86101, 86401 and 87002 heading to Europe? Nope!

[adb968008]

Just to add.. heres the standard path for 1Z86 in the timetable..

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10596/2020-02-08/detailed

 

you’ll see its clearly marked 

 

Quote

Starts as Electric locomotive, trailing load 455 tonnes, changes en route

Starts planned at 100mph max

It has been this way since at least 2010, SO STP path in the timetable... the end destination may change, but as far as Crewe at least.. its the same for each trip... regular as clockwork and activated more often than 35028 is on the VSOE... at least 20 times a year.

 

 

Its a requirement its out of Euston before the sleeper is in, and as side of I think 3 occasions, its been 86259 steadfastly...(unless 86259 wasnt available and its been cancelled or started rerouted further out).

 

 

I guess some didnt realise how regular classic 86’s still are as clockwork in London... and as for steam fans, I actually think 86259 has a bit of a cult following amongst them, as whilst the smoky changes week on week at Carnforth.. 86259 guarentees they will be home before 11pm, or at least a chance to jump off at Crewe to catch the last 730pm Pendolino to London.

heres the reverse working..

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/U10598/2020-02-08/detailed

if WCRC dont have a tour that week, both the slot and 86259 have been known to be used on that timing for other operators too.

heres a rare occasion when 86259 failed, 47760 and 47245 substituted... it was a cold day on the stock without AC provided ETH, train lost nearly an hour in each direction, despite being 95mph capable, they lacked acceleration... week later Network Rail said no 86 no train.. so it was no train.

 

 

I should add, owner Les Ross is often on board, proudly selling his book, discussing his loco, even on the above trip with the 47’s he was on board apologising for its non-availability.

 

 

I can see the next run is being loaded for the 29th Feb,... I predict it will be the same timings, same headcode, same loco (86259) and either plat 1 or 16...

Also I can see 21st/28th March and its already done Feb 7th..

 

Thats why i’m surprised WCRC hasnt moved to buy an AC earlier than now, but confidently predict we will see much more from this loco in the future in Euston...

 

and probably Paddington and Kings Cross too.

who knows if your lucky you might even get a shot like this..

 

but i’m hoping 86101 and 87002 return looking like this...

 

 

 

who would think in 2020 we would have 5 AC preserved locos on the mainline...,

 

 

and I dont think were finished yet...
 

 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by adb968008

[newbryford]

If I was on a railtour, I'd be happier with an 86 up front, in preference to a Duff.

[298]

14 hours ago, RP82 said:

Livery wise not particularly my cup of tea.

But at least we will hopefully have another working example of premier West Coast traction to enjoy.

 

How long until resilient wheels are banned on the mainline? 

 

86401 won't be anymore "Preserved" than it's ultimate status as a capital asset as has been for the last few years, and may just end up as a carriage heater at Carnforth. Do they still have vacuum only stock or is everything dual braked, as this equipment could be reinstated on 401, which is it's advantage over another class.

 

As Freightliner have found out with their 86 fleet approaching 10 million miles they are on their last legs and need unobtainable parts remanufacturing from scratch, which isn't as much a problem over in Bulgaria as it is here. Although it seems logical for WCRC to  take on their own 86 hindsight may show they should have gone for a couple of 90s as per LSL....

 

[woodenhead]

5 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

How long until resilient wheels are banned on the mainline? 

 

86401 won't be anymore "Preserved" than it's ultimate status as a capital asset as has been for the last few years, and may just end up as a carriage heater at Carnforth. Do they still have vacuum only stock or is everything dual braked, as this equipment could be reinstated on 401, which is it's advantage over another class.

 

As Freightliner have found out with their 86 fleet approaching 10 million miles they are on their last legs and need unobtainable parts remanufacturing from scratch, which isn't as much a problem over in Bulgaria as it is here. Although it seems logical for WCRC to  take on their own 86 hindsight may show they should have gone for a couple of 90s as per LSL....

 

Does it still need resilient wheels?

 

I thought they added those to make the 86/3 but as an 86/4 it also has the Flexicoil bouncy springy things making it the same as an 86/2 no?

[brushman47544]

Unfortunately London terminus starts/finishes for rail tours have been a problem for many years, not just for the timing of the actual tours but also the logistics and pathing of the ecs. I can understand that during the week but at weekends there really should be ways of pathing railtours on a four track railway, even with locos at lower that 100mph. Combined with the ridiculously early start and finish times of some tours, the London area will soon become a no go area for railtours. There have been occasions when I’ve been back in UK and thought about doing a tour, but looked at the same old motive power and early starts and thought no thanks. Only a seriously rare piece of track would tempt me now.

[adb968008]

32 minutes ago, 298 said:

Although it seems logical for WCRC to  take on their own 86 hindsight may show they should have gone for a couple of 90s as per LSL....

 

Is there a supply of class 90’s to buy ?

 

90050 is probably the only one that might come on the market and I doubt that will attract any buyers beyond scrappies.

90032 has been “stored” for 16 years this month.

 

LSL were lucky to get 90001/2, but electrically and mechanically aren't they slightly different to the rest ?

but I do agree the preserved tag on anything at West Coast, Steam, Diesel or Electric is used liberally... they are all revenue generators of a commercial entity, its just not using public sector money.

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by adb968008

[298]

56 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Does it still need resilient wheels?

 

I thought they added those to make the 86/3 but as an 86/4 it also has the Flexicoil bouncy springy things making it the same as an 86/2 no?

 

Yes, you're right- it's the motors that's the difference now and multiple working gear prior to TDM being fitted.

[Northmoor]

33 minutes ago, brushman47544 said:

Unfortunately London terminus starts/finishes for rail tours have been a problem for many years, not just for the timing of the actual tours but also the logistics and pathing of the ecs. I can understand that during the week but at weekends there really should be ways of pathing railtours on a four track railway, even with locos at lower that 100mph. Combined with the ridiculously early start and finish times of some tours, the London area will soon become a no go area for railtours. There have been occasions when I’ve been back in UK and thought about doing a tour, but looked at the same old motive power and early starts and thought no thanks. Only a seriously rare piece of track would tempt me now.

I take your point but something like 50% of the UK population lives within 90 minutes of the centre of London.  The standard special slots off Kings Cross and Euston are only at the times many arrive into London on their regular commute to work anyway (the number of people arriving in Waterloo at 0730 has to be seen to be believed).  So while it may be difficult if you live too far out to get into London in time, it's not for a lot of people and it remains a huge market.

The problem for many special train operators, especially steam, is that the lucrative customer base is around London but the routes convenient for regular steam operation are usually at least two hours away, so long days are kind of enforced upon them.

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, 298 said:

 

How long until resilient wheels are banned on the mainline? 

 

86401 won't be anymore "Preserved" than it's ultimate status as a capital asset as has been for the last few years, and may just end up as a carriage heater at Carnforth. Do they still have vacuum only stock or is everything dual braked, as this equipment could be reinstated on 401, which is it's advantage over another class.

 

 

 

 

WCRC have quite a varied fleet. I don't think they have any VB only stock in use.

 

They have some AB/EH only Mk2s, as well as "full fat" dual heat/dual brake sets - mostly of Mk1s. These are used in air/EH behind the 86 (or 47s) and then vac/steam heat with the water boiler up front.

In many cases with S&C/WCML tours that don't originate with the 86, the diesel is retained at the rear for ETS and recovery and/or run-round purposes, as is the case with many trips that reverse at Carlisle via the Upperby curve.

[adb968008]

There are plenty of paths from London..

 

Victoria has two spare paths from Platform 2 in rushhour ! (0730/0830), and they include Clapham junction, as well as 1230 and a 1630-1645 path.

Waterloo platform 19  too has Tuesdays only paths reserved, for Windsor (and hook into those same Victoria paths at Clapham)... indeed Plat 17 (towards Croydon) at Clapham only has a few trains per hour and is often used as layover for freight.

 

It has been occasionally that those am paths were both used same day, and as one is via Kensington, the other via Clapham its not been unknown for both to meet up again by Feltham.

As mentioned Euston has a 100mph path at 710, Kings Cross plat 1 also has two 75mph paths at around 715/815am, though I suspect they will be lost in this summers rebuild. Paddington paths exist too, usually either side of the sleeper.

 

Steam will be pushed increasingly into set routes, Surrey hills being a good example, with 2 daily paths at 1230 and around 1630-1645/1730-1745.

 

Also navigating South London is easy enough, routes via Tooting (service every 30 mins), Sutton (every 20 mins), Brentford (4 track)  are possible.

 

But Londons issue is lack of a forward London base with London crews, WCRC has largely retrenched from London, the days of 4464, 70013, 34067, 44932, 45305 + visitors all living at Southall are gone, 60163 no longer lives at HG.

 

LSL has yet to fill the void &  your lucky if anything more than 61306 is present now (but its crew is Local to London), plus occasional visitors... LSL has no place to store stock, DBS brings its stock ECS from Eastleigh each time.

 

Southall might be a good base, but just getting slow speed paths across the GWML has been very problematic.. in just 10 minutes crossing all 4 lines from Southall to Hanwell at 6am by a slow speed move would see 7 trains pass Southall at high speed.  This means it has seen some tours leave Southall the night before and stable somewhere around London ready for next morning.

 

Perhaps best chance would be if Colas ever left Effingham Junction...that would give ample covered storage and a 20 mile journey on routes with lots of paths into South London.

There can be a lot of steam from South London (speeds are much slower on these lines), but theres no where to easily long term store, maintain and crew it, with easy short distance ECS paths to the capitals terminals, hence WCRCs easy fall back to 100mph runs with the 86 upto Carnforth.
 

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by adb968008

[Zomboid]

If the carriages are up to it, then the 87, 89 & 90s would fit into 110mph (and 125 for the 89) paths, so getting them out of London and back in without getting in the way of everything else should be workable.

 

What happened with the A1 groups plan to get some mk3s? Presumably they'd be ideal for such a duty. A nice blast at at least 110mph with the electric loco to York & back (for the sake of argument), and a nice chuff around Yorkshire (likewise) with the kettle.

[Northmoor]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Steam will be pushed increasingly into set routes, Surrey hills being a good example, with 2 daily paths at 1230 and around 1630-1645/1730-1745.

 

Also navigating South London is easy enough, routes via Tooting (service every 30 mins), Sutton (every 20 mins), Brentford (4 track)  are possible.

 

But Londons issue is lack of a forward London base with London crews,

There can be a lot of steam from South London (speeds are much slower on these lines), but theres no where to easily long term store, maintain and crew it, with easy short distance ECS paths to the capitals terminals, hence WCRCs easy fall back to 100mph runs with the 86 upto Carnforth.
 

Selectively quoting you above........ You are quite right that the Surrey Hills circuit is used so repeatedly, but getting a new slot around the Southern suburban area wouldn't be easy.

 

The regular Main Line Steam correspondent for heritage Railway mag is always forecasting the imminent end of main line steam, that TOCs and Network Rail are all against it etc., but that having all trains able to operate at 90mph is the solution (as a recorder of traction performance, of course speeds are what interest him).  There are at least three problems with his view:

(1) On routes like the WCML and ECML, 90mph isn't fast enough;

(2) In inner suburban areas it is the inability to keep up with EMUs that is the problem.  He gets enthusiastic that a Load 11 steam special has accelerated to 60mph in four miles; the problem is that modern EMUs can easily accelerate from 0-75 and stop again in that distance;

(3) If steam only attracts people when it can go quickly, why have the repeat itineraries of the The Jacobite - which barely exceeds 40mph - or the Stratford-on-Avon shuttles been so repeatedly successful?  Perhaps because most non-enthusiast passengers want to travel somewhere interesting, not time trains out of the window and at more than about 50mph the track noise means you probably can't hear the locomotive anyway, only track noise.  

[royaloak]

A steam hauled train only needs to be able to keep up with the stoppers if it is routes on the slow/ relief lines, if it can quickly get to (and maintain) 60-75mph it should be able to keep out of everything elses way as they start and stop in  front of and behind it (depending on calling patterns of course), the same as freights are pathed.

 

A steamer isnt going to be able to compete on the fast/ main lines.

Edited February 15, 2020 by royaloak

[royaloak]

Steam hauled trains on the main routes are a pain in the arris simply because of the number of and the speed of current services they have to vie with, I can see ABDs point about excursions being electrically hauled out of the capital to a convenient location before hooking the steamer on for a nice meander around the countryside, but even then only being able to do 100mph will still be a limiting factor.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, Northmoor said:

Selectively quoting you above........ You are quite right that the Surrey Hills circuit is used so repeatedly, but getting a new slot around the Southern suburban area wouldn't be easy.

 

It actually isnt hard..

how..

Out from Victoria, it drops down past Stewarts Lane, Longhedge and upto Clapham..after 3-5 minutes your clear of all the capital scrum.

This is a the defacto route for steam, where precious little goes.

 

Ive many times watched something leave platform 2, from a Sutton local on platform 9, jumped on the local and caught the steam again at Clapham, as steam allows 20 mins for this trundle.

 

However, forget Victoria... start at Kensington Olympia, or at Clapham Junction itself.

 

At Clapham jn platform 17 is your oyster... only the infrequent Milton Keynes and freights use it.

Then after letting the Epsom /Epsom Downs out from 15, steam can trundle behind, indeed if following the Epsom semi-fast it could get a fair wind up to Streatham North & South jns..from here service is every 15-20 mins towards Sutton, Epsom & Horsham, or every 30 minutes via Tooting...indeed this is why Tolworth stone trains route this way... services upto Streatham rarely get above 40mph at any part between Clapham and Streatham on the slow lines.

 

Of course this isnt a sexy route.. People like Victoria (they say it offers good connections, but lets face it, if Clapham jn is no good for connections, no where is, the TOC likes to offer the LSWR mainline, even if it takes 90 minutes to reach it.  Mitcham to Sutton offers a fantastic climb, and onwards to Horsham is a pretty and leafy green country route, all the way to the coast, indeed Arundel is very nice, and Cheam is a popular station for ticket sales & boarding. With a triangle at Littlehampton its an easy route back, or you could carry on an do the LSWR main on return, and route via Hounslow as today... instead of the marathon slog to Weymouth, and 70 plus mile ecs / le run to Yeovil to turn the loco, it also offers a bit more time at the destination, operationally no need for a shunt loco on the rear, and less time in ECS moves at Victoria.

 

its a viable route south from the capital. It avoids Victoria, East Croydon & Redhill, its  just ignored.

 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by adb968008

[298]

I'm not too offended...except by my own photoshop efforts....

 

 

 

[TravisM]

Love to see 86401 back in NSE livery.  I believe it was the only one in the entire class to get painted that way.

[Northmoor]

1 hour ago, jools1959 said:

Love to see 86401 back in NSE livery.  I believe it was the only one in the entire class to get painted that way.

Correct, which was why we painted it that way for the Crewe Open Weekend all those years ago (and gave it its orginal "Northampton Town" name back).

 

I actually think WCRC maroon suits the 86.  The bank of grilles breaks it up which the slab sides of the 47s don't.

[brushman47544]

8 hours ago, Northmoor said:

I actually think WCRC maroon suits the 86.  The bank of grilles breaks it up which the slab sides of the 47s don't.

I agree, but it needs the white cab surrounds. If they are maroon too as per the 37s and 47/57s the effect will be just as dull.

[Pete the Elaner]

11 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Love to see 86401 back in NSE livery.  I believe it was the only one in the entire class to get painted that way.

It was.

87012 was painted in revised NSE with an appropriate slogan when London was bidding for the 2012 Olympics.

[298]

11 hours ago, jools1959 said:

Love to see 86401 back in NSE livery.  I believe it was the only one in the entire class to get painted that way.

 

Only one...?

 

 

[surfsup]

2 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

It was.

87012 was painted in revised NSE with an appropriate slogan when London was bidding for the 2012 Olympics.

 

And somewhat ironically, still carries it's Network SouthEast livery somewhere very southeast of London in Bulgaria. Possibly the furtherest travelled Network SouthEast liveried stock? 

[Southof1E top tmd]

phot of the Bulgarian "seven" here. taken at Pirdop, Bulgaria on Oct 5th 2011 so more weathered now..

 

nr

[Pete the Elaner]

21 hours ago, 298 said:

 

Only one...?

 

 

Did you photoshop that yourself or did you find it somewhere?

 

The pan is at the wrong end so the side grilles should be visible too.

The number on the front loco can just about to be made out as 86401, so where are the MU jumper blanking plates & why is it on 87 bogies?

[rodent279]

On 15/02/2020 at 08:39, woodenhead said:

Does it still need resilient wheels?

 

I thought they added those to make the 86/3 but as an 86/4 it also has the Flexicoil bouncy springy things making it the same as an 86/2 no?

As built, all class 86's were fitted with solid wheels. The forces on the track from the unsprung weight of several tons of angry wheel and traction motor, bouncing up and down at 100mph, knocked 7 bells out of the WCML track, and "wet spots" with a 20mph slack were a common feature.

60 AL6's were rebuilt with resilient wheels and flexicoil suspension in the early 1970's, later becoming class 86/2. The rest became class 86/0.

In the late 70's, the class 86/0's were derated to 80mph and (theoretically) restricted to freight use. A pressing need for 100mph locos saw 20 class 86/0's fitted with resilient wheels, becoming 86/3's. Later in the 1980's, all class 86/3's & 86/0's had flexicoil suspension added, becoming class 86/4.

Freightliner's fleet of 86/6's are essentially 86/4's but with solid wheels fitted. If allowed to run at 100mph, the same problem of damage to the track will occur, as the flexicoil springs do not change the unsprung weight of the wheelset and traction motors.

 

Edit: the difference between an 86/4 and an 86/2, apart from mu equipment, is that 86/4's (and their previous incarnations as 86/0 & 86/3) have less powerful traction motors than 86/2's. As far as I'm aware, they retain these traction motors as class 86/6.

Edited March 1, 2020 by rodent279