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Just really staring out with modeling. I have noticed and heard people talking about different A4 tenders, besides the corridor/non-corridor. I'm slowly working on gathering up the six A4's in preservation (by not buying all of the Great Gathering/Goodbye locos). So far I have R3676 LNER Mallard, R3197 Dominion of Canada, and R2535 Woodcock. I also have R3771 LNER Bittern and R3737 BR Blue Mallard on pre-order. 

 

I'm planning on renumbering Woodcock to Union of South Africa, and BR Blue Mallard to Sir Nigel Gresley. I still need to buy one for Dwight. I also plan on buying LNER Kingfisher, re-numbering it, and adding the silver trim to make Golden Shuttle.

 

My question is, how can you tell the difference between the right era tenders? Would these models work for what I'm trying to do?

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Some more information will be required for someone knowledgeable to give a useful answer. Do you want these six survivors in a specific condition; for example 'as they all were on 1st January 2019' or alternatively 'any old how' so they can be as seen at any point in time in their working or preservation lives. Both the locos' exterior appearance and the tenders allocated changed during their working life, and for all I know the same may have applied in preservation.

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There is a lot of information on the Sir Nigel Gresley locomotive website under 'education' and then 'chime/archive' section. It is under the title 'A Tangle of Tenders'. There are four sections tracking the different tenders attached to locomotives through their lives. 

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As Sweedy says - two links to get you started - I was particularly interested in Commonwealth of Australia which is recorded as keeping the same corridor tender for the whole of its life.  So why did Bachmann produce a boxed set with it attached to a non-corridor tender?

 

http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/chime-archive/tenders/tenders3.shtml

http://www.doncasterworksrecords.org.uk/Part-30.html


You should also see that some of the A4 tenders came from earlier A3s and have detail differences.


Cheers Ray

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9 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

Some more information will be required for someone knowledgeable to give a useful answer. Do you want these six survivors in a specific condition; for example 'as they all were on 1st January 2019' or alternatively 'any old how' so they can be as seen at any point in time in their working or preservation lives. Both the locos' exterior appearance and the tenders allocated changed during their working life, and for all I know the same may have applied in preservation.

Yes, sorry. I want the six A4's in preservations to look like how they did in the Great Gathering.

 

For Golden Shuttle, I would like it too look like it did in June 1938. LNER Blue with silver letters, and red backing for the name plates?

 

EDIT: Added colored photo for reference for Golden Shuttle

 

image.png.c6030098775fed5a9acb9d219ae94b29.png

 

61426208_GoldenShuttle.JPG.def1fe565f57a73e698aa4e0b2c89497.JPG

Edited by Ribird
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Three types of tender:

Corridor non streamlined, ex a few A3's.

Corridor streamlined, for the new build A4's.

Non corridor.

 

There are also detail differences with fairings and trim along the tender tank bases.

 

look here for a specific loco on a specific date:  http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/chime-archive/tenders/tenders.shtml

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3 hours ago, JeffP said:

Three types of tender:

Corridor non streamlined, ex a few A3's.

Corridor streamlined, for the new build A4's.

Non corridor.

 

There are also detail differences with fairings and trim along the tender tank bases.

 

look here for a specific loco on a specific date:  http://www.sirnigelgresley.org.uk/chime-archive/tenders/tenders.shtml

So looking at this link, that makes Golden Shuttle have a Steamlined corridor tender N°5651.

 

Where would I find this tender in model form?

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Alright. Golden Shuttle just needs a streamlined corridor tender, which can be taken off of many Hornby LNER Blue models. In the end, if I would buy a Hornby LNER Kingfisher, renumber and add the sliver bottom trim, I will be golden.

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11 hours ago, Ribird said:

Alright. Golden Shuttle just needs a streamlined corridor tender, which can be taken off of many Hornby LNER Blue models. In the end, if I would buy a Hornby LNER Kingfisher, renumber and add the sliver bottom trim, I will be golden.

Whichever model you start with, make sure it’s a single chimney. IE not Mallard.

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9 hours ago, garethashenden said:

Whichever model you start with, make sure it’s a single chimney. IE not Mallard.

Which is what Kingfisher is, a single chimney, with a corridor tender. Herring Gull is also a single chimney, but doesn't have a corridor tender.

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On 25/02/2019 at 13:42, Ribird said:

Where would I find this tender in model form?

R3095 Commonwealth of Australia would be a good donor for 4496; only a change of name and number would be required as well as removing the crest on the cab and putting a builder's plate on instead.

Kingfisher has a non streamlined corridor tender (identified by the beading at the top of the tank) so this would be wrong for 4496.

As far as i'm aware, Hornby haven't done any other garter blue A4s with streamlined corridor tenders.

Interestingly, Hornby have done a model of Golden Shuttle but this was in the railroad range and so it tows a non streamlined tender, making it inaccurate.

Hope this helps,

Jamie

 

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8 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

R3095 Commonwealth of Australia would be a good donor for 4496; only a change of name and number would be required as well as removing the crest on the cab and putting a builder's plate on instead.

Kingfisher has a non streamlined corridor tender (identified by the beading at the top of the tank) so this would be wrong for 4496.

As far as i'm aware, Hornby haven't done any other garter blue A4s with streamlined corridor tenders.

Interestingly, Hornby have done a model of Golden Shuttle but this was in the railroad range and so it tows a non streamlined tender, making it inaccurate.

Hope this helps,

Jamie

 

Could you show me the difference between these two tenders? Would that make the Dominion of Canada loco tender incorrect as well?

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This is a non streamlined corridor with a flat back and beading (the ridge going along the top of the tender side where the blue stops and black starts on the particular tender in the photo)

4464.jpg.5087ee29d2a83474e42d65fcf53307ec.jpg

 

This is the streamlined corridor tender with bowed end and no beading (smooth sided and the one you need for 4496)

4497.jpg.7adbbfa881457ea154e6326a7557130a.jpg

 

Dominion Of Canada towed a non streamlined corridor from new until June 1953 and from August 1958 onwards, making Kingfisher the best donor, or, of course, the great gathering or great goodbye Dominion Of Canada models (although these are quite rare and very expensive). Dominion Of Canada's tender is therefore incorrect for 4496.

 

For the 6 A4s in 2013 condition the best course of action (in my opinion) is as follows:

Mallard - Hornby R2339 with top lamp iron moved down, handrails painted silver wheel tyres painted and speed plaque fitted

Bittern - Hornby R3771 or R2888m renamed and renumbered, double chimney fitted, electric warning flashes added and tender above beading painted black

Union Of South Africa - R2535 renamed and renumbered, springbok plaque, cab crests, electric warning flashes added and tender painted black above beading

Dominion Of Canada - R2888m renamed and renumbered, Canadian bell and whistle, steel lettering, numbering and trim, cab crests, tender painted black above beading

Dwight D. Eisenhower - R2494, R2615 or R3522 renamed and renumbered, early emblem replaced with late crest on tender, double chimney fitted (I can't seem to find a modern A4 with double chimney or late crest and a streamlined non corridor tender but there maybe one that I've missed)

Sir Nigel Gresley - R3737 renamed and renumbered, speed plaque replaced

 

All of these models could be made from the great gathering and great goodbye sets but as I said earlier they are very rare and very expensive.

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25 minutes ago, JamieR4489 said:

This is a non streamlined corridor with a flat back and beading (the ridge going along the top of the tender side where the blue stops and black starts on the particular tender in the photo)

4464.jpg.5087ee29d2a83474e42d65fcf53307ec.jpg

 

This is the streamlined corridor tender with bowed end and no beading (smooth sided and the one you need for 4496)

4497.jpg.7adbbfa881457ea154e6326a7557130a.jpg

 

Dominion Of Canada towed a non streamlined corridor from new until June 1953 and from August 1958 onwards, making Kingfisher the best donor, or, of course, the great gathering or great goodbye Dominion Of Canada models (although these are quite rare and very expensive). Dominion Of Canada's tender is therefore incorrect for 4496.

 

For the 6 A4s in 2013 condition the best course of action (in my opinion) is as follows:

Mallard - Hornby R2339 with top lamp iron moved down, handrails painted silver wheel tyres painted and speed plaque fitted

Bittern - Hornby R3771 or R2888m renamed and renumbered, double chimney fitted, electric warning flashes added and tender above beading painted black

Union Of South Africa - R2535 renamed and renumbered, springbok plaque, cab crests, electric warning flashes added and tender painted black above beading

Dominion Of Canada - R2888m renamed and renumbered, Canadian bell and whistle, steel lettering, numbering and trim, cab crests, tender painted black above beading

Dwight D. Eisenhower - R2494, R2615 or R3522 renamed and renumbered, early emblem replaced with late crest on tender, double chimney fitted (I can't seem to find a modern A4 with double chimney or late crest and a streamlined non corridor tender but there maybe one that I've missed)

Sir Nigel Gresley - R3737 renamed and renumbered, speed plaque replaced

 

All of these models could be made from the great gathering and great goodbye sets but as I said earlier they are very rare and very expensive.

Well I do have Mallard as preserved r3676, Woodcock r2535 (South Africa), Great Gathering Dominion of Canada, (preorder) Bittern r3771, (preorder) BR Blue Mallard r3737 (Sir Nigel Gresley.)

 

And now r3095 for Golden Shuttle. 

 

For Dwight, I’ve found r2896 (Sir Ronald Matthews) and r2721 (Sparrow Hawk)

 

Would all of these be good for their real life counter parts?

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Sparrow Hawk would probably be better for Dwight as it doesn't have the electric warning flashes like Sir Ronald Matthews does. I'm not sure how I missed those two but they are far better than my suggestions. Those all sound like good donors.:good_mini:

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8 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

Sparrow Hawk would probably be better for Dwight as it doesn't have the electric warning flashes like Sir Ronald Matthews does. I'm not sure how I missed those two but they are far better than my suggestions. Those all sound like good donors.:good_mini:

So would the Great Gathering/Goodbye Union of South Africa tender be incorrect since the top of the beading is not painted black? 

 

For modern BR Green Double chimneys; Guillemot, Sparrowhawk, Bittern, Dwight and South Africa, Woodcock, and Golden Plover. Just for you for future, some do have warning flashes. 

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Yes the great gathering/ goodbye UoSA is wrong but black paint will sort that out in no time. The model of Guillemot that Hornby have done (R2494) is single chimney. Luckily I model 1938 so I don’t have to worry about warning flashes or chimneys! For UoSA there is also the commonwealth collection model (R2909) that Hornby made a few years ago although that shows the loco in its BR condition so the name plates would need to be red instead of black and the springbok plaque would need to be fitted as well as warning flashes and the tender top would need to be painted black above the beading. If you want to be really accurate, you’d also need to add the air brake hose on the front of the loco and that also applies for Bittern and Sir Nigel Gresley if you are making them from models of engines not in preserved condition (i.e. R2535 and R3737).

I hope all of this is useful!

Jamie

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2 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Jamie 4489,

I think you have excelled in helping Ribird and anyone else interested in A4's, which must mean any Railway enthusiast.:D

Regards,Del.

That’s what reading the RCTS volumes and various internet sources does to you!

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3 hours ago, JamieR4489 said:

Yes the great gathering/ goodbye UoSA is wrong but black paint will sort that out in no time. The model of Guillemot that Hornby have done (R2494) is single chimney. Luckily I model 1938 so I don’t have to worry about warning flashes or chimneys! For UoSA there is also the commonwealth collection model (R2909) that Hornby made a few years ago although that shows the loco in its BR condition so the name plates would need to be red instead of black and the springbok plaque would need to be fitted as well as warning flashes and the tender top would need to be painted black above the beading. If you want to be really accurate, you’d also need to add the air brake hose on the front of the loco and that also applies for Bittern and Sir Nigel Gresley if you are making them from models of engines not in preserved condition (i.e. R2535 and R3737).

I hope all of this is useful!

Jamie

Thank you! Any good links for repainting handrails and/or re-numbering locos with Fox Transfers?

 

So I wouldn’t need to add air brake hoses since they are in preservered condition, correct?

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23 minutes ago, Ribird said:

Thank you! Any good links for repainting handrails and/or re-numbering locos with Fox Transfers?

 

So I wouldn’t need to add air brake hoses since they are in preservered condition, correct?

You would need to add brake pipes for Union of South Africa and Sir Nigel Gresley as you are making them from models of locos not in preserved condition (R3737 and R2535) but as Bittern will be made from a model of it as it is preserved (R3771) they might be already added although Hornby might be lazy and leave them off. Dwight, Mallard and Dominion Of Canada don’t need the air brake pipes as they don’t run on the mainline so they have retained their original vacuum brakes (mainline stock is air braked rather than vacuum braked so that’s why Bittern, UoSA and Sir Nigel Gresley need air brakes).

 

For renumbering, a fibre glass pencil lightly rubbed across the transfers will remove them or a cotton bud with a bit of T-cut on the end of it rubbed over the transfer will eventually remove them. There are lots of topics on here about renumbering and quite a few videos on YouTube as well.

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33 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Hi Ribird.

That's a nice picture of Golden Shuttle with  the clock tower in the background.

Any info on where/when it was taken?

I have a feeling that picture is taken somewhere around the West Riding. I’ll check later because I know I’ve seen that photo with a caption before.

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1 hour ago, melmerby said:

Hi Ribird.

That's a nice picture of Golden Shuttle with  the clock tower in the background.

Any info on where/when it was taken?

 

Hello

 

That’s Wakefield Westgate. The photo is by H.M.Lane and appears in “LNER Locomotives in Colour 1936 - 1948”

 

Late 1937 according to the caption.

 

Jon

Edited by Jon4470
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2 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hi Ribird.

That's a nice picture of Golden Shuttle with  the clock tower in the background.

Any info on where/when it was taken?

 

Jon 4470 has beaten me to it,but as he says it's Wakefield Westgate .

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