To DCC or not?

[Pete the Elaner]

56 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Just out of interest how much would it cost to fit the hardware to convert a loco form DC to DCC sound please 

Forgetting Hornby's TTS for reasons which would take a bit of explaining, then about £130 including the speaker.

If you are running longer trains in O, then you may need the higher current decoders which are more expensive.

[Art Dent]

4 hours ago, hayfield said:

Just out of interest how much would it cost to fit the hardware to convert a loco form DC to DCC sound please 

 

I have just started gathering some O-gauge locos and rolling stock with a view to constructing a shunting plank.

 

If your locos have low current draw motors - such as that in my Dapol 08 - then you can get away with a 'standard' Sound decoder - such as a Zimo MX645 which, together with a speaker, comes to around £100-100 all in.  As you said that you had some kit-built locos to build, I'm assuming that you'd have no trouble fitting the sound decoder and speaker.  If not add around another £20-30 per loco for this.

 

If you need a larger decoder - such that is required for the Heljan diesels - a decoder, such as the ESU Loksound L V4 or the ESU Loksound V4 XL is needed and the cost is in the region of £150-190 excluding fitting.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

[Phil S]

Here are some illustrations of Mimic Panels - real and Model / Virtual - to give you an idea and framework for discussion

(They were on an archive drive, which is why they were not included to clarify before...)

 

This first illustration is of an actual panel - with the tracks, points and signals shown on the vertical panel, and the controlling switches in a row across the front - the equivalent of the diagram in a signal box and row of levers beneath.   IN THIS CASE the presence of a train  would show where there are 'dark holes'  in the track, and the double-white lights show the ground signals matching the points.

(This particular panel was photographed in the Swedish Railway Museum - which used to be their training school)

 

Hornby's ZERO-1 pre-NMRA-dcc system from the late 70's/early 80's included a Micromimic Diagram in their 'Phase 2'

This is the 2-metre long diagram for my North Devon Layout from back in those days - 99 numbers controlling 130 points/signals. In my version signals used red and green LEDs (Hornby only supplied Red)  THE INTENTION was that the operator could use a LIGHT PEN (all the rage at that time) to operate any point / signal by simply pointing at it - and ROUTES were going to be remembered too.  UNFORTUNATELY Hornby ABANDONED ZERO-1 before releasing these parts  - leaving me with empty sockets marked 'Memory' and 'Light Pen' 8-(

I had a remote-keypad on a long cable I could use to set anything without having to go back to the central Zero-1 Controller.   It used 25 display modules.  (Wireless handsets were not available in those days either !)

The board was a matrix of holes, and the track was self adhesive paper.   IT HAD NO TRAIN POSITION FEEDBACK incorporated in the display.

TODAY an equivalent display can be made from commercial DCC modules....

 

DCC MICROMIMIC and Flat-Panel Displays

Moving on to DCC, flat screen TVs now existed - making their use for 'glass panel' displays practical, and replacing the need for a hardware version. However I did initially re-use some DCC Accessory and Micromimic panels to make the following for the new dcc version of the layout:  Several Manufacturers make appropriate ' display-modues' which can do the equivalent - with or without  switches in the diagrams

BECAUSE each of these simply ran from the DCC signal  - they could be located anywhere convenient around the layout (saving strain on the eyesight across 8m to read point numbers) .  THIS TIME 'Train Position Feedback' was included = and shown here as the named red panels.

 

THE LARGE SCREEN MONITOR VERSION of the track plan is shown below - designed to match the resolution of the displays used at the time (originally 768 lines, then 1080 Full HD, and later 1200, typical of newer computer monitors)  A CLICK on a POINT or SIGNAL changes it

I also had a centrally-positioned  24" Iyama Touch Screen Monitor used for this - until it was made incompatible by recent Windows Software updates ...  a potential problem with projects which take many years to 'complete'.  A mouse or trackball could equally be used - but I would use it simply as a display, and type in the accessory numbers or ROUTES on my handsets  ( Routes bacame available with the Blue and Black Multimauses).   The track display is from Rocomotion Software - the Roco-bundled version of the basic RR+Co - with a background graphic 'dropped in' behind the track plan to make it easier to relate the actual layout.  The BLANK BOXES are the 'train occupation' indicators.

[ I have the Roco feedback modules - but as I said before - other makes are now available and cheaper too - I now have Digikeijs for  our H0]

'SOFTWARE BUTTONS' on the screen can be used to set routes - or other activities.   

What looks like a colour light signal at the end of each train-box is used to tell the software which way IT can run the trains if automation is used.

 

Now the present generation of users can START with a simple Z21 application or similar  - where SOME OR ALL of the track plan is displayed on a handheld tablet screen - the APP SUPPORTS MULTIPLE PAGES/'screens'  - so that each station or junction can have its own page, if desired, ,AND/OR the page can be ZOOMED  to show only the area of immediate interest - making it easy to tap on a chosen point or signal.

ROUTES can ALSO be CREATED by simply storing a sequence of Accessory numbers and directions --- with some software this can be done semi-automatically simply by 'dragging your pointer along the route you want the train to take.  Nothing difficult - and no need to return to the layout builder.
(There are some minor caveats which have been found with experience - such as allowing long enough for to 1 point to finish moving  before the software sends the next point's command in the sequence  IF it is using the same module ... but it is a simple setting too.

 

Hopefully this summary has given you some idea of the possiblilities of Mimic or Glass Panel displays - which can be large or small, protable or fixed  - whatever best suits your needs.  Automation is NOT REQUIRED but can make good use of these options.

==========================================================================================

The images below resist deletion ... and are not referred to above - but since they are here, they show [1] power switches used for the whole layout - [2]  an alternative track plan made in a BBC BASIC program and [3] topological background for the track diagram,  and [4] scale drawing of the same 2-level H0 layout with connecting helix - it has a 'cabled' touch screen display (Rocomotion based) which 'centralises' 1 operator, and now an Android Tablet (Z21) version - giving complete walkabout freedom of the 360degree layout -  depending on which master controller is used.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Phil S
attempt to remove unwanted uploaded images x2 so added info

[pauliebanger]

8 hours ago, Art Dent said:

 

 

 

If you need a larger decoder - such that is required for the Heljan diesels - a decoder, such as the ESU Loksound L V4 or the ESU Loksound V4 XL is needed and the cost is in the region of £150-190 excluding fitting.

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

 

Or, ZIMO MX696S large scale decoder at around £130.

 

Actually, MX645 (£99 plus speaker) will be able to run most O gauge models (including Heljan diesels if onne motor is removed).

 

Paul

Edited March 12, 2019 by pauliebanger

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, pauliebanger said:

 

Or, ZIMO MX696S large scale decoder at around £130.

 

Actually, MX645 (£99 plus speaker) will be able to run most O gauge models (including Heljan diesels if onne motor is removed).

 

Paul

 

I have a 14xx loco for instance, how do you get the correct sounds on the card please

[Harlequin]

9 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

I have a 14xx loco for instance, how do you get the correct sounds on the card please

The simplest way is to buy the decoder, speaker and sound "project" from the same supplier so that when you receive the decoder the sounds are already programmed onto it and it's ready to install.

 

Which supplier you choose depends on whether you like their sounds for your chosen loco - different suppliers offer different recordings, different quality, different features, etc.

 

You can usually listen to the sounds on the supplier's websites before you buy. For instance, here is the YouChoos page for the 14XX:

http://www.youchoos.co.uk/Index-Shop.php?L1=Project&Item=GWR14XX

(The "listen" button is orange, near the top right.)

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Harlequin

[Tallpaul69]

On ‎13‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 10:08, hayfield said:

 

I have a 14xx loco for instance, how do you get the correct sounds on the card please

Not sure if the 14xx referred to is 00 or 0?

 

SO:-

 

For the sake of clarity can I suggest that SOMEONE starts an O Gauge version of this thread which will leave this one for OO as was the original intent?

 

Many thanks

Paul

[ROSSPOP]

On 13/03/2019 at 10:08, hayfield said:

 

I have a 14xx loco for instance, how do you get the correct sounds on the card please

 

For 4mm

Zimo MX645 sound decoder.

 

http://www.youchoos.co.uk/Index-Shop.php?L1=Project&Item=GWR14XX

 

For 7mm

Zimo MX645 sound decoder

 

http://www.youchoos.co.uk/Index-Shop.php?L1=Project&Item=GWR14XX

 

Youchoos sound....

 

 

 

[Izzy]

On 12/03/2019 at 09:16, melmerby said:

It rather depends on how many actual track sections there are going to be.

If it is a really simple layout not a lot of benefit from DCC IMHO.

 

 

Having to build small/minimum size layouts all my modelling life due to lack of space to do anything else I would say I find the opposite. That going DCC is of great benefit as soon as more than one loco is run at once. Indeed the ability to run one right up to another where track space is minimal is probably one of the greatest general benefits of DCC. There of course many more, simpler wiring, better/more consistent performance etc. Just depends on what you want really.

 

Izzy

[melmerby]

14 hours ago, Izzy said:

 

Having to build small/minimum size layouts all my modelling life due to lack of space to do anything else I would say I find the opposite. That going DCC is of great benefit as soon as more than one loco is run at once. Indeed the ability to run one right up to another where track space is minimal is probably one of the greatest general benefits of DCC. There of course many more, simpler wiring, better/more consistent performance etc. Just depends on what you want really.

 

Izzy

It rather depends on whether the small layout is the archetypal "Branch Line Terminus" at the end of a single line where only one engine at a time would normally seen.

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by melmerby

[hayfield]

17 minutes ago, melmerby said:

It rather depends on whether the small layout is the archetypal "Branch Line Terminus" at the end of a single line where only one engine at a time would normally seen.

 

 

Thanks for the reply, yes it will be a very simple design, which in practice would be one engine in steam at a time, however factious plan and my interests are more in building rather than prototypical running so modellers licence may rule operationally .

[Harlequin]

Remember DCC can be used to control more than just locos:

 

You might install DCC-controlled carriage lighting, with the pleasing ability to turn lights on and off in different compartments, optionally randomly, and to make them flicker in various ways.

 

You might like to use something like the Hornby TTS vent van to provide atmospheric sounds (but the actual Hornby implementation is of questionable value, especially for steam era). One of my favourite sounds in my 14XX (not YouChoos) is simply a blackbird singing - very atmospheric.

 

You might have DCC controlled trackside bits and pieces.

 

And point motors, of course - but that's getting into a slightly different area.

 

[Tallpaul69]

Hi Guys,

 

Having made the decision to go for DCC, I think this thread is done. It has served its purpose, so I will start A NEW ONE to kep everyone up to date on how it goes and to ask questions that are bound to come up!

 

Thanks to all for their contributions even if some did wander a long way from my original question and 00, my gauge of choice!

 

Best regards

Paul

[melmerby]

52 minutes ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Guys,

 

Having made the decision to go for DCC, I think this thread is done. It has served its purpose, so I will start A NEW ONE to kep everyone up to date on how it goes and to ask questions that are bound to come up!

 

Thanks to all for their contributions even if some did wander a long way from my original question and 00, my gauge of choice!

 

Best regards

Paul

Looking forward to seeing what you come up with.

Happy modelling

 

[Art Dent]

Best of luck Paul.

 

Look forward to seeing your onward journey and the questions that will inevitably crop up.

 

Art