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To DCC or not?


Tallpaul69
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4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

No-one is saying we should all use DCC, and for small, simple layouts DC may provide all the fun and the facilities the operator needs. But few of us who have DCC look back with regret.  

Thanks Ian, I wouldn't say my layout was small or simple - as I am sure you well know. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/880-sixties-snapshots-00-scale/

 

Like other's of a certain age I see no gain and a number of disadvantages of changing to digital.  I have this afternoon been recording some videos of sound engines running on analogue - again something that does not require any change to digital.

 

Cheers Ray

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10 hours ago, F-UnitMad said:

....and thus another interesting DC/DCC discussion is once again dragged down to the throwing insults level... :mad: :nono: :fool:

 

Hello,

       I find it strange responding to a derogatory remark in kind results in my post disappearing and further remarks such as this.

I will not throw my dummy out of the pram though. After doing plenty of research into lots of commercial DCC options from different manufacturers I decided the best option would be to join MERG.

Doing that has enabled me to learn lots about electronics and railway modelling related technology. I have a better understanding of how stuff works and how to sort it out myself. Joining MERG means I bypassed all the pitfalls and expense of commercial DCC offerings and  being unable to rectify faults. I also became aware of a lot more options in regard to layout control and operation methods. I use MERG DCC for loco control and CBus for controlling the track/turnouts etc. I also am able to access kits for testing DCC decoders, track testing, servo testing, train detection , DCC reverse loop control, etc,etc. On top of that there are guides to the hobby related electronics and the generous  help and information on the forum from fellow members at all levels. It also has something for those whom wish to remain with DC as well. I have found most things in MERG follow the shortest easiest and simplest route to solutions for model railway matters. MERG is absolutely overflowing with interesting things about DC/DCC as well.

trustytrev.:)

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22 hours ago, WIMorrison said:

 

Every time I have looked at MERG stuff I have been glad that I stuck with conventional DCC, they seem to want to make it complicated and enjoy showing how impressively complicated you can make it with their 'demo' boards. 

Hello,

       As far as I am aware MERG DCC is the same NMRA standard as everyone else. Conventional DCC.

trustytrev.:)

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1 hour ago, Silver Sidelines said:

Thanks Ian, I wouldn't say my layout was small or simple - as I am sure you well know. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/880-sixties-snapshots-00-scale/

 

Like other's of a certain age I see no gain and a number of disadvantages of changing to digital.  I have this afternoon been recording some videos of sound engines running on analogue - again something that does not require any change to digital.

 

Cheers Ray

Certain age? I was 48 when I tried, then adopted DCC. I am now 70. No regrets. And I never was remotely techie, indeed my only science quali is O Level Geography (1964). But the basics of DCC appealed and still do. But, like the P4 vs OO debates, in DC vs DCC there are no rights and wrongs.

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1 hour ago, Harlequin said:

How do you toot the whistle, Ray?

 

Sorry, I don’t mean to be sharp but that question neatly illustrates the extra control that DCC gives you.

 

 

As you well know bells and whistles are not available on analogue DC.  As far as I am concerned they do not come under the heading control - there is plenty else to keep me occupied.  It takes some three to four minutes for a train to circumnavigate the main line - life for me is too short to wait for station announcements, breakfast on the shovel and various other sounds.  I accept that with more limited space modellers will get more fulfilment from the bells and whistles rather than watching trains go by.

 

Ray

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2 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

As you well know bells and whistles are not available on analogue DC.  As far as I am concerned they do not come under the heading control -

 

Ray

Neither does chuffing! So what's the point of sound?

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For  completeness I have just loaded this afternoon's video - two Bachmann Deltics running on analogue DC, one with a LokSound 3.5 and the other with a LokSound 4.0.  This is still a work in progress and in due course I will add more details to my Blog.

 

https://youtu.be/nP8yyhd_JLw

 

I feel well chuffed!

 

Cheers Ray

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7 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

As you well know bells and whistles are not available on analogue DC.  As far as I am concerned they do not come under the heading control - there is plenty else to keep me occupied.  It takes some three to four minutes for a train to circumnavigate the main line - life for me is too short to wait for station announcements, breakfast on the shovel and various other sounds.  I accept that with more limited space modellers will get more fulfilment from the bells and whistles rather than watching trains go by.

 

Ray

The point is that with DCC you can trigger whatever functions the loco/decoder combination supports whenever and wherever you like. Those functions may be sounds, lights, smoke, uncouplers, etc...

 

Going back to the whistle specifically, the ability to sound it at will adds a tiny further element to the realism of the model. You can use it at the appropriate times as would have been heard on the real railway. It’s not simply for play value.

 

The sound of a whistle held open for a few seconds while a loco is travelling at speed through a large model landscape is hugely evocative.

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10 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

The sound of a whistle held open for a few seconds while a loco is travelling at speed through a large model landscape is hugely evocative.

The sound of the chime whistle from an A4 approaching Darlington Station on the non-stop is a sound to remember.  However as a train spotter in short pants you heard the whistle long before you saw the engine.  I do believe that the sounds of horns and whistles could be added to the railway room separate from the engines - perhaps in the manner of the sound system marketed by Brimel - or probably more simply from your PC/laptop?

 

Ray

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5 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

The sound of the chime whistle from an A4 approaching Darlington Station on the non-stop is a sound to remember.  However as a train spotter in short pants you heard the whistle long before you saw the engine.  I do believe that the sounds of horns and whistles could be added to the railway room separate from the engines - perhaps in the manner of the sound system marketed by Brimel - or probably more simply from your PC/laptop?

 

Ray

That’s how I used to do it in my youth - except from a reel to reel to reel tape recorder rather than a PC. Somewhere in my loft there is a tape recording my Dad made of a steam-hauled goods train coming through Hermitage at night while a nightingale sings in the woods. I have goosebumps just thinking about it. One day I will find it and find a way to digitise it so that everyone can hear it.

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5 hours ago, Neil said:

 

Well I've learned something today; thanks to google I now know what a shibboleth is.

 

As to the rest, it is, like my post, all a matter of opinion.

 

 

Actually , as I tried wherever possible to illustrate my arguments with real life examples , I would contend it’s not opinion but supported facts. 

 

The dc layout running DCC is a fact , DCC doesn’t “ need” bus wiring or droppers  etc. it can be wired very simply if so desired. 

 

the O gauge complex layout is a fact , and the estimate of additional 

 cost and complexity were it DC, is based on a careful analysis done at the design stage of the project 

 

Hence my contention , the fact remains , from a layout wiring and implementation perspective , it’s a plain fact that DCC offers simplier , cheaper solutions to layouts where points , sections and signals are controlled remotely , while offering facilities that simply CANT be duplicated in DC 

 

the remaining stumbling block will always be the cost of loco conversion. But this cost has fallen considerably in recent years ( not an “ opinion “ either ) , yes it’s a downside of DCC , but the reality here too, is that good quality decoders , can make a good loco great and a bad one better. 

 

Dave 

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2 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

Thanks Ian, I wouldn't say my layout was small or simple - as I am sure you well know. 

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/880-sixties-snapshots-00-scale/

 

Like other's of a certain age I see no gain and a number of disadvantages of changing to digital.  I have this afternoon been recording some videos of sound engines running on analogue - again something that does not require any change to digital.

 

Cheers Ray

I fail to see what ones age has to do with it, quite frankly . I run a diesel layout and there’s no way I can get the sound realism of a GM two stroke notching up in DC 

 

Other then loco conversion costs and or decoder install issues , I’ve actually never see a cogent reason advanced that’s suggests DC has advantages over DCC in any sort of realistic layout. 

 

Dave 

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23 minutes ago, Silver Sidelines said:

The sound of the chime whistle from an A4 approaching Darlington Station on the non-stop is a sound to remember.  However as a train spotter in short pants you heard the whistle long before you saw the engine.  I do believe that the sounds of horns and whistles could be added to the railway room separate from the engines - perhaps in the manner of the sound system marketed by Brimel - or probably more simply from your PC/laptop?

 

Ray

We had the recent pleasure of an A4 , with DCC sound and it’s fablous chime , running on our O gauge layout . The layout is big enough to generate a “ distance “ effect as the loco sped around the landscape at the back of the layout . It was captivating 

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1 hour ago, Silver Sidelines said:

As you well know bells and whistles are not available on analogue DC.  As far as I am concerned they do not come under the heading control - there is plenty else to keep me occupied.  It takes some three to four minutes for a train to circumnavigate the main line - life for me is too short to wait for station announcements, breakfast on the shovel and various other sounds.  I accept that with more limited space modellers will get more fulfilment from the bells and whistles rather than watching trains go by.

 

Ray

Actually I agree , and I’ve been modifying my MERG DCC controller to simply the  activation of a limited range of sounds , I’m signalman and driver so I’ve enough to be doing ! 

 

what I am adding is Railcom feedback , this allows me , when finished to have the layout automatically command DCC sounds as the loco traverses the track , ie flange squeal , switch to a distant whistle etc, as appropriate . 

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2 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

The sound of the chime whistle from an A4 approaching Darlington Station on the non-stop is a sound to remember.  However as a train spotter in short pants you heard the whistle long before you saw the engine.  I do believe that the sounds of horns and whistles could be added to the railway room separate from the engines - perhaps in the manner of the sound system marketed by Brimel - or probably more simply from your PC/laptop?

 

Ray

Or there is 4D sound from Freiwald. It knows where the train is and adds sound from a surround sound processor

Oh sorry you don't do DCC sounds!:jester:

(Actually neither do I)

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5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Or there is 4D sound from Freiwald. It knows where the train is and adds sound from a surround sound processor

Oh sorry you don't do DCC sounds!:jester:

(Actually neither do I)

 

I do sounds.  I use +4D Sound extensively and it is quite brilliant..

 

Cheers...Alan

 

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As this is now going rather into a "religious" discussion I think it is time to press the ignore topic function....

 

By the way - I believe modelling should be fun.

 

And I know that I am running the best system as do most further up this thread. :D

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59 minutes ago, Vecchio said:

As this is now going rather into a "religious" discussion I think it is time to press the ignore topic function....

 

By the way - I believe modelling should be fun.

 

And I know that I am running the best system as do most further up this thread. :D

 

I can't argue against any of this. I would say that the OP asked for opinions on whether to go for DCC or not and that it may be useful to have a range of opinions based on experiences. Like you I believe that I have chosen the best system, though I suspect that this isn't the one that you will have. That's fine, it means we both believe we have the best system which is how it should be, for our set of circumstances, our preferences our skills we have the optimum set up.

 

 

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10 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

 

 

Actually , as I tried wherever possible to illustrate my arguments with real life examples , I would contend it’s not opinion but supported facts. ....

 

 

.... Hence my contention , the fact remains , from a layout wiring and implementation perspective , it’s a plain fact that DCC offers simplier , cheaper solutions to layouts where points , sections and signals are controlled remotely , while offering facilities that simply CANT be duplicated in DC ....

 

 

 

I'm sorry but I still think you're jumbling up facts and opinions. It's very obvious you think that DCC is best and you've marshalled a set of facts to support this. However we all choose to give credence to certain facts and ignore others when we form our opinions. For example a couple of my friends use their dcc system to actuate points and signals, the cost of their DCC compatible point motors is three times more than that of the ones I will be using, both will require three wires connecting them to their respective control system. Last night by sheer coincidence my mate Trev had his Bachmann Ivatt 4MT, lovely model which he's run on my DC layout, it runs as good as it looks. However plugging in a chip to run on his DCC layout and it shorts the layout out. We tried chips that we know work in other locos, same thing, a short. Loco on the track with no chip and no blanking plug in, no short. Put the chip back in, short, put the chip in another loco, no short. It's this added layer of complexity which I don't like. The few extra wires to the track for loco stabling areas is no problem, the fault finding is a binary operation, one particular component works or it doesn't. DCC faults in this manner but like the 4MT it also faults when stuff reacts uniquely to particular combinations of circumstances. These sort of things are the facts relevant to my choice. Now the control of light and sound, the major selling point of DCC is not. In my opinion light and sound detracts rather than adds to the realism of a layout, so the fact that this is possible with DCC is not a factor in my opinion of the system.

 

 

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19 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

... Now the control of light and sound, the major selling point of DCC is not. In my opinion light and sound detracts rather than adds to the realism of a layout, so the fact that this is possible with DCC is not a factor in my opinion of the system.

 

 

 

I suggest that if you think that this is the major selling point of DCC then you have completely missed the point of DCC.

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10 hours ago, Junctionmad said:

 

Other then loco conversion costs and or decoder install issues , I’ve actually never see a cogent reason advanced that’s suggests DC has advantages over DCC in any sort of realistic layout. 

 

Dave 

 

When I restarted building model railways in 2013 I looked carefully into both systems and chose dc because it suits my needs better. For me the best thing about dc is that when you change a point you automatically have control of the loco on the selected track; this feature alone makes dc the choice for me. I model in N gauge but if I was doing O gauge my choice may have been different. I do hope my layouts are seen as being sort of realistic! 

 

 

Some say you can’t double head with dc but I have no problem. Even banking is possible.

 

 

 

 

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