Signal This

[Ruston]

Evening all,

 

I am looking for some advice on the placing of signals on the track diagram of a through station, below. It is for a privately-owned light railway circa 1900.

All lines, apart from the passing loop, are single track

Obviously passenger traffic has to use the platform so both tracks on the loop need to be signalled for running in both directions.

Some trains, both goods and passenger, will not run through and the locomotive will need to run round, so I guess there will have to be some ground signals?

I would like to use the minimum amount of signals that could be got away with under whatever rules governed such a railway at the time (it will not be operated with just One Engine in Steam).

 

 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ruston

[RailWest]

If a 'true' Light Railway, then you could probably get away with as little or as much signalling as you want :-) Maybe just a Home in each direction, possibly a Home and Starting in each direction, forget the sophistication of ground-signals etc . Some idea of what lies off to the RH end might help....

[Ruston]

6 minutes ago, RailWest said:

If a 'true' Light Railway, then you could probably get away with as little or as much signalling as you want :-) Maybe just a Home in each direction, possibly a Home and Starting in each direction, forget the sophistication of ground-signals etc . Some idea of what lies off to the RH end might help....

So, just one signal at each end of the platform? That would suffice for trains leaving the loop from either track? At the RH end is the terminus station, with goods facilities but also other industrial concerns with rail connections.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Ruston

[RLWP]

Just now, Ruston said:

So, just one signal at each end of the platform? That would suffice for trains leaving the loop from either track? IAt the RH end is the terminus station, with goods facilities but also other industrial concerns with rail connections.

 

How would a train from the quarry know it was safe to proceed?

 

Richard

[Gordon A]

Assuming platform and loop line are bidirectional, and you wish to be able to pass passenger and freight trains.

Starter signals at each end of the platform and loop, and a ground signal or short arm signal for leaving the quarry line.

Any other signals such as outer homes would be off scene. Possible a signal controlling entry on to the quarry line.

 

Gordon A

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, RailWest said:

If a 'true' Light Railway, then you could probably get away with as little or as much signalling as you want :-) Maybe just a Home in each direction, possibly a Home and Starting in each direction, forget the sophistication of ground-signals etc . Some idea of what lies off to the RH end might help....

I agree wholeheartedly with this.  

 

If this were to be 'fully signalled' to match the required movements over two bi-directional loops there is going to be a veritable forest of signals which would look about as much early 20th century  'light railway' as some of today's so called 'heritage' railways where signals proliferate far beyond what woudl have been seen at similar stations 60 years ago.  So if the the basic theme is 'light railway' then it would truly be minimalist signalling.    So at the very most a Home Signal and a Staring Signal in each direction with the non-platform line loop regarded more as a siding than anything else so no other running signals provided for it.

 

The station would presumably have to be a (train) staff or token station because trains serving the quarries might terminate or start there so the requirements would in that case specify a Home and startong Signal in each direction,.  But if it was not a staff station you could legitimately get away with no fixed signals at all or perhaps just go for a Home Signal in each direction.

[Ruston]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

I agree wholeheartedly with this.  

 

If this were to be 'fully signalled' to match the required movements over two bi-directional loops there is going to be a veritable forest of signals which would look about as much early 20th century  'light railway' as some of today's so called 'heritage' railways where signals proliferate far beyond what woudl have been seen at similar stations 60 years ago.  So if the the basic theme is 'light railway' then it would truly be minimalist signalling.    So at the very most a Home Signal and a Staring Signal in each direction with the non-platform line loop regarded more as a siding than anything else so no other running signals provided for it.

 

The station would presumably have to be a (train) staff or token station because trains serving the quarries might terminate or start there so the requirements would in that case specify a Home and startong Signal in each direction,.  But if it was not a staff station you could legitimately get away with no fixed signals at all or perhaps just go for a Home Signal in each direction.

Thanks for that, Mike. You've definitely got the idea of what I want to portray.

 

The 'home' signal is one that would be on the approach to the station, yes? And the 'starter' is one that would be at the platform end and could only be pulled off when the token for the single line section is back with the signalman? A goods train leaving the loop does not actually need a signal because having the single line token in the driver's possession means that there's nothing up ahead anyway and it's safe to proceed?

 

12 hours ago, RLWP said:

 

How would a train from the quarry know it was safe to proceed?

 

Richard

The driver has to stop before the catch point anyway, so a stop board will suffice. He's opposite the box and within shouting distance and so the signalman will change the points and shout and wave a green flag when it's safe to proceed.

Edited February 24, 2019 by Ruston

[RLWP]

14 minutes ago, Ruston said:

The driver has to stop before the catch point anyway, so a stop board will suffice. He's opposite the box and within shouting distance and so the signalman will change the points and shout and wave a green flag when it's safe to proceed.

 

Too uncertain. The quarry train driver just misunderstood the green flag and ran out in front of the non-stopping up passenger train. He's been arrested for manslaughter

 

There really should have be a starting signal to control exit from the quarry

 

Richard

[bécasse]

Even if you intend to allow passenger and goods train to pass (and bear in mind that, unless there was a source of mineral traffic on the line, separate goods trains would have been unusual on a light railway of that era), you need no more than a home (and distant) signal for each direction. The Lynton & Barnstaple was a contemporary example (you can ignore the fact that it was narrow gauge) and initially there were no starting signals, the fact that the driver had received the appropriate token (or staff) sufficed as authority to enter the section above. (Starting signals were subsequently added to prove that the trailing loop points were correctly set, following a few "running through" incidents.)

 

All the points shown (bar the catch points in the quarry line) should have facing point locks but possibly without locking bars, and the use of economical fpls was popular on light railways of this period as the same lever worked both point and fpl.

[DCB]

Just now, RLWP said:

 

Too uncertain. The quarry train driver just misunderstood the green flag and ran out in front of the non-stopping up passenger train. He's been arrested for manslaughter

 

There really should have be a starting signal to control exit from the quarry

 

Richard

That's why the safety conscious and far sighted management installed a catch point.  

[bécasse]

2 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

Too uncertain. The quarry train driver just misunderstood the green flag and ran out in front of the non-stopping up passenger train. He's been arrested for manslaughter

 

There really should have be a starting signal to control exit from the quarry

 

There is absolutely no need for a signal to control the exit from the quarry (but only because it is a light railway). The idea that a quarry train driver could run out in front of a non-stopping passenger train is absolute nonsense, quite apart from the fact that he would have to be in possession of the token/staff to come out onto the running line, the catch points would derail his train (hopefully away from the running line).

[The Stationmaster]

24 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Thanks for that, Mike. You've definitely got the idea of what I want to portray.

 

The 'home' signal is one that would be on the approach to the station, yes? And the 'starter' is one that would be at the platform end and could only be pulled off when the token for the single line section is back with the signalman? A goods train leaving the loop does not actually need a signal because having the single line token in the driver's possession means that there's nothing up ahead anyway and it's safe to proceed?

 

The driver has to stop before the catch point anyway, so a stop board will suffice. He's opposite the box and within shouting distance and so the signalman will change the points and shout and wave a green flag when it's safe to proceed.

The Home Signal is the first one a train approaching the station will come to - ideally at the toe of the points at each end - no need to go any further back.  The Starting Signals would be at the exit ends (in each direction of course) from the platform.  As I said I would tend to treat the loop more as a siding than a running line as it makes things far simpler (i.e. fewer signals)  and as you say the Driver would have the 'token' in his possession as proper authority to run through the section.

 

Incidentally tokens - as we understand them referring to a particular and distinct type of single line signalling method - hadn't been invented by the time of your layout.  Most likely Train Staff would have been used, probably with 'tickets' depending on the frequency of trains although exceptionally (and I think unusually) one of Mr Tyer's tablet systems might have been used although they would have cost a lot more than using Train Staff & Ticket working so I think that highly unlikely.    It is also debatable if there would have been a 'signalbox' although with four signals and several point ends the levers might well have been grouped into a structure of some sort.  Even then the connection to the quarries might well  have been operated by a separate ground frame released by means of the Train Staff.

 

Don't forget that the keynote all the way through would have been simplicity and sticking to the legally required minimum in the way of signalling equipment.   For example if your railway doesn't run trains after dark there might not even be a need for the signals to have lamps, even the GWR was quite happy not to have lit signal lamps on some of its minor lines if trains only used the line in daylight hours.   Equally some light railways - the Lynton and Barnstaple is a good example - chose to go way beyond the bare minimum for all sorts of reasons, often in anticipation of much heavier traffic and more frequent trains than they ever saw, or because they saw no reason to stint on their investment while the good Colonel Stevens normally seemed to go to the opposite extreme in order to avoid spending money.

 

I would think the trap point would be marked in some way and the board doing that could well say 'stop' - design whatever you think will suit your railway and its circumstances.  If that connection is worked by a h ground frame then things are even simpler - no board (unless you want to tell the quarry's private engine or horse to go no  (further)

[RLWP]

26 minutes ago, bécasse said:

There is absolutely no need for a signal to control the exit from the quarry (but only because it is a light railway). The idea that a quarry train driver could run out in front of a non-stopping passenger train is absolute nonsense, quite apart from the fact that he would have to be in possession of the token/staff to come out onto the running line, the catch points would derail his train (hopefully away from the running line).

 

Which introduces two new things. The quarry train must stop to collect a token  - how is that made to happen? 

 

And I like the 'hopefully' . Let's hope the derailed train (not just a single wagon) doesn't foul the passenger line

 

Being serious for a moment, I'm always amazed how real world signalling can be both complicated (to make sure it is safe) and simple (like using Annett's keys to unlock everything). Actually, an Annett's key would be a neat solution to the quarry line

 

Richard

[Nearholmer]

The way I read it, the quarry siding starts ‘inside station limits’, so needs no signalling, and the CP gives adequate trapping.

 

there are two ‘sections’ one to the left, one to the right, so we have to decide how to control entry to each. Could be as simple as the token, but why not provide two ‘section signals’, one at each end of the complex ...... no need to provide one per road entering the section, because the token only gets given to one driver.

 

We also need to control entry to the complex from each section. Could be a ‘stop until called forward’ board, or a ‘home’ signal, and if the latter, I don’t think it needs route indication for a case like this - the lay of the points will do.

 

All the points need FPLs, probably of the ‘economical’ kind, and loads of fancy rodding is expensive, so we will just put the levers adjacent to each point.

 

Add a telephone circuit (no block telegraph necessary for a LR), and I think I can convince HM Inspecting Officer that it is fit for purpose, given the low speeds and infrequent service.

[RLWP]

34 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I think I can convince HM Inspecting Officer that it is fit for purpose, given the low speeds and infrequent service.

 

Take him to the pub first

[RLWP]

37 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

The way I read it, the quarry siding starts ‘inside station limits’, so needs no signalling, and the CP gives adequate trapping.

 

Out of interest, where would 'station limits' begin on the 'L&Y' end? Presumably far enough up the line for the whole of the quarry train to be inside while waiting for the quarry road to clear? Or would you hold the quarry train outside station limits until it's road is clear?

 

Richard

[RailWest]

>>>Which introduces two new things. The quarry train must stop to collect a token  - how is that made to happen?

 

Err.....hopefully the quarry train engine is fitted with a brake :-)

 

I agree wholeheartedly with both the posts from The Stationmaster - very much my way of thinking. Bemused to see how much mention the L&BR had got already :-)

 

[ Note to Admin; Individual posts within a thread appear not to have a number, so how do we refer to them please ??? ]

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

The way I read it, the quarry siding starts ‘inside station limits’, so needs no signalling, and the CP gives adequate trapping.

 

there are two ‘sections’ one to the left, one to the right, so we have to decide how to control entry to each. Could be as simple as the token, but why not provide two ‘section signals’, one at each end of the complex ...... no need to provide one per road entering the section, because the token only gets given to one driver.

 

We also need to control entry to the complex from each section. Could be a ‘stop until called forward’ board, or a ‘home’ signal, and if the latter, I don’t think it needs route indication for a case like this - the lay of the points will do.

 

All the points need FPLs, probably of the ‘economical’ kind, and loads of fancy rodding is expensive, so we will just put the levers adjacent to each point.

 

Add a telephone circuit (no block telegraph necessary for a LR), and I think I can convince HM Inspecting Officer that it is fit for purpose, given the low speeds and infrequent service.

Another relatively simple way of doing the job.  iIn reality a Home Signal (in each direction) and no other fixed signals would be the simplest answer and I don't doubt for one minute that starting Signals at the platform ends would be equally acceptable.

39 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

Take him to the pub first

All the Inspecting Officers I have known over the years very definitely wouldn't fall for that one, in fact the very suggestion would no doubt get them looking even more closely.

 

The starting point for signalling any railway in any category in the past was inevitably to start with what was legally required and work from there - to an even more expensive result as demanded by traffic requirements or perhaps to something simpler where the situation could be explained to the Inspecting Officer and his agreement secured.  In this particular case the OP is talking about the signalling of a light railway and therefore immediately subject to considerable relaxation of  numerous Requirements and he has also set a very clear guiding date for us to think about.  The need is not therefore to signal it to heritage railway methods of the past couple of decades (many of which are vastly oversignalled in relation to the Light Railway Orders under which they were authorised to operate) but to consider it in the context of the time in which this layout will be set.

 

As an Inspecting Officer said to me at one preservation site over 30 years ago 'you realise of course you could have done all this with three ground frames and no fixed signals at all'.  A comment with which I wholeheartedly agreed but had to point out, as he expected I would, that there were 'museum' and other factors which also had to be taken into account hence a 30+ lever 'ground frame' in a former signalbox structure complete with numerous signals and track circuits.   Even in more recent years when advising private railways (as 'a Competent Person' within the meaning of the relevant Regulations) I usually tell them, for various reasons to go for the simplest way of doing the job and on one line I reduced two signal boxes to ground frames for that very reason;  the buldings are still there, the signals are still there but they are now ground frames thus saving two staff positions and simplifying operations.

Edited February 24, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Correct typo

[The Stationmaster]

15 minutes ago, RLWP said:

 

Out of interest, where would 'station limits' begin on the 'L&Y' end? Presumably far enough up the line for the whole of the quarry train to be inside while waiting for the quarry road to clear? Or would you hold the quarry train outside station limits until it's road is clear?

 

Richard

We're talking about a light railway and some sort of equivalent to Station Limits, if required, could be established by written definition.  

 

However I can't really understand why they should be required in the first place - if 'the quarry train' (assuming there is such a separate train) is in the Train Staff section on arrival prior to entering the siding then it is in the section and that is the end of it - why should it need Station Limits, they are irrelevant in that case   If traffic for or from the quarry line is shunted off or onto a train standing at the platform or in the loop siding then it is a shunting move outside the Home Signal covered by some sot of Instruction in the line's Train Staff Regulations just as it would be covered by the Regulations on any normal railway - again Station Limits are largely irrelevant as the shunt is by definition being made outside the (protection of) the Home Signal.

 

Let's get back to the basics - we are talking about a light railway in 1900 working in a no doubt very straightforward and simple manner.

 

Note of explanation - Station Limits is a piece of operating terminology to define a certain portion of a running line and it will lie on any line between the rearmost Home Signal applicable to that line and the most Advanced Starting Signal (aka the Section Signal) to that line at that signal box.  The term is used  separately identify the operational status of a section of line from a Block Section, which lies between two successive signalboxes extending from the Section Signal of one signal box to the rearmost Home Signal of the next signal box.

 

The difference between the two is that various sorts of movements are generally permitted within Station Limits, e.g. propelling, which are not permitted to done through a block section (although propelling during shunting can take place within a block section solely fpr such distance as might be necessary to, say, shunt at an intermediate siding or a siding where a movement would have to pass beyond Station Limits in order to shunt it.  

[RLWP]

24 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

As an Inspecting Officer said to me at one preservation site over 30 years ago 'you realise of course you could have done all this with three ground frames and no fixed signals at all'

 

In 1878, the L&NWR worked the whole of Kenilworth station with a single seven lever ground frame. It was similar to this arrangement in that Lockharts Sidings (to the brickworks) was included in the scheme

 

No signal cabin of course - the L&NWR didn't spend money if they didn't have to

 

Richard

[Ruston]

Would this cover it?

The quarry line crosses over the 'main' line by bridge and the system on that high level line is operated as a completely unsignalled industrial railway - no passenger trains run up here, except workman's trains, which are treated as goods trains.

 

There will be a sign at the top of the incline to remind crews to pin down brakes before descending. A stop sign will be placed before the catch point, which prevents the train running onto the main line until the signalman sets the road, which he only does once he has set his home signal to danger, the loop starter signal to danger and the driver of the quarry train has the staff in his possession. Having the staff permits him to pass the board. The catch point is also there to stop any breakaway wagons from trains ascending the bank running onto the 'main' line.

 

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

Incidentally tokens - as we understand them referring to a particular and distinct type of single line signalling method - hadn't been invented by the time of your layout.  Most likely Train Staff would have been used, probably with 'tickets' depending on the frequency of trains although exceptionally (and I think unusually) one of Mr Tyer's tablet systems might have been used although they would have cost a lot more than using Train Staff & Ticket working so I think that highly unlikely.    It is also debatable if there would have been a 'signalbox' although with four signals and several point ends the levers might well have been grouped into a structure of some sort.  Even then the connection to the quarries might well  have been operated by a separate ground frame released by means of the Train Staff.

This something that I don't properly understand for the working of more than one train going in a particular direction. I understand the basics of how it works with tokens and their machines, and how it's all interconnected electrically but how does this work with a staff and ticket?

 

[imt]

 

35 minutes ago, Ruston said:

This something that I don't properly understand for the working of more than one train going in a particular direction. I understand the basics of how it works with tokens and their machines, and how it's all interconnected electrically but how does this work with a staff and ticket?

 

 

AS simple answer (which may be enough for you) can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Token_(railway_signalling)

[Junctionmad]

46 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Would this cover it?

The quarry line crosses over the 'main' line by bridge and the system on that high level line is operated as a completely unsignalled industrial railway - no passenger trains run up here, except workman's trains, which are treated as goods trains.

 

There will be a sign at the top of the incline to remind crews to pin down brakes before descending. A stop sign will be placed before the catch point, which prevents the train running onto the main line until the signalman sets the road, which he only does once he has set his home signal to danger, the loop starter signal to danger and the driver of the quarry train has the staff in his possession. Having the staff permits him to pass the board. The catch point is also there to stop any breakaway wagons from trains ascending the bank running onto the 'main' line.

 

This something that I don't properly understand for the working of more than one train going in a particular direction. I understand the basics of how it works with tokens and their machines, and how it's all interconnected electrically but how does this work with a staff and ticket?

 

In essence , it was a bit of a “ conceit “, the staff was shown to the first train and that train issued with a ticket, ie written permission to proceed, the actual staff being carried by the subsequent train. The whole idea was to remove the issue with a staff only system , that required balanced out and back working ( ie to return the staff ) , this pre-dated the electrically connect staff system , I think the Armagh accident was the death knell of staff and ticket 

 

Edited February 24, 2019 by Junctionmad

[The Stationmaster]

31 minutes ago, Ruston said:

Would this cover it?

The quarry line crosses over the 'main' line by bridge and the system on that high level line is operated as a completely unsignalled industrial railway - no passenger trains run up here, except workman's trains, which are treated as goods trains.

 

There will be a sign at the top of the incline to remind crews to pin down brakes before descending. A stop sign will be placed before the catch point, which prevents the train running onto the main line until the signalman sets the road, which he only does once he has set his home signal to danger, the loop starter signal to danger and the driver of the quarry train has the staff in his possession. Having the staff permits him to pass the board. The catch point is also there to stop any breakaway wagons from trains ascending the bank running onto the 'main' line.

 

This something that I don't properly understand for the working of more than one train going in a particular direction. I understand the basics of how it works with tokens and their machines, and how it's all interconnected electrically but how does this work with a staff and ticket?

 

The Home Signals need to be moved right up to the point toes or thereabouts (the bridge might affect that at one end).

 

The Train Staff is really no more than a bit of wood usually incorporating a key at one end - it would be given to the Driver as his authority to enter the single line and reassure him that no other train will be in that single line section.  The disadvantage is that if a train goes from A to B the staff is now at B so either the next train has to go from B to A or  somebody has to walk or cycle back to A with the staff to make it available for a second train from A to B.  So to add flexibility the Train Staff & Ticket system was developed - this uses either paper or metal 'tickets' which are kept in a locked box at each end of the section. That box can only be opened by a key incorporated in the Train Staff (and the Train Staff can only be taken out of the lock once the box has been closed and relocked_.

 

Now the system works like this - before any train can enter the section the Driver must either be given the Train Staff (as before) or he must be shown the Train Staff and given a ticket.  So now you can run successive trains in the same direction - the Driver of the first is shown the Train Staff but carries a ticket, this can be done for a whole succession of trains but the last train in that direction carries the Train Staff (which enables the next train to run in the opposite direction).  If metal tickets are used the normal procedure was to put then back into the box at the destination end through a slot in the top of the box:  paper tickets might well be written out individually for each train and be retained at the destination station.  Communication between the two ends of the section would be by telephone but in later years ordinary double line block instruments could be used.

 

The system is cheap and very effective but it does rely on the discipline of the Driver being shown the Train Staff when he is given the ticket.  we had it introduced when a line on my then patch was singled in 1973 and we had no problems with it at all and it was introduced on a number of freight branches in the 1990s - yes, it has been that modern in its use.  In effect the Electric Train Staff, Electric Train Tablet and electric Train Token system are really no more than a mechanisation of this system with the addition of an electrical link between the two Train Staff stations which ensures the man ta one end has to aiuthiorise wuithdrawal of a tablet etc at the other end

Oddly the truly serious head-on collisions on British single lines have occurred where the far more sophisticated Electric Tablet system was in operation.

[RLWP]

I'd say, compared to the gradient to get the quarry line over the other line, signalling is going to be a small problem. Have you worked out the gradient?