle said:

You don't necessarily need a "big" station to use your collection of locos.  One counterexample would be Newton Abbot, which I believe saw all sorts of larger steam, plus had an engine shed, and was just a town.  On the Southern Exeter wouldn't have been much different except for the shed being well separated from the station.  I am sure there are lots of other examples around where the GWR placed facilities based on operational needs and not population.  So shifting the station to the long wall you could build a reasonably busy through station(1), also serving a branch maybe, with an engine shed at one end a you open countryside on the other end, perhaps using a junction to partially hide the return loop.

 

As for the staging, does it have to be in the main room?  Or can it be located elsewhere (the freezer / furnace labelled areas) and connect to the layout using a removable section of track?

 

Or would it be acceptable to "borrow" 6' from one end of the room and create a peninsula?  Place the engine shed on the peninsula and then have your staging on the now "hidden" end of the layout.

 

Despite the above, a better idea might be to keep dreaming of this layout for the next 15 to 20 years and instead build something smaller, perhaps fitting elsewhere in the house.  As others have mentioned you have such a large space that many can only dream of, but the reality of a person starting a family creates an inherent conflict where the space isn't dedicated to the layout.  The mentioned danger of accidental damage needs to be considered, as does the constraints a young family can place on a layout (both in time and money - kids are expensive in both).   Perhaps as a compromise, and depending on how tall you are, a loop of track higher up on the walls so you can just run trains around while be safely out of the way would be sufficient for now, and perhaps a work bench tucked away so you can slowly work on some other aspects of the hobby - building some structures, kits, detailing, etc. - while waiting for the time for your ultimate layout.

 

1- Upton Hanbury could be used for inspiration, the station would take about 14' - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/139075-upton-hanbury-gwr-mainline-fantasy/

 

 

 

 

I hadn't considering a full through station because I wasn't planning on making the long wall side that wide (which it would have to be unless it's a two lane road through station). I am sort of attracted to a terminus station because I could have little Panniers fussing around with coaches and some light engine movements.

 

I would prefer not to put any holes in walls (which is what connecting the layout to any other room would have to be). The furnace room is not possible as it is a main walking path to the bedroom/toilet. I.E: It might be noticed. 

 

In terms of borrowing, it all depends on how much I am allowed to take. 

 

I think my work bench would have to be outside or in the garage, due to some of the foul-smelling elements of model making (i.e. liquid cement). 

 

By the way, how did you draw Upton Hanbury?

Edited February 19, 2019 by OnTheBranchline

[Jeff Smith]

39 minutes ago, OnTheBranchline said:

You are correct. I'll give you a hint: I'm in the country that won the war of 1812 (double hint: it wasn't yours  ).

 

A bit off thread but the American war of 1812 was generally considered a stalemate and no territory actually changed hands.  However both sides often claim victory.  I carry both passports, one of which may well change from red to blue next time I renew it........but, I digress, it is interesting that the 1812 Overture has been adopted by the US and is often played on July 4th, many here do not realize it was written about a different war elsewhere.....

[OnTheBranchline]

5 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

 

A bit off thread but the American war of 1812 was generally considered a stalemate and no territory actually changed hands.  However both sides often claim victory.  I carry both passports, one of which may well change from red to blue next time I renew it........but, I digress, it is interesting that the 1812 Overture has been adopted by the US and is often played on July 4th, many here do not realize it was written about a different war elsewhere.....

 

It was Canada if that was not clear.

[Zomboid]

1 hour ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Would you crawl down and under the layout or am I misunderstanding to get to the access space?

Yeah, that was the idea. Shouldn't be a problem for a while as you're at the younger end - though maybe you need to consider if anyone else is going to come round for operation sessions.

 

Here's a superb MS Paint sketch of what I was getting at (freehand curves with a trackpad are rubbish - who knew?). The whole thing needn't be more than 8 feet deep. You'd need access into the middle of the dogbones as well for retrieving the inevitable derailments.

Edited February 19, 2019 by Zomboid

[mdvle]

1 hour ago, OnTheBranchline said:

Of course, we would be with them when they are playing anywhere, until they are old enough to be trusted.

 

It's not really a matter of trust, but rather that they will be kids and things can happen, particularly in an area designated as a play area.  Then there is also the consideration of any playmates and how they behave...

 

 

Quote

I would like a loco shed as well, or is that too ambitious to do a fiddle yard and a station and a loco shed at this conceptual point? I would assume the fiddle yard would have to be done first, then the station, then the loco shed. 

 

It will all depend on whatever you end up deciding is right for what you want.  If the fiddle yard/staging is to be located under the layout then it will be the obvious first place to start, otherwise a design with nothing hidden can have the advantage of starting with whatever you think gets you enjoyment first - perhaps a the station or loco shed with a temporary fiddle yard to allow operating trains without needing the entire layout done.

 

Another question, is this meant to be a solo layout or are you thinking of having people over to help operate it? 

 

Quote

I hadn't considering a full through station because I wasn't planning on making the long wall side that wide (which it would have to be unless it's a two lane road through station). I am sort of attracted to a terminus station because I could have little Panniers fussing around with coaches and some light engine movements.

 

Your drawing shows 2.5', or 30", which is more than enough for a 3 or 4 track station.  If you take another look at Upton Hanbury then you can see looking at the grids that the basics of the station can fit into about 24" wide.

 

A 3 track station, like perhaps Brent could give you some pannier operations coming off of a branch.  Even in the case of Newton Abbot I believe there were panniers used on some of the branches.

 

If you are set on a terminus then perhaps look into the minories layouts, where you could use that as an influence and give you a starting point.  You may want to look at https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28198-bradfield-gloucester-square-br-1962-ish/ for ideas/inspiration in addition to the more obvious https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/131100-is-minories-operationally-satisfying/

 

Quote

By the way, how did you draw Upton Hanbury?

 

Upton Hanbury is a design by Harlequin, he started a topic on how to create drawings of his style here https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/126780-layout-design-in-illustration-software/

 

[edit]

 

Further to a station with engine movements, even a through station can have them with Newton Abbot being a change point for a lot of engines, and of course with the GWR you also can get to split and combine trains.

Edited February 19, 2019 by mdvle

[The Stationmaster]

re the US style of layout the larger ones tend to involve multi levels and relatively steep gradients which suit US market diesels but aren't so suited to UK steam outline locos.  And the peninsula idea - very common in some US layout designs - needs space to get decent radii although in the US they are working to a slightly smaller scale.   So some US layout design influence was there as I saw your basic outline.  Not saying it won't work but it won't work anything like as well for British outline models where you need much shallower gradients and/or magnetic assistance.

 

But back to where you stand and more importantly moving forwards.  Apart from thinking about curvature etc as I mentioned above the first thing you have consider is exactly what you want your layout to portray.  you've got backs of linear space so think how you want to best use it.  As it happens I think your original idea on your sketch was a great starting point - don't forget that the more tracks you add the more constrained, shorter, it will appear to the human eye.  A single line over that distance will look like a long layout and will trick the eye into thinking that;  double line won't look so long; and adding addition lines will shorten the distance your mind thinks it's seeing.  Double track station plus a loop sounds ideal as it will create a spacious effect (assuming that might be what you want?).

 

Next how do you fit what you want into the space you are allowed.   Here comes an important decision - do you want a continuous run (makes sense for single handed operation) or do you want end-to-end fiddle la yard/staging to fiddle yard/staging?  and assuming you could actually enjoy working with the latter (single handed?) could you run the sort of train frequency you would like to run?   Important questions to settle before you start creating any sort of plans.  Or do you go for a mixture and, say, add you branch line terminus to a continuous run giving you something of both worlds.  Can you make the layout footprint wider (towards the stairs) in the middle and follow the Upton Hanbury idea or do you go for a variant on Harlequin's helix idea (they consume a huge amount of space especially if you want sensible gradients and radii but they can get you down much lower for your storage/fiddle yard area).

 

These have to be your decisions not ours but I would suggest staying with your existing idea, or a close variant of it,  for that main central linear space - and a continuous run will offer an awful lot if you can work one in.