To DCC or not?

[Tallpaul69]

I have only ever used DC control.

For a new layout I am being told that the cost of chipping 200 locos, that I have to run 5 different eras on a model (say 50/50 steam /diesel and of those 50/50 are with/without sockets)  is less than the cost of a control panel with mimic track diagrams for a 12ft x8ft 3 track round and round layout with 60+ points, 30 isolated sections, and 15 signals.

 

Any advice welcome, also any thoughts on types of equipment, and traps for the unwary?

 

Many  Thanks

Paul

[Junctionmad]

 

Simple good quality basic decoders from the likes of ZIMO can be got for around £22 , and cheaper noname brands from around £15 

 

the issue is is of course some locos are easy to fit ( generally later models ) but equally some may require extensive mods ( especially split chassis systems ) 

 

if your comfortable with that.  Then dcc conversion will be fine 

 

dcc command stations can be had from £50 to £300+,  but note dcc doesn’t give you mimic style operation by default , you have to add lots of bits to do that 

 

Equally DC control systems and mimic panels can be knocked up cheap especially if you are competent with basic electronics and wiring 

 

really the decision to go dcc shouldn’t be driven by a cost comparison with DC 

 

DCC offers far more realism , sound , simplier layout wiring and overall better performance compared to DC 

 

they are really not directly comparable because many features of DCC are very difficult to add to DC layouts , but this is only an advantage if you see these additional things as beneficial 

 

control of points and signals is possible with dcc ( and using virtual mimic panels etc ) but is an additional cost 

 

Dave 

Edited February 20, 2019 by Junctionmad

[Pete the Elaner]

Moving to DCC will not save you money. It may save your sanity though.

 

60 points + 30 isolating sections & 15 signals is well over 100 connections back to the panel. That is a lot of wiring to go wrong & a lot of work when it does.

If you use DCC to control these, you will need a fraction of that. You could choose to throw points with a handset, but with that many, I would not. I would prefer to use a control panel to send commands to the system. There is a very good range of products to do this.

You can forget about isolating sections, so that will take some of the clutter away from the panel.

If you later decide that you need to add an extra signal or 2, then you don't need much extra wiring for this, you just connect it to the nearest accessory decoder & control it form the system.

 

This passes over the biggest advantage DCC has to offer: it allows you to drive trains instead of the track. This may sound minor but I found it made a big difference.

 

I can see your location says Bedfordshire.

If you are anywhere near Kempston, our club night is tonight. We have just stripped a DC layout & are about to start re-building it as DCC. We have various levels of knowledge & experience. You will be more than welcome to say hello & ask any questions you like.

[WIMorrison]

With that number of locos and a decent amount of track then the other aspect that can be undertaken reasonably easily with DCC is automation of the layout - but you say I don't want to do that! However if you consider that with DCC automation you can have a dozen, or more, trains all running at the same time and not crashing into each other and you could drive a train yourself in the 'traditional' through the middle of these running trains. Think of how the layout would come to life with all that action

 

I admit it does cost money and time, but the end result is so satisfying and it isn't hard or expensive when you taken the first step by converting the layout to DCC.

[Phil S]

As always - evolution is easier and more successful than revolution ... by which I mean it is easier to 'implement dcc' from the start (design stage) with a new layout, than to adapt an exisitng ananlogue 'cab-control; sectinalised layout ! -  But if a new layout is considered 'revolution - a new biginning - then I have done this twice - once when Zero-1 was introduced  (by which time I had 32 locos with Zero-1 capable of identifying 16 ... and with 132 points+signals, I was using the 99 addresses to the maximum. It was the mimic diagram for it - 2m long, that I still have as a 'standalone device' which was the biggest cause of delay in changing to dcc .... the falling price of large screen TVs has made a track-display on screen som much easier to implement and unpdate with any changes. When I converted to Dcc from Z1, I only had about a 100 or so locos to change  ( I had had to go back to switchable storage sections to isolate HST rakes etc, whose codes I needed to reuse for other locos. To convert NOW rather than 10-15 years ago, is a lot easier than back then. 

ALL of our layouts use DCC: G scale in the garden or portable layouts (3-17m long), our transportable skandi H0 layout and our loft 00 ALL BENEFIT from the simplicity that FULL DCC control of the layout offers - EVERYTHING on the skandi layout can be operated off one of the wireless Roco Multimaus handsets (although we have started experimenting with the track diagram on a tablet for easy point changing - this being less necessary with the Multimaus than many other types because the handset INCLUDES a GRAPHIC of the point/signal (as does the Massoth Navigator - which we use on the garden G Scale). So that is H0, H0e, H0m and H0f !! , as well  as moving Magnorail bicycles/cars and any 'static accessories' whether level crossings or scenic items (like a falling tree) ... and soon to be added Faller cars via Opendcc to give speed control fromthe same handset(s) ... which can be operated with total freedom as one walks around the layout... even from behind the audience.

We are not tied to a fixed control panel - although we do use a touch screen with the skandi ...   so one operator may tnd to remain near there.

Wiring is simplified in that effectively only a few 'busses' are routed around a layout - with local modules for 1-8 devices as best for the location.  We have dcc accessories (low risk of shorting), dcc track(s) - each protected by PSX breakers as part of the  sub-division into manageable areas for fault-identification and connection .. avoiding surge problems from sound decoders or lots of lighting. and 12Vdcfor lighting ( 16Vac no longer needed for decoders since we changed to train-tech )   Which brings one to the realism in addition to the freedom which full digital control can offer - YOU can be driving the TRAIN ... as well as being a signalman ... and the lights stay on when the train stops.

Sound is related, and not just form Argo records.

 

NOTE that to include FEEDBACK - train detection, is ANOTHER LEVEL of digitisation - which allows the track display to show occupation, and then allows a computer to automate some aspects of the railway operation ... but this is NOT for all  AND  works better when the space available is LARGE ... otherwise trains need to stop and start as quickly as TRAMS to avoid reaching the next train position sensor unexpectedly.... and the setting for this can be a conflict between 'default' behaviour for SOUND equipped locos (startups, slow accelerations etc)  and the desires of the computer - tight instant response with the computer simulating the slow accelerations.

 

Looking at an 'instant - brickwall' conversion is daunting ...  (but Lenz StdV2 decoders can be bought for 15GBP/each in bulk) - 'dcc ready' locos may still need careful dissassembly - and reassembly! to access the connections. It would seem a 'waste' to scrap existing point control wiring BUT cab control sections can be used (ensuring no suppression capacitors in power feeds) - however, it is better to look afresh at what parts should be commoned and which isolatable = for faultfinding later. ( I now use WAGO lever-operated connectors - no screwdriver needed, and inter-board plugged connectors are automotive 1/4"/6mm spade terminal multiway plugs and sockets for the busses). Once you have a comfortable wireless smartphone or multimaus-capablillity giving you total freedom and full control, you won't want to go back to analogue cab sections !

 

 

[Alan Kettlewell]

I'm also an original Hornby Zero 1 user, then after a lot of years away from the hobby I started again with a DC (analogue) layout.  After taking a long time and feeding back what seemed like hundreds of wires to a mimic panel, I revisited modern DCC with some research - and saw the light!  This triggered an immediate switch to DCC, 40 odd locos were chipped with Lenz chips, out went the mimic panel and in came a laptop computer for control - what a world of difference.  This was 15 years ago and I've never looked back.

 

My most recent layout is state of the art, it can be operated fully automatically by the computer, or I can drive trains myself, or a combination of both.  I can trigger sounds anywhere in the room, automatically operate signals, level crossings or anything else you can imagine.  I can automate shuttle sequences, have the system change locos automatically (ie unattach and attach locos from a train by the use of DCC uncouplers),  play loco sounds for those locos fitted with sound chips, and even on locos without sound chips.  The system will drive trains with full collision protection by interlocking routes, amend speeds to obey signals and speed limits, delay in stations a preset time.  I can operate trains, points and accessories on the computer screen, on an iPad or tablet, on my smart phone or with a wireless handset.  Visitors can also operate the layout  using their own smartphones.  I could go on but the list is endless.

 

The reason for writing the above is to describe some of what can be achieved with DCC and what is already being acheived by many layout owners out there.  Now, full automation or computer control may not be for everyone, and there is of course a cost to it all.  The good thing is you don't have to go the whole 9 yards as I've done, but you can choose how far you want to go.  One thing I will say is that once converted you'll probably never look back.

 

As to equipment, I've deliberately left out direct recommendations because there are many good systems out there and you'll get more questions than there are answers.  The single best two bits of advice I can give are

 

A) visit as many DCC layouts as you can and get a feel for the systems available, go to shows and shops and talk to owners and providers. 

 

B) don't skimp on costs by buying cheap DCC decoders, they will disappoint.  A couple of great makes  have been mentioned already.

 

Oh and a final bit of advice - just do it!  And if you ever head north up the A1 through North Yorkshire pop in to have a play in my shed, the kettle' s always on.  It may well be the most expensive free lunch you ever have, but worth it .. lol...

 

Cheers ... Alan 

[Clive Mortimore]

2 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I have only ever used DC control.

For a new layout I am being told that the cost of chipping 200 locos, that I have to run 5 different eras on a model (say 50/50 steam /diesel and of those 50/50 are with/without sockets)  is less than the cost of a control panel with mimic track diagrams for a 12ft x8ft 3 track round and round layout with 60+ points, 30 isolated sections, and 15 signals.

 

Any advice welcome, also any thoughts on types of equipment, and traps for the unwary?

 

Many  Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul

 

Does you layout work?

 

Do you enjoy operating it?

 

Why change?

 

Save your money or buy more locos and stock.

 

 

 

 

[melmerby]

I started out with the aim of a computer controlled DC (yes DC) layout, long before DCC had come to the market

I had worked up some of the components and the computer was a BBC Micro, controlling it via the bus.

I had 4 digital-analog converters driving 4 PWM dc motor controllers. There was a switching panel (to be replaced by relays later) to select the sections and there was even a way of detecting locos in section.

BUT the amount of wiring was astronomical. Computer control but wired liked DC. I spend many years on and off and after a several year hiatus DCC had been launched.

My wonder system was obsolete at a stroke!

When I came back to the hobby DCC it was. Never looked back.

[melmerby]

Don't be put off by those saying  putting a DCC chip in a split chassis loco is difficult, it isn't.

I've done Mainline ones. But their poor running makes it a fruitless operation IMHO.

The major problem with non-DCC ready locos is, as has been mentioned, space as there quiote often isn't any or enough.

[Philou]

Hi Tallpaul69,

 

Just chucking in my tuppence worth - I too have come back to the hobby after a break of nearly 50 (is it really that long ago!?) years. I started re-collecting stock in 2014 ready for the big day when I (eventually) start my layout and having had a sound fitted loco demonstrated to me, I was hooked. DCC for me it is.

 

I too am looking at simplifying signal and point operation - not automation particularly - but it may come later.

 

'Vanilla' DCC chips are cheap enough - but if you want sound - the good makes are NOT cheap (about £115 each). However, if 'sound' is what you should like you could listen to a couple of Hornby TTS chips (about £35) and see if you like. And you don't have to have sound ;).

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[WIMorrison]

3 hours ago, Phil S said:

….

 

NOTE that to include FEEDBACK - train detection, is ANOTHER LEVEL of digitisation - which allows the track display to show occupation, and then allows a computer to automate some aspects of the railway operation ... but this is NOT for all  AND  works better when the space available is LARGE ... otherwise trains need to stop and start as quickly as TRAMS to avoid reaching the next train position sensor unexpectedly.... and the setting for this can be a conflict between 'default' behaviour for SOUND equipped locos (startups, slow accelerations etc)  and the desires of the computer - tight instant response with the computer simulating the slow accelerations.

 

...

 

 

 

Putting feedbacks onto a layout is the easiest of all tasks when digitising a layout, when wiring up the layout everyone takes droppers from the track to a bus, for feedbacks all you do is wire one side of the track to the feedback units instead of the bus - what could be simpler.

 

The situation you describe with trains sopping and starting is not something you will see unless you have too many trains on the layout, and even then the trains stopping is undertaken gradually and under control, it is not unexpected in any way, it is fully controlled. There is also no conflict with sound or computer control.

 

in short, you are complexly wrong and putting out a totally incorrect message.

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

I started out with the aim of a computer controlled DC (yes DC) layout, long before DCC had come to the market

I had worked up some of the components and the computer was a BBC Micro, controlling it via the bus.

I had 4 digital-analog converters driving 4 PWM dc motor controllers. There was a switching panel (to be replaced by relays later) to select the sections and there was even a way of detecting locos in section.

BUT the amount of wiring was astronomical. Computer control but wired liked DC. I spend many years on and off and after a several year hiatus DCC had been launched.

My wonder system was obsolete at a stroke!

When I came back to the hobby DCC it was. Never looked back.

 

I had a crack at controlling from a Beeb in the late 80s/early 90s but didn't get far - not because it couldn't do it but life got in the way. 

[Corbs]

We are currently building a large and ambitious home layout, originally intending to run it on DC as all the stock is Analogue. The task of wiring it all up was not only daunting, it was scary.

Eventually we bought an NCE powercab each and some cheap decoders from eBay (£10 each) it’s like a night and day difference. I was wiring in the DCC bus yesterday and we were up and running multiple locos in no time, flicking back and forth between them with ease.

Wiring issues are now easier to trace, too, as there are fewer of them!

For me, DCC is the way forward for large locos, I will probably continue to convert small locos or locos that have limited pick-ups to Battery Power/Radio Control but that’s not for everyone.

You would not regret it!

[NIK]

5 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

I have only ever used DC control.

For a new layout I am being told that the cost of chipping 200 locos, that I have to run 5 different eras on a model (say 50/50 steam /diesel and of those 50/50 are with/without sockets)  is less than the cost of a control panel with mimic track diagrams for a 12ft x8ft 3 track round and round layout with 60+ points, 30 isolated sections, and 15 signals.

 

Any advice welcome, also any thoughts on types of equipment, and traps for the unwary?

 

Many  Thanks

Paul

Hi Paul,

 

To answer your question on costs it all depends if the control panel/mimic diagrams/wiring are being made by a professional for you and how much they would charge. If they are being made professionally and they charge enough money then the cost of chipping 200 locos might be less (although there needs to be a cost of a DCC command station on top).

 

As a general point DCC hardware (even using MERG kits) is more expensive than that for and equivalent DC layout (there may be exceptions such as extra long layouts in gardens where the cost of DC cabling might swing the balance).

 

If however part or whole of a layout is being made professionally then the balance can change as DCC layouts are easier to wire up and diagnose.

 

As for types of equipment - perhaps avoid Hornby and Bachmann as they have an interest in tying you into their other products and don't have quite the same interest in satisfying all their customers as a firm that only sells DCC equipment.

 

Also equipment choice depends on whether you think you would like to add computer assistance software at a later date. Some DCC systems either don't have computer interfaces or have limitations as to what features can be interfaced. If you would like to add computer assistance software at a later date best to research what software might suit and pick from hardware that works with that.

 

Traps for the unwary - not all DCC loco decoders perform equally well - see RMWeb topics on strangely behaving decoders.

DCC loco decoder current capability: buy a DC current meter and measure what your locos consume at maximum speed - that is the second parameter to look for in a DCC decoder after will it fit.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

 

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, NIK said:

DCC loco decoder current capability: buy a DC current meter and measure what your locos consume at maximum speed - that is the second parameter to look for in a DCC decoder after will it fit.

 

Regards

 

Nick

 

Unless you are using a large or old loco the chance of drawing too much current is minimal.

On a recent test I found that with about 30 locos (non sound) sitting at various places around the layout the track current was about 750 mA, this includes some LEDs also on the feed.

With seven of those were running (4 trains, 2 Diesel railcars & a light loco) the current just topped 1400mA.

This suggests that at worst the locos on average are drawing about 130mA each on load.

The minimum rating I have seen for motor current is 500mA on "N" size decoders.

 

The trains were 00 by Hornby, Bachmann & Dapol

[Alan Kettlewell]

Interesting chat about current draw.  I attach a picture from my layout thread that shows the Roco Z21 screen.  Here it can be seen there's a current draw of under half an amp - this was two HO Locos, fairly modern models, one is running with sound on.  This concurs with the info that more modern locos consume much less power than some of the older models.  It's also an extremely useful tool to have available.  

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Alan Kettlewell said:

Interesting chat about current draw.  I attach a picture from my layout thread that shows the Roco Z21 screen.  Here it can be seen there's a current draw of under half an amp - this was two HO Locos, fairly modern models, one is running with sound on.  This concurs with the info that more modern locos consume much less power than some of the older models.  It's also an extremely useful tool to have available.  

 

 

That's where my figures come from.

(there was a similar readout on the DR5000)

Edited February 20, 2019 by melmerby

[NIK]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

Unless you are using a large or old loco the chance of drawing too much current is minimal.

On a recent test I found that with about 30 locos (non sound) sitting at various places around the layout the track current was about 750 mA, this includes some LEDs also on the feed.

With seven of those were running (4 trains, 2 Diesel railcars & a light loco) the current just topped 1400mA.

This suggests that at worst the locos on average are drawing about 130mA each on load.

The minimum rating I have seen for motor current is 500mA on "N" size decoders.

 

The trains were 00 by Hornby, Bachmann & Dapol

Hi,

 

The OP did not say what locos he had. I've attached a spreadsheet of the thirstiest OO locos I'd measured up to 2018.

Most of the locos I've tested have been less than 500ma on 12V DC. However Heljan post prototype diesel mainline locos were 500ma or higher, as was my Dapol class 73 and Hornby 31, HST(new type) and Pendolino.

 

A lot of people have large locos and many have old locos so the chance of drawing too much current having no information about the fleet is difficult to describe as minimal.

 

Regards

 

Nick

[Butler Henderson]

Many non dcc ready locos are however simple to hard wire a decoder to if with the body off their is space for a decoder and  the pick ups and motor connections are readily identifiable. A quick search here / on Google show throw up solutions for most locos. Agree that the big benefit of dcc is the lack of a need for a  control panel with all of its associated wiring - people bemoan the cost of accessory decoders but few factor in the cost, time and record keeping needed for a analogue layout. The time saved under the board means more time available for the more interesting work above board.

[Tallpaul69]

17 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Paul

 

Does you layout work?

 

Do you enjoy operating it?

 

Why change?

 

Save your money or buy more locos and stock.

 

 

 

 

Hi Clive

The layout is not yet built, hence the question!

Cheers

[Phil S]

An important observation about current required: IF your layout has a GRADIENT then the current draw required can increase considerably .... and this will also increase with the load being hauled - under these circumstances, you may be better looking at the stall current  as a safe maximum (it can't get worse 8-) ) 

ohms ..   4% Gradient>>>  4/100 x the weight of the train  as the extra load being lifted compared to level.

 

A real life example FYI: Malmsbanen in Sweden-Norway.. with regenerative braking and IORE 9000kW locos; they now achieve neutral energy consumption with 6200kg Ore trains heading downhill to Narvik from Kiruna and empties going back up! A computer-derived speed profile avoids stops in their new, longer passing loops for the 'down' trains.

In G scale we can 'get away' with the 3.2A limit of a Roco Amplifier on the portable layouts .. but in the garden with longer trains and gradients, we can use 5-8A 

[Tallpaul69]

19 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

Moving to DCC will not save you money. It may save your sanity though.

 

60 points + 30 isolating sections & 15 signals is well over 100 connections back to the panel. That is a lot of wiring to go wrong & a lot of work when it does.

If you use DCC to control these, you will need a fraction of that. You could choose to throw points with a handset, but with that many, I would not. I would prefer to use a control panel to send commands to the system. There is a very good range of products to do this.

You can forget about isolating sections, so that will take some of the clutter away from the panel.

If you later decide that you need to add an extra signal or 2, then you don't need much extra wiring for this, you just connect it to the nearest accessory decoder & control it form the system.

 

This passes over the biggest advantage DCC has to offer: it allows you to drive trains instead of the track. This may sound minor but I found it made a big difference.

 

I can see your location says Bedfordshire.

If you are anywhere near Kempston, our club night is tonight. We have just stripped a DC layout & are about to start re-building it as DCC. We have various levels of knowledge & experience. You will be more than welcome to say hello & ask any questions you like.

Hi Pete,

Unfortunately I am in Leighton Buzzard, and without transport!

Thanks anywayi

[Junctionmad]

2 hours ago, Tallpaul69 said:

Hi Clive

The layout is not yet built, hence the question!

Cheers

 

 

For a new build , it makes serious sense to go DCC , or DCC and a layout control bus 

 

wiring is expensive , time consuming and difficult to debug. Systems that reduce wiring complexity are better 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Give it a try. there's no substitute for your own experience. Buy quality and see how it works for you.

 

The vast majority of DCC users were DC users before. I was smitten after 10 minutes. No need for isolating sections when parking locos nose to tail. Complete freedom of placement, still get a kick out of that.

[Simon G]

Paul,

 

one suggestion for you is to have a layout switchable between DC and DCC.  This is what I am building at present.  It does require a bit more thought, but will give me all the operational facility that I want, and it means that I don’t have to chip all my locos.  My MRC has already done this and it works well, as long as there is a certain discipline when switching between the two, especially in isolating or removing DC locos prior to switching to DCC.

 

it is worth noting that IMHO, locos are more sensitive to track status under DCC control.  Slow shunting of Hornby 0-6-0 locos often results in stalling on Insulfrog points, whereas they are less likely to stall on DC.  For that reason, I have gone with electro frog points.  This in turn does add complexity to the wiring, but I think it will be worth it in the end.