To DCC or not?

[Phil S]

And if using either the cabled or wireless  Multimaus - not only do you have the loco control ( with a named library of 64 locos [up+downloadable] - which could match your periods) using 5 ( with older Multimice) or 5/10 characters (LAN multimaus)

but also..

the same handset can simultaneously control all your accessories with an onboard- graphic display of 'straight'  or 'curved'  ( or left and right if you prefer   [ graphic = l  and r ]  in case you are not in a position to see a big central display or your optional tablet display (which is zoomable).

The earlier release of the App allowed a background diagram to be imported, with the graphical track overlaid  [ they used to show it with a photo of parts of the layout - but I preferred a drawing of the layout and surroundings ] ... the present app improved the ease of creating the track diagram, but lost the background import ... I'm hoping the next version will combine the benefits of both 8-)

For me, these offer an acceptable replacement for the free Rocomotion (cut down RR+co) display I have had from previous Roco generations

[no extra cost for simply displaying and operating all the accessories .. the extra cost comes when position feedback is also wanted)

[Ron Ron Ron]

7 hours ago, Alan Kettlewell said:

 

....... It looks like you still have decisions to make regarding control of turnouts - DC or DCC - and whether to have a mimic type control panel ie switches and buttons versus an on screen electronic, or glass control panel.....

 

More recently I switched DCC control to the Roco Z21 system ......uses a glass screen as the control panel ..... I can operate my entire layout from a mini iPad or my smart phone. 

.......The other enormous benefit is the vastly reduced wiring due to there being no physical mimic panel to run every wire back to.  

 

.......The reason for my post is not to attempt to sway you particularly towards the Z21, but rather to give you food for thought about the physical control panel versus electronic.  Needles to say, in my book, electronic panels win hands down, but some folk like the tactile feel of a physical panel.  However some of your decision processes involve saving on the cost of wiring labour.  ........

 

 

Alan, it is also possible to have the physical control (mimic) panel combined with DCC operation of turnouts etc.

It's a perfectly viable option for someone wanting to take advantage of DCC operation of turnouts, signals etc, but wishing to retain the tactile and visual aspects of a physical panel, with switches or buttons and LED's.

Even better that the kit required can be bought off-the-shelf and is relatively simple to put together.

With such a set up, there's no need to "run every wire back to" the physical panel, giving the same saving on wiring as with the glass screen, apart from the short lengths of wiring connecting up the switches, lights and modules, located directly underneath the control panel itself.

 

.

 

[Tallpaul69]

15 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

That reminds me of an old scenario at work. We were looking to upgrade from Windows 95 / 3.1 to NT4 which makes it about 20 years ago.

 

One site chose to hire in contractors to do the work at a cost of about £250,000. My manager approached our director & suggested that if she spent £20,000 on training the 4 of us, we could do the upgrade ourselves & would have the knowledge to troubleshoot anything ourself.

I think with OT, the final bill was more like £300,000 v £40,000, so we spent at fraction of the other site & our network was the most reliable by a huge margin.

 

So it may be worth spending some time learning before diving in & getting someone else to do all the work for you. MK have a DCC-only club (Silver Fox DCC) as well as a large general club. I remember you saying you were in Leighton Buzzard, so only 2 stops away. I got a huge amount of my knowledge from getting 'stuck in' at a club. It really is a great way to learn.

Pete,

if you had seen some of my past layout efforts, you would understand why I don't want to do it all myself!

As for the clubs, sorry but I don't fancy on a cold winter night, having a half hour walk, or sitting on the railway station for ages having caught one of the few evening buses. Coming back its walking or  nothing!

Added to which, although retired, I barely have time to do everything I want to in life, without getting sucked into helping build a club layout!

So in my view, yes, you can learn a huge amount by club membership, but not sure the return , for me, is worth  what would be involved! 

 

Thanks for the advice anyway!

 

Cheers

Paul

[Tallpaul69]

12 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Alan, it is also possible to have the physical control (mimic) panel combined with DCC operation of turnouts etc.

It's a perfectly viable option for someone wanting to take advantage of DCC operation of turnouts, signals etc, but wishing to retain the tactile and visual aspects of a physical panel, with switches or buttons and LED's.

Even better that the kit required can be bought off-the-shelf and is relatively simple to put together.

With such a set up, there's no need to "run every wire back to" the physical panel, giving the same saving on wiring as with the glass screen, apart from the short lengths of wiring connecting up the switches, lights and modules, located directly underneath the control panel itself.

 

.

 

Dear Alan and Ronronron,

 

I think you guys have in slightly different ways gone down a similar path to that which I would like to follow:-

 

So, as I see my way forward:-

Stage 1:- DCC control of locos with the addition of some sound locos as I can afford them. Layout will be 12ftx8ft round and round plus branch with 8 road main fiddle yard and 4 road branch fiddle yard. Yet to settle whether one zone or four (up, down goods yard, and branch) or subdivision of the four zones into 2/3 areas each?  Have seen arguments for all of the above, trying to decide whether the additional wiring costs pays back in ease of faultfinding? Currently not convinced it does?

 

Control:- want to be able eventually to use wireless (not infrared!), preferably using electronic mimic on laptop, so that I can position myself anywhere in the operating well, and control everything.

 

Stage 2:- Installed at initial build:-. DCC control of points and signals. Eventually have some degree of automation to stop trains realistically at an adverse signal or when approaching another train in the fiddle yard.

Stage 3:-  As finances permit, have wireless control on laptop with curser operation of points and signals. Think I might still want to have knob or slider control of throttle.

 

I would prefer that any systems I buy are supported by  more than one organisation such as an importer. I ant to be able to go and chat to someone face to face, but not driving they have to be reasonably accessible by train/tube/bus to home in South West Bedfordshire.

 

Along this road DCC Concepts is attractive because my local model shop is an agent. Who sells Roco?

 

Your thoughts please?

 

Many thanks

Paul

 

 

.

[Alan Kettlewell]

38 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Dear Alan and Ronronron,

 

I think you guys have in slightly different ways gone down a similar path to that which I would like to follow:-

 

So, as I see my way forward:-

Stage 1:- DCC control of locos with the addition of some sound locos as I can afford them. Layout will be 12ftx8ft round and round plus branch with 8 road main fiddle yard and 4 road branch fiddle yard. Yet to settle whether one zone or four (up, down goods yard, and branch) or subdivision of the four zones into 2/3 areas each?  Have seen arguments for all of the above, trying to decide whether the additional wiring costs pays back in ease of faultfinding? Currently not convinced it does?

 

Control:- want to be able eventually to use wireless (not infrared!), preferably using electronic mimic on laptop, so that I can position myself anywhere in the operating well, and control everything.

 

Stage 2:- Installed at initial build:-. DCC control of points and signals. Eventually have some degree of automation to stop trains realistically at an adverse signal or when approaching another train in the fiddle yard.

Stage 3:-  As finances permit, have wireless control on laptop with curser operation of points and signals. Think I might still want to have knob or slider control of throttle.

 

I would prefer that any systems I buy are supported by  more than one organisation such as an importer. I ant to be able to go and chat to someone face to face, but not driving they have to be reasonably accessible by train/tube/bus to home in South West Bedfordshire.

 

Along this road DCC Concepts is attractive because my local model shop is an agent. Who sells Roco?

 

Your thoughts please?

 

Many thanks

Paul

 

 

.

 

Hi Paul,

 

I'm by and large operating as you are planning. My layout has fully automated  computer control using a laptop with 'Train Controller' software (not the cheapest option).  Automation can be done ie automatic stopping, starting, running scheduled timetables, in conjunction with manual operation if you like to do some shunting while trains are running under automatic control.  In addition I can choose to operate it using my iPad or smart phone.  The laptop and ipad/smart phone all link wirelessly to the Roco Z21.  

 

The laptop sits on my control desk which is on castors so I can move it to any position in the room I like (no wires between it and the layout), also of course I can walk around just using the iPad or smartphone.  

 

My DCC accessory modules, for turnouts and feedback etc, are wired in small groups wherever they need to be - ie close to the group of turnouts or accessories they operate - in other words, wires do not run back to a central mimic panel so wiring is at a minimum. I mention this because I understand you are keen to reduce the costs of your build  where possible.  

 

I wish you lived a bit closer to North Yorkshire as I'd be very happy to walk you through all of this - so much easier than all this writing.  There again it's almost a straight train ride up the east coast main line to Darlington from yours - such a trip out may well be beneficial to you - might be worth giving that some thought - the kettle's always on.

 

If you have the time or inclination, you could have a browse through my layout thread - there's a link in my signature block below.  It wouldn't be necessary to read all 30 pages, but there is quite a lot there about wiring up DCC accessories and automatic control, including some videos of it all in action.  

 

I'll follow this up with a couple of wiring diagrammes which may be helpful, if I can find them.

 

Cheers ... Alan

 

[Alan Kettlewell]

Hi again Paul,

 

I'm posting the following example wiring diagrammes for your interest.  This will no doubt cause controversy as we all do things differently - indeed there are a lot of different ways to do this.  BUT this is just the way I do my DCC layouts and you've probably gathered that I'm not one to be bothered about the tactile physical control panel or mimic board.

 

The examples are intended to show the basic architecture I use for connecting up accessory decoders - in this example I'm just showing turnout modules but the same applies for all accessory modules eg feedback modules, signals, lighting.  The key thing is that the DCC modules are grouped closest on the layout to where they are needed.  This way the wiring is much shorter as it's not necessary to run wiring back to a central point for a mimic panel (of course you can have several small mimic panels around your layout if desired).

 

To repeat, this is just the way that I do it and for clarity I have not shown the DCC bus or connections to it.  Note that the DCC modules are positioned close to the groups of turnouts they operate.

 

This is my way:

  

 

This might be the same layout where the DCC turnout decoders also feed back to a central control or mimic panel (but not on my layouts) :

 

 

Of course it's possible to arrange all the DCC accessory modules in one central place so that only short wires would then be required to feed to a mimic panel (if desired).  However I believe that is not the best idea (unless it's a very small layout) as all wires would have to go a further distance to the turnouts and accessories.  

 

In my view, the best solution for minimal wiring is in the first diagramme above.  (er....radio controlled and other not commonly used methods excepted)

 

Right - I'm diving for cover now as there'll be all sorts of other ideas incoming …

 

Cheers … Alan

 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Tallpaul69 said:

 Who sells Roco?

 

Many thanks

Paul

.

Quite a few retailers in the UK, many of the big ones & DCC specialists.

I got mine from Hattons for £299, currently one of the lowest prices.

N.B.

There is a z21 (lower case z) "start" which is white and is a stripped back unit for starter systems & a Z21 (upper case Z) "full system" which is black and the one to go for (if that's your choice).

The white one has less interfaces than the black one and needs an add on wi-fi package for use with tablets/smartphones/wifi Multimaus etc. IMHO not worth having.

[melmerby]

7 minutes ago, Alan Kettlewell said:

Hi again Paul,

 

I'm posting the following example wiring diagrammes for your interest.  This will no doubt cause controversy as we all do things differently - indeed there are a lot of different ways to do this.  BUT this is just the way I do my DCC layouts and you've probably gathered that I'm not one to be bothered about the tactile physical control panel or mimic board.

 

In my view, the best solution for minimal wiring is in the first diagramme above.  (er....radio controlled and other not commonly used methods excepted)

 

Right - I'm diving for cover now as there'll be all sorts of other ideas incoming …

 

Cheers … Alan

 

You can of course get DCC mimic panels which means only a DCC bus from the panel to the turnout decoders!

DCC Concepts, LDT, Megapoints etc.

Edited March 8, 2019 by melmerby

[Nigelcliffe]

As indicated by RonRonRon, above, there is an alternative to Alan's Diagram 2.   It does not need dozens of direct wires back to the physical mimic panel, but instead, control the turnouts via DCC (as in diagram 1) and use a physical panel device which passes instructions into the DCC system.  

 

So, the only extra wires are entirely local within the panel,  its output to the rest of the world will be two, four or six wires, depending on the technology in use. 

 

 

 

Commercial examples, by far from a complete list of how to do it, and there are a lot of DIY options to reduce the cost:

 

Signatrack CML DTM30.  Works with any LocoNet system, which is Digitrax, Uhlenbrock, Roco Z21, Digikeijs, ESU (with ESU LocoNet adaptor), etc..   (The DTM30 is incredibly powerful, doing things which are quite complex to wire up on a manually connected panel).

Lenz LW150 Mimic panel module.   Works with anything offering a Lenz throttle interface: Lenz, Roco, Digikeijs, ESU, etc..

DCC Concepts Alpha system.  With the "right" combination of bits, can work with almost anything.  But that "right" combination can be expensive for some systems, lowest cost is probably if using NCE system. 

 

and others mentioned by Keith above, plus no doubt many more.

 

 

- Nigel

[Izzy]

Scograil is currently doing the Z21 @ £294.95 (inc post), & the Roco Z21 multimaus wi-fi handset @£84.95. They are a well regarded retailer. I believe quite a few modellers have got their Z21’s from them, having sold them since they first arrived.

 

Izzy

[Alan Kettlewell]

1 minute ago, Izzy said:

Scograil is currently doing the Z21 @ £294.95 (inc post), & the Roco Z21 multimaus wi-fi handset @£84.95. They are a well regarded retailer. I believe quite a few modellers have got their Z21’s from them, having sold them since they first arrived.

 

Izzy

 

Yes, got mine from them ..best price around at the time/

[Graham Radish]

The answer is YES if you want to drive your trains and not your track.

[Clive Mortimore]

On 08/03/2019 at 18:31, Graham Radish said:

The answer is YES if you want to drive your trains and not your track.

 

 

I accept with DCC you have permanent lights, you can have noise sound and if you buy the right system and accessories you can control both the locos and the points form your hand set, phone or computer. Otherwise like the real railway the route is set, the signals cleared (if fitted and working on the layout) and then the person driving the train can do the magic thing and getting it moving. That applies to both DCC and DC.

 

What DCC cannot do is stop trains falling off the track and operator error. I know that to be a fact as I have operated quite a few DCC layouts as well as DC ones.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Izzy said:

Scograil is currently doing the Z21 @ £294.95 (inc post), & the Roco Z21 multimaus wi-fi handset @£84.95. They are a well regarded retailer. I believe quite a few modellers have got their Z21’s from them, having sold them since they first arrived.

 

Izzy

They were doing that price when I was buying one, unfortunately they didn't have any to sell.

They also do free postage which saves another £4

Edited March 8, 2019 by melmerby

[Art Dent]

2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

What DCC cannot do is stop trains falling off the track and operator error.

 

And that, Clive, applies equally well to DC operation!

 

I presume your comment was to promote your 20th century way of operating a model railway? 

 

Art

Edited March 8, 2019 by Art Dent

[newbryford]

32 minutes ago, Art Dent said:

 

And that, Clive, applies equally well to DC operation!

 

I presume your comment was to promote your 20th century way of operating a model railway? 

 

Art

 

"Lights blue touch paper..........."

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

44 minutes ago, Art Dent said:

 

And that, Clive, applies equally well to DC operation!

 

I presume your comment was to promote your 20th century way of operating a model railway? 

 

Art

Very few derailments on Sheffield Exchange, 20th century re-wheeling of stock where needed.

 

In fact very good running is achievable on Sheffield Exchange, clean wheels and track things stay alive, a trick I learned back in the 20th century.

 

Downside I am involved and most problems can be traced back to poor operator skills. But you can't have everything, a well built largish layout that runs well with a good selection of stock of which a fair selection is modelled not out of a box. The only chip is where I caught the wall when building the baseboards.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

22 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

"Lights blue touch paper..........."

 

 

A Roman Candle tonight not a banger.

[Tallpaul69]

Hey Guys,

Can we leave the fireworks out of things for another 7 months or so, please?

 

While amusing, it t just obscures the thread of the discussion!!

 

Cheers

Paul

[Ron Ron Ron]

Clive, if DCC is of no interest to you, may I kindly suggest that you leave this particular conversation to those who are interested in the subject matter being discussed. Your contributions are not adding anything of value here.

[Pete the Elaner]

On 08/03/2019 at 19:18, Clive Mortimore said:

 

What DCC cannot do is stop trains falling off the track and operator error. I know that to be a fact as I have operated quite a few DCC layouts as well as DC ones.

Absolutely it can't cope with operator error, which is a good thing because trains do not either.

 

With DC, I can stop my trains from a scale 40mph in a scale 50 yards quite easily. How realistic is this? Even with a simulator, you can whack on the brake & the trains stops more or less instantly. You can do this with DCC if you want, but there is another option.

 

Real trains take long distances to stop & this varies between trains. An HST will be very different from a class 31 on a freight.

If you try to drive a 31 like an HST, you will SPAD quite regularly because they need to be driven differently. If you fail to apply the brake far enough in advance, you will fail to stop. DCC allows you to set different acceleration/deceleration for different trains.

These are very basic settings too. So basic that even the Hornby Select can do it.

 

Giving locos different characteristics is a choice unavailable with DC & generates the debate of driving the individual train instead of whatever occupies the track.

 

Sound, lights & point control are just added extras. I used to agree that sound was just a gimmick but guess which of my locos get the most use?

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Absolutely it can't cope with operator error, which is a good thing because trains do not either.

 

With DC, I can stop my trains from a scale 40mph in a scale 50 yards quite easily. How realistic is this? Even with a simulator, you can whack on the brake & the trains stops more or less instantly. You can do this with DCC if you want, but there is another option.

 

Real trains take long distances to stop & this varies between trains. An HST will be very different from a class 31 on a freight.

If you try to drive a 31 like an HST, you will SPAD quite regularly because they need to be driven differently. If you fail to apply the brake far enough in advance, you will fail to stop. DCC allows you to set different acceleration/deceleration for different trains.

These are very basic settings too. So basic that even the Hornby Select can do it.

 

Giving locos different characteristics is a choice unavailable with DC & generates the debate of driving the individual train instead of whatever occupies the track.

 

Sound, lights & point control are just added extras. I used to agree that sound was just a gimmick but guess which of my locos get the most use?

Hi Iain

 

On the other hand with DC you have to drive the trains and physically drive a Brian the way a Brian moves and work a Tram as a Tram not leaving a electronic devise to do it for you.

 

Anyhow when viewing many layouts it doesn't matter if they are DC or DCC people drive them the same......badly.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Clive Mortimore

[298]

On 08/03/2019 at 19:18, Clive Mortimore said:

 

 

I accept with DCC you have permanent lights, you can have noise sound and if you buy the right system and accessories you can control both the locos and the points form your hand set, phone or computer. Otherwise like the real railway the route is set, the signals cleared (if fitted and working on the layout) and then the person driving the train can do the magic thing and getting it moving. That applies to both DCC and DC.

 

What DCC cannot do is stop trains falling off the track and operator error. I know that to be a fact as I have operated quite a few DCC layouts as well as DC ones.

 

Something else DCC can't do is tolerate bad wiring- reliability has to be built in from the start and what might work for DC such as stripping wire insulation with your teeth and clumsily soldering a repair with a gas powered iron is only going to end in disappointment unless standards are improved....

[WIMorrison]

5 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

Something else DCC can't do is tolerate bad wiring- reliability has to be built in from the start and what might work for DC such as stripping wire insulation with your teeth and clumsily soldering a repair with a gas powered iron is only going to end in disappointment unless standards are improved....

 

Another myth being (hopefully still) born...

[Pete the Elaner]

52 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Iain

 

On the other hand with DC you have to drive the trains and physically drive a Brian the way a Brian moves and work a Tram as a Tram not leaving a electronic devise to do it for you.

 

Anyhow when viewing many layouts it doesn't matter if they are DC or DCC people drive them the same......badly.

But DCC gives you the choice of doing this...or programming the loco to respond more closely to the real thing.

So I don't understand your point.