Hattons Pre-owned issue

[GWR-fan]

For years I have been an avid purchaser of locomotives and rolling stock from the Hattons pre-owned section, particularly non-runners which I have found have either no issue or are very simple to fix.   Very, very rarely have I been disappointed with any of the purchases.   However,  today I received the following  "Hornby R3390TTS-XXXXXXX Pair of Class 43 HST Power Cars in Virgin Trains East Coast livery - Pre-owned - sold as seen - digital functions do not work".

 

Well,   the reason the digital functions did not work was that the TTS decoders had been removed and blanking plates fitted.  Analogue operation,  motor and lights were as new.   The fan drive had been disconnected,  assuming that a working fan is still current on later models.  Normally if the sound is inoperative the store will highlight if the decoder had been removed.  The wording in this case to me implied that the decoders were still insitu.

 

The price I paid was not much less than stripped out class 43 models that Rails would remove the decoders and fit blanking plates,  so in a way I feel a little cheated as I was sure that I could play with the sound and possibly make functional.  Obviously my interpretation of "digital functions do not work" is not inoperative decoders but removed decoders.  If I had of known the set was analogue only then I would have not purchased it.  We live and learn.

[298]

I've been thinking for a while that Hattons could improve sales and their trading image by spending a little more time repairing and fettling items before advertising them, as the time taken to write the usually accurate descriptions could be used to replace buffers and investigate poor running. Is there any reason why they are unable to do so...?

[GWR-fan]

I would assume the cost of labour.   I have received many, many non-runners and in most cases there really is not an issue that cannot be fixed within minutes with simple troubleshooting.  In three instances of non-runners I have found ESU sound decoders that the store did not know were fitted and all three worked perfectly.

 

I usually look for DCC fitted non-runners as if I test run the loco on analogue to verify if the chip is at fault then the issue may be a simple decoder reset.  One new non-runner was simply switching the overhead catenary switch on a Freightliner class 90 to the track position.  Given the time taken to photograph the item then a minute or two basic troubleshooting may reap rewards for them.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 hours ago, 298 said:

... Hattons could improve sales and their trading image by spending a little more time repairing and fettling items before advertising them, as the time taken to write the usually accurate descriptions could be used to replace buffers and investigate poor running...

 

Oh Noooooooo! I find their s/h pricing a little 'rich', but the price falls to 'more like it' when the previous owner was Johnny Ninethumbs, and he has dislodged some easily disturbed detail or botched a decoder installation to create a non-runner. Hattons have so far given a fair description of every s/h item I have purchased.

 

Long may Hattons' inability to sort out such relatively minor things persist (and I believe that it probably will as many of the fixes - while relatively simple - do take significant time because of the fiddliness of disassembly and reassembly to actually perform the rectification).

[Bernard Lamb]

I would have thought that the phrase-sold as seen- was a bit of a giveaway.

On the odd occasion that I have used them for pre-owned items they have met my expectations.

Checking every item and adding a charge for doing so, will not as I see it, improve their image or their sales.

Bernard

 

 

[JohnR]

34 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

 

Oh Noooooooo! I find their s/h pricing a little 'rich', but the price falls to 'more like it' when the previous owner was Johnny Ninethumbs, and he has dislodged some easily disturbed detail or botched a decoder installation to create a non-runner. Hattons have so far given a fair description of every s/h item I have purchased.

 

Long may Hattons' inability to sort out such relatively minor things persist (and I believe that it probably will as many of the fixes - while relatively simple - do take significant time because of the fiddliness of disassembly and reassembly to actually perform the rectification).

 

Likewise. I've picked up a few bargains when all a model has wrong is missing couplings and a replacement box. 

 

Always found the descriptions to be accurate, and confidence of dealing with a known retailer helps if there are any problems.

 

 

[Grovenor]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

I would have thought that the phrase-sold as seen- was a bit of a giveaway.

 

But how can the customer tell if there is a decoder or not from what can be seen on a website image?

[Steven B]

7 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

 If I had of known the set was analogue only then I would have not purchased it.  We live and learn. 

 

Send it back for a refund if you're not happy; I recently bought a 2nd Hand N Gauge Kato model; What arrived was an early non-DCC friendly model. An email to Hattons and a couple of days later the model was returned for a full refund.

 

Steven B

[meatloaf]

Send it back, don't let them tell you that you cant becasue its sold as seen. You have a right under consumer law to return any item purchased online.

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations

 

 

[Hattons Dave]

9 hours ago, GWR-fan said:

For years I have been an avid purchaser of locomotives and rolling stock from the Hattons pre-owned section, particularly non-runners which I have found have either no issue or are very simple to fix.   Very, very rarely have I been disappointed with any of the purchases.   However,  today I received the following  "Hornby R3390TTS-XXXXXXX Pair of Class 43 HST Power Cars in Virgin Trains East Coast livery - Pre-owned - sold as seen - digital functions do not work".

 

Well,   the reason the digital functions did not work was that the TTS decoders had been removed and blanking plates fitted.  Analogue operation,  motor and lights were as new.   The fan drive had been disconnected,  assuming that a working fan is still current on later models.  Normally if the sound is inoperative the store will highlight if the decoder had been removed.  The wording in this case to me implied that the decoders were still insitu.

 

The price I paid was not much less than stripped out class 43 models that Rails would remove the decoders and fit blanking plates,  so in a way I feel a little cheated as I was sure that I could play with the sound and possibly make functional.  Obviously my interpretation of "digital functions do not work" is not inoperative decoders but removed decoders.  If I had of known the set was analogue only then I would have not purchased it.  We live and learn.

 

Hi GWR-fan,

 

Thank you for raising this. I will be looking into this further to see why the description did not correctly reflect the fact that this model had the decoders removed from it.

If you would like to get in touch with us in regards to sending this back then please feel free to get in touch with our Helpdesk via email (info@hattons.co.uk) or phone (0151 733 3655) and they will be more than happy to help.

I apologise for the miscommunication on this occasion and I assure you that we will work to ensure this doesn't happen again in future.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Dave

[GWR-fan]

Many thanks gentlemen for your responses.  Given that as yet I have not failed to get numerous pre-owned non-runners once more operating I feel that I am well  in front financially so to speak.  Only one loco out of literally dozens of non-runner purchases required a replacement motor and I sourced that from China for just a couple of dollars.  The latest purchase was a bit of a disappointment,  but then it was basically new even though some ham fisted modeller had over tightened the body mount screws on the unpowered loco and caused the brass threaded inserts to rotate in their mount posts.  I sorted that little issue.  It would have been nice though to have had the TTS decoders to play with as that is why I purchased the item.

 

I will continue to purchase the items as they are an inexpensive way to purchase a very good model knowing that simple troubleshooting will most likely have the model up and running and usually less than half the price of a similar functioning model, even if the very occasional hiccup occurs.

[Phil Parker]

From Dave's response, I suggest that as ever, the correct way to handle a dispute is to talk to the retailer BEFORE heading to social media and prodding the "hang'em and flog'em" crowd.

 

If your seller is any good, and Hattons are, they will resolve the issue. It's only polite to give them the opportunity to do this first.

[Guest teacupteacup]

On 19/02/2019 at 04:40, GWR-fan said:

For years I have been an avid purchaser of locomotives and rolling stock from the Hattons pre-owned section, particularly non-runners which I have found have either no issue or are very simple to fix.   Very, very rarely have I been disappointed with any of the purchases.   However,  today I received the following  "Hornby R3390TTS-XXXXXXX Pair of Class 43 HST Power Cars in Virgin Trains East Coast livery - Pre-owned - sold as seen - digital functions do not work".

 

Well,   the reason the digital functions did not work was that the TTS decoders had been removed and blanking plates fitted.  Analogue operation,  motor and lights were as new.   The fan drive had been disconnected,  assuming that a working fan is still current on later models.  Normally if the sound is inoperative the store will highlight if the decoder had been removed.  The wording in this case to me implied that the decoders were still insitu.

 

The price I paid was not much less than stripped out class 43 models that Rails would remove the decoders and fit blanking plates,  so in a way I feel a little cheated as I was sure that I could play with the sound and possibly make functional.  Obviously my interpretation of "digital functions do not work" is not inoperative decoders but removed decoders.  If I had of known the set was analogue only then I would have not purchased it.  We live and learn.

 

Surely if you buy a DCC model with the digital functions do not work description, you should be prepared to invest in new chips and factor that into your purchase?  Its good that Hatton's have seen and replied to your post, but I personally cant see the problem.   

 

I recently bought a loco described as a non-runner to see if I could get it running, or just use for spares.  Turned out it had a decoder in it with the DC function switched off, would anyone take that as an issue and as for a refund?

 

I agree with Phil's post above, any issue should be taken up with the retailer first.

Edited February 20, 2019 by teacupteacup

[GWR-fan]

Before taking issue,  I have been a customer of the store for many years and am well versed in how the store writes up its description of a pre-owned item as I have purchased dozens of pre-owned stock, particularly non-runners.  When  the store writes the description of a TTS fitted model as related in the title description,  it states either the sound does not work or the TTS decoder has been removed.  In my latest case the description stated "digital functions do not work".  Now that could indicate either the digital decoders are faulty or contrary to their past form the decoders have been removed but the store has neglected to state that fact.   The store recently had several faulty Hornby Hall class TTS fitted locomotives removed from train sets and they sold like hot cakes.  There is a ready market for faulty TTS fitted locomotives as it seems that buyers hopefully will resurrect the digital operation as the selling price was marginally higher than a new DCC ready Hall class.  If they only wanted a DCC ready loco then why would they pay extra for a faulty TTS fitted model?  

 

Many times I have found a decoder loose in the model having separated from its mounting.  There was nothing wrong with the model or the decoder.  Also I have found that a decoder needed a simple reset to make functional or in the case of TTS fitted models if the item has not been used in sometime then it needs running on analogue firstly to free up the armature or drive mechanism before the decoder has sufficient amperage to work as the TTS decoder has a low amperage cutout.  When I purchased the item it was under the intent that I could at least attempt to rescue the decoders and not with the intent of almost doubling my outlay and purchasing what should have been there in the first instance.  If the description was accurate then I would not have purchased the item.

 

Now one can contact the store directly over an issue and the fault is hidden.  Public platforms place a store on notice to provide an honest service to their customer.  In the past on another site I have many times praised the store for exemplary service.  Why is it OK to praise a store when they have done only what we would expect of them in providing a satisfactory service and yet not right to make them account for a flawed item description.  

 

I made my initial comment to highlight that an item description may or may not be accurate so customers need to be aware if making a purchase.  Others though with no financial outlay have made this into a matter of political etiquette?   I am the one financially disadvantaged and was not seeking restitution,  only public awareness.

Edited February 20, 2019 by GWR-fan
Grammar

[Phil Parker]

17 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Now one can contact the store directly over an issue and the fault is hidden.  Public platforms place a store on notice to provide an honest service to their customer.  In the past on another site I have many times praised the store for exemplary service.  Why is it OK to praise a store when they have done only what we would expect of them in providing a satisfactory service and yet not right to make them account for a flawed item description.  

 

I made my initial comment to highlight that an item description may or may not be accurate so customers need to be aware if making a purchase.  Others though with no financial outlay have made this into a matter of political etiquette?   I am the one financially disadvantaged and was not seeking restitution,  only public awareness.

 

Public forums can be and are used to damage the reputation of businesses. If an honest mistake has been made then let the people concerned have the chance to sort it out before hitting them with the social media stick. There are businesses on  RMweb who have taken a lot of flack for some extremely dodgy practices and deservedly so - but those affected have tried to sort matters out privately first.  Were you running a business, I assume that's what you would prefer to happen.

 

By rushing to criticise on a public forum before reporting the matter to the shop, it looks like you are more interested in either harming the business or fishing for sympathy. Neither is a good idea, and in the past has proved counterproductive as happy customers rally around and have a pop at the OP resulting in the mods having to save them. Since you appear to have registered on RMweb only to post this topic (apart from one other post) , it appears like you have an axe to grind even if this isn't the case.

 

Nor is posting on a forum the correct way to talk to the business concerned. They can't sit and read social media 24 hours a day - that's why they have e-mail and telephones as the primary means of contact.

[Guest teacupteacup]

33 minutes ago, GWR-fan said:

Before taking issue,  I have been a customer of the store for many years and am well versed in how the store writes up its description of a pre-owned item as I have purchased dozens of pre-owned stock, particularly non-runners.  When  the store writes the description of a TTS fitted model as related in the title description,  it states either the sound does not work or the TTS decoder has been removed.  In my latest case the description stated "digital functions do not work".  Now that could indicate either the digital decoders are faulty or contrary to their past form the decoders have been removed but the store has neglected to state that fact.   The store recently had several faulty Hornby Hall class TTS fitted locomotives removed from train sets and they sold like hot cakes.  There is a ready market for faulty TTS fitted locomotives as it seems that buyers hopefully will resurrect the digital operation as the selling price was marginally higher than a new DCC ready Hall class.  If they only wanted a DCC ready loco then why would they pay extra for a faulty TTS fitted model?  

 

I agree with you that it was wrongly described as being dcc fitted, and I agree that is what you should receive, but incorrect descriptions do occur and its usually an honest mistake.

 

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Many times I have found a decoder loose in the model having separated from its mounting.  There was nothing wrong with the model or the decoder.  Also I have found that a decoder needed a simple reset to make functional or in the case of TTS fitted models if the item has not been used in sometime then it needs running on analogue firstly to free up the armature or drive mechanism before the decoder has sufficient amperage to work as the TTS decoder has a low amperage cutout.  When I purchased the item it was under the intent that I could at least attempt to rescue the decoders and not with the intent of almost doubling my outlay and purchasing what should have been there in the first instance.  If the description was accurate then I would not have purchased the item.

 

You state in your first post that you paid less than Rails sell the HST with decoders stripped out and replaced with blanking plates, which means you got analogue only (ableit 2nd hand but still at a good price), but as I alluded to earlier, surely you factored in the price of new decoders if the originals where beyond repair.   I've had many bargains that I've been able to bring back to life for next to nothing, and others where I've had to spend a chunk of money on, but I factored that into my purchase.

 

Quote

 

Now one can contact the store directly over an issue and the fault is hidden.  Public platforms place a store on notice to provide an honest service to their customer.  In the past on another site I have many times praised the store for exemplary service.  Why is it OK to praise a store when they have done only what we would expect of them in providing a satisfactory service and yet not right to make them account for a flawed item description.  

 

There is nothing wrong with raising an issue online, but its only polite to contact the retailer before, then describe your experience on a forum if you so wish.  If you've been a customer for many years as you say, and are aware of the way they work, then why not go direct and give them a chance?

 

Quote

 

I made my initial comment to highlight that an item description may or may not be accurate so customers need to be aware if making a purchase.  Others though with no financial outlay have made this into a matter of political etiquette?   I am the one financially disadvantaged and was not seeking restitution,  only public awareness.

 

Its not political etiquette, it's common sense to contact a retailer when you have a problem, rather than going onto a forum.  How else will a retailer know there is a problem?  The majority probably aren't members of forums, and those that are wont be trawling through posts on a daily basis.  

 

Edited February 20, 2019 by teacupteacup
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