Problems with Cooper Craft

[Talltim]

Sort of like Walthers does (or did) in the US

[Fat Controller]

48 minutes ago, Talltim said:

Sort of like Walthers does (or did) in the US

This is how W&H operated, wasn't it? I recollect their annual catalogue was a veritable treasure-trove of bits they either had manufactured themselves, or distributed  on behalf of others. More recently, the sadly-missed 'Mainly Trains' followed a similar model.

[Joseph_Pestell]

No, not quite the same. Both Walther's and W&H were conventional retailers with a wholesale division as well.

 

The wholesale division would have stocked (i.e. paid for) all the items concerned. That has a big financial impact in terms of the investment in all that stock that may be sitting around for a long time. And that financial impact has to be reflected in a high profit margin that will increase the price of the items.

 

I am suggesting an agency model where the stock would remain the property of the manufacturer until sold to the end user. The agent would take a commission, something in the region of 10 - 15%, as a handling fee. This is probably what it is costing the artisans now to administer the sales, pack, etc. So the price of the goods to the end user would remain the same as now.

[Steamport Southport]

My main point is that he can't even supply stocks to sell himself. He's not suddenly going to supply loads of items for a distributor to sell.

 

10% of sod all is sod all I'm afraid.

 

Mainly Trains was mentioned. That was a shop. It was only when winding down after retirement that it became more of a distributor.

 

The closest I can think of that is being suggested is 247 Developments or Wizard. 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

5 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

My main point is that he can't even supply stocks to sell himself. He's not suddenly going to supply loads of items for a distributor to sell.

 

10% of sod all is sod all I'm afraid.

 

Mainly Trains was mentioned. That was a shop. It was only when winding down after retirement that it became more of a distributor.

 

The closest I can think of that is being suggested is 247 Developments or Wizard. 

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

 

Of course, we take that point. But if he was not spending so much time "firefighting", he might get himself into a position where he could start producing. And there are others in a similar position.

 

He has reached a point where very few people would be willing to buy from him online. A middle man (woman) with a sensible T&Cs could get more business.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Joseph_Pestell
Corrected typo

[Steamport Southport]

I seriously doubt the guy would trade with other people. Others have tried to help him and he refused.

 

Likewise most other suppliers. Many of them are doing it as a hobby. If they suddenly need to start making things in bulk then they become full time. Then they have to start paying tax, etc. If that is what they want then surely they would already be doing that?

 

Just look at RT Models recently. He needed to take a break from selling models as real life was getting in the way. One pays the bills, the other is a hobby. I would think that is the same for most small suppliers.

 

 

Jason

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

I seriously doubt the guy would trade with other people. Others have tried to help him and he refused.

 

Likewise most other suppliers. Many of them are doing it as a hobby. If they suddenly need to start making things in bulk then they become full time. Then they have to start paying tax, etc. If that is what they want then surely they would already be doing that?

 

Just look at RT Models recently. He needed to take a break from selling models as real life was getting in the way. One pays the bills, the other is a hobby. I would think that is the same for most small suppliers.

 

 

Jason

 

You are really not getting it.

 

1) They would not need to make any more than they are now. But they could because they would not be spending time on marketing activities.

 

2) Your citing of RT Models rather proves my point. If someone else was processing the orders for him, he may have been able to continue.

[Siberian Snooper]

Most of these one man bands are quite happy to potter about in the shed when the fancy takes them, it's a hobby which happens to occasionally make a few Bob. I think most of those still doing it are retired.

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

I suggest reflecting on how the Small Supplier market works might make the idea of using a fulfillment agent impractical.

 

One of the things that can take up quite a lot of a Small Suppliers time are the detailed enquiries that sometimes accompany a product sales enquiry.  Many customers like to develop a close, one on one, relationship with the producer (much like the RTR collectors like to join the Bachmann, Hornby or A.N. Others Collectors Clubs). In addition, it is sometimes necessary for producers to run with low stocks for space and financial reasons, operating  "just in time" production as far as is possible.

Expecting the "fulfillment" agent to provide the technical backup is impractical. Providing a full range of stock to to agent, who would need to operate a very effective stock management system,  would probably involve a greater outlay for the producer.

 

Who would be responsible for representing the producer at shows? If he still has to do this himself - the preferred option to keep in touch with the customer - then either he has to recover his stock for the event or carry a duplicate amount stock with the financial burden that incurs. So that negates the space saving provided by the agent.

 

None of this really applies to the Cooper Craft discussion. A  look back at the previous topics on this supplier show that the current owner is unwilling to accept advice, offers of support, etc. He is painted as something of a rogue. I think it is more to to with his inability to run the production side of the business effectively, a personality that doesn't recognise his own ability to do so and a lack of understanding of what "retailing" actually involves nowadays.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2019 by Jol Wilkinson
Spelling/grammar

[friscopete]

All anyone needs a an ebay shop .Its that simple .20 quid a month plus the usual fees which despite odd comments are perfectly reasonable  for an international sales site ,.Just list what you have  actually in stock and all is well.I have used one for decades.

[sharris]

6 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

...One of the things that can take up quite a lot of a Small Suppliers time are the detailed enquiries that sometimes accompany a product sales enquiry... 

 

Agreed, Jol - one of the other benefits of small suppliers keeping things in house is that for clumsy klutzes like me, if I break or lose a casting or something from a kit, I can email John at LRM (for example) and ask if I can have a replacement bit and he might be able to send a spare one from stock, or from the caster's next batch. It is quite possible that these parts would not be economical to sell in enough quantity on their own if a 3rd party was handling orders and had to be pre-stocked with them.

 

[Spitfire2865]

21 hours ago, S&CR said:

 

Was that the 'liberate' bit or Trading Standards? If they can't close a fraudster like this down, what use are they?

I think the trading standards bit.

Regardless, I dont think the "liberating" bit would go well for any party involved.  Especially if there is no bits to "liberate".

[RThompson]

On 20 March 2019 at 15:07, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

You are really not getting it.

 

1) They would not need to make any more than they are now. But they could because they would not be spending time on marketing activities.

 

2) Your citing of RT Models rather proves my point. If someone else was processing the orders for him, he may have been able to continue.

After a month and a half or so, I did re open RT Models as the amount of work I was undertaking had calmed down by then and gave me a bit of a break that I needed.

 

When you do everything by yourself it does get too much.

 

Unfortunately for someone else to process orders on my behalf is not that easy as it is vast and is spread across several premises as well as having to pay them.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 21/03/2019 at 09:28, friscopete said:

All anyone needs a an ebay shop .Its that simple .20 quid a month plus the usual fees which despite odd comments are perfectly reasonable  for an international sales site ,.Just list what you have  actually in stock and all is well.I have used one for decades.

 

Selling stuff on the internet is indeed quite straightforward. But listing a large range of items and keeping the info up to date is time-consuming.

 

And you can't deliver much over the internet. Most products need packing and sending.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 21/03/2019 at 09:17, Jol Wilkinson said:

I suggest reflecting on how the Small Supplier market works might make the idea of using a fulfillment agent impractical.

 

One of the things that can take up quite a lot of a Small Suppliers time are the detailed enquiries that sometimes accompany a product sales enquiry.  Many customers like to develop a close, one on one, relationship with the producer (much like the RTR collectors like to join the Bachmann, Hornby or A.N. Others Collectors Clubs). In addition, it is sometimes necessary for producers to run with low stocks for space and financial reasons, operating  "just in time" production as far as is possible.

Expecting the "fulfillment" agent to provide the technical backup is impractical. Providing a full range of stock to to agent, who would need to operate a very effective stock management system,  would probably involve a greater outlay for the producer.

 

Who would be responsible for representing the producer at shows? If he still has to do this himself - the preferred option to keep in touch with the customer - then either he has to recover his stock for the event or carry a duplicate amount stock with the financial burden that incurs. So that negates the space saving provided by the agent.

 

None of this really applies to the Cooper Craft discussion. A  look back at the previous topics on this supplier show that the current owner is unwilling to accept advice, offers of support, etc. He is painted as something of a rogue. I think it is more to to with his inability to run the production side of the business effectively, a personality that doesn't recognise his own ability to do so and a lack of understanding of what "retailing" actually involves nowadays. 

 

 

 

Jol. I do have experience both as a retailer and "small producer". I know that this can be done and indeed have done it to some extent in the past.

 

There would be nothing to stop customers still seeking advice directly from the producer where appropriate. Nor would it mean that the producer could/should not attend appropriate exhibitions/events although I do take your point about it possibly leading to a duplication of stock. Most likely solution to that is for the agent to do the show with the producer in attendance (I used to do this in Paris)  but there are probably other solutions too.

 

But it would remove a lot of the daily pressure. And we have all experienced those customers who take up the most time but spend the least money. At the end of the day, it's a business and time is money.

 

As to Paul Dunne (CooperCraft), I don't think that he lacks ability. He is failing currently because he is not coping with the stress.

[jonhall]

 

On 21/03/2019 at 09:28, friscopete said:

All anyone needs a an ebay shop .Its that simple .20 quid a month plus the usual fees which despite odd comments are perfectly reasonable  for an international sales site ,.Just list what you have  actually in stock and all is well.I have used one for decades.

 

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Selling stuff on the internet is indeed quite straightforward. But listing a large range of items and keeping the info up to date is time-consuming.

 

And you can't deliver much over the internet. Most products need packing and sending.

 

As far as outsiders can tell, the problem seems to be he can't MANUFACTURE his product, that's the roadblock to rebuilding the business, however even if he could do that, I suspect the reputational damage is so severe that it would take someone very brave to place big orders. Packing, selling and shipping the stuff is really easy by comparison.

 

Jon

 

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 hours ago, jonhall said:

 

 

 

As far as outsiders can tell, the problem seems to be he can't MANUFACTURE his product, that's the roadblock to rebuilding the business, however even if he could do that, I suspect the reputational damage is so severe that it would take someone very brave to place big orders. Packing, selling and shipping the stuff is really easy by comparison.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

I think that he could manufacture the product if he was focused on that. You are right that it is actually more complicated than the matter of packing and shipping but potentially less stressful for someone like him.

 

As to reputational damage, that is perhaps the main advantage of a distribution arrangement. The agent does not need/want to take payment for stuff that is not readily available.

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I think that he could manufacture the product if he was focused on that.

After a short conversation with him some time ago, I don't think he has any idea.

[Jol Wilkinson]

12 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Jol. I do have experience both as a retailer and "small producer". I know that this can be done and indeed have done it to some extent in the past.

 

There would be nothing to stop customers still seeking advice directly from the producer where appropriate. Nor would it mean that the producer could/should not attend appropriate exhibitions/events although I do take your point about it possibly leading to a duplication of stock. Most likely solution to that is for the agent to do the show with the producer in attendance (I used to do this in Paris)  but there are probably other solutions too.

 

But it would remove a lot of the daily pressure. And we have all experienced those customers who take up the most time but spend the least money. At the end of the day, it's a business and time is money.

 

As to Paul Dunne (CooperCraft), I don't think that he lacks ability. He is failing currently because he is not coping with the stress.

Joseph,

 

I too have been a retailer and am still closely involved with the business of a Smaller Supplier of kits and bits. That leads me to think your business model does not provide such as great a benefit as you believe. 

• The producer loses some of his margin.
• He/she will still have to deal with some of the enquiries directly, the more technical ones that take the most time.
• We have seen new owners of Small Supplier businesses get into problems because they don't  have the corporate knowledge that the original owner had. The same would apply to the agent, who would end up asking the producer some the questions asked of him by customers. Adding an extra link in the chain might be counter productive
• Does the agent "do" the exhibitions, does the producer or both (more expenses).

While it might, in theory, work for someone with poor direct sales skills or who can't cope with the workload he has created, I think most Small Suppliers don't need to take such action.

In the case of the Paul Dunn, the stress you believe he is under comes from his inability to get the products he took over back into production. Have you tried to contact Paul Dunn with an offer of help or guidance? An original owners of one  of the ranges he took over discussed the situation with me some years ago. Put simply, Mr Dunn had failed to correctly utilise the tooling he had bought, had unsuccessfully tried to adapt it to a different type of moulding machine and had declined to accept any offers of help.

 

Jol

[TheTurfBurner]

14 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

As to Paul Dunne (CooperCraft), I don't think that he lacks ability. He is failing currently because he is not coping with the stress.

 

This has nothing to do with "stress" - Dunn is a crook who takes customer's money and gives nothing in return. Neither the products ordered nor a refund will ever be seen. 

 

If you look back in the pinned and now closed CooperCraft thread, you will see he has simply ignored all actions I have taken against him. He also knows how to "play the game", having refused entry to the Somerset Bailiffs and simply lied when contacted by the Consumer Affairs Editor of The Daily Telegraph.

 

If there is anybody out there who still thinks Dunn has simply fallen on hard times, read this: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.cooper-craft.co.uk

 

And please add to the Trust Pilot comments if you have been defrauded by this person.

 

I am logging off and will make no further comment on this thread.

[Joseph_Pestell]

35 minutes ago, TheTurfBurner said:

 

This has nothing to do with "stress" - Dunn is a crook who takes customer's money and gives nothing in return. Neither the products ordered nor a refund will ever be seen. 

 

If you look back in the pinned and now closed CooperCraft thread, you will see he has simply ignored all actions I have taken against him. He also knows how to "play the game", having refused entry to the Somerset Bailiffs and simply lied when contacted by the Consumer Affairs Editor of The Daily Telegraph.

 

If there is anybody out there who still thinks Dunn has simply fallen on hard times, read this: https://www.trustpilot.com/review/www.cooper-craft.co.uk

 

And please add to the Trust Pilot comments if you have been defrauded by this person.

 

I am logging off and will make no further comment on this thread.

 

I am not unsympathetic to your situation. But having met Paul Dunne, my conclusion is that he is not a crook, he is severely ill and not coping.

[raymw]

must be a most peculiar illness that allows one to accept payments, but not supply the goods or give the appropriate refunds. It's obviously a long term illness, too, which should have received treatment by now. Is dishonesty now classed as an illness? I've met the guy, been to his works, managed to recover some repayments from him for an rmweber, etc, etc. It's not an illness, it's more like the Somerset yokel obstinacy, There are many like that 'out in the sticks'. It's simple, don't pay up front, only pay when you get the goods, at shows, wherever. He is good at playing the victim.

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, TheTurfBurner said:

Dunn is a crook who takes customer's money and gives nothing in return.

 

I've warned you before about masking incorrect assertions; do you have any evidence a criminal conviction has been made? You've put yourself in a position where he could have a claim for libel against you.

 

2 hours ago, TheTurfBurner said:

I am logging off and will make no further comment on this thread.

 

You've said that before too yet you re-appear.

[polybear]

7 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I am not unsympathetic to your situation. But having met Paul Dunne, my conclusion is that he is not a crook, he is severely ill and not coping.

 

He seems perfectly able to take money without supplying goods, then managing to have a good grasp of the law and fend off the Bailliffs empty handed.  I'd call that coping pretty well.......

[Garethp8873]

Just out of curiosity, how long has the "A replacement machine has come and hoping to start production for the Cooper Craft, Mailcoach & Kirk LNER in the near future." been on the Cooper Craft homepage? I don't recall seeing that on there last time I checked...