DCC for dummies

[tigerburnie]

1 hour ago, RedgateModels said:

In defence of the Select it was my entry point into the world of DCC and whilst I have since moved on to a Powercab for exhibition use etc the Select still is being used on my son's train set. Kids "get it" really quickly at shows with a couple of locos to control on his layout. Press 1, press Select, drive loco1. Press 2, press Select, drive loco2 ..

 

 

So my initial investment of 40 odd quid from eBay over 10 years ago is still being used and will continue to be used as George progresses

The main thing that puts me off this controller is doesn't allow multi sound function use, now I understand the Elite does, but looking at the price, it seems there might be better units in the market, not writing the Hornby units off, they just might not be what I am specifically looking for.

Edited March 13, 2019 by tigerburnie

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Hornby Select may have its uses for some, but in your case and with sound in mind, it’s best avoided.

 

If going for the PowerCab, bear in mind that the power output is very limited, as its meant to be an entry level, or taster unit, into the world of NCE products.

The lack of full protection is a fact and NCE cover themselves by issuing warnings on their own website.

As such it makes sense to add appropriate additional protection.

 

There are several other DCC system options available.

 

 

Ron

Edited March 13, 2019 by Ron Ron Ron

[Izzy]

On 12/03/2019 at 13:51, tigerburnie said:

Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance2 Starter Package DCC02, what's your thoughts please gents, bearing in mind this is for primarily sound on a fairly small  OO gauge layout. Thanx

 

I’ll be perfectly honest and say that while I have had one of these for about 9 years, have had excellent help and repair service from Gaugemaster, I would find it difficult these days to chose/decide which system to get if I was starting from fresh now, even with the experience of using this particular system. My my view is that nothing is perfect, and there are always drawbacks with one system or another depending on what you want. 

 

The PA is good and simple to use. It’s generally been very reliable when used ‘as is’ straight out of the box. The drawbacks are that - in common with many handset based systems - accessing more that the F0-F12 keys for sound is awkward/clunky. But at least the ‘full’ F0-F28 range is covered, many systems don’t. Then there is the issue that it doesn’t want to play nice with third party circuit breakers, indeed trying to set up separate power districts with a PSX-1 wrecked the command station. GM repaired it very quickly - returned FOC in a week - but not what you really need, and I haven’t dared try again. But... I read that often other systems have similar or other specific issues. At least GM are in the UK and stuff doesn’t have to be sent back to Europe or the USA for repair with all that entails.

 

I now use a Sprog/JMRI for all basic decoder programming, leaving the PA2 for just POM adjustment when running a loco if needed. Splitting the tasks of programming decoders and actually running a layout is I think quite beneficial. It enables you to look at what you want from a DCC system in a different light.

 

Thinking it through as I write this, and being a lone modeller with sound locos on small layouts (where multiple districts aren’t really needed), I do think that maybe I would go with the flexibility of the Prodigy Express wi-fi package system, plus a Sprogll. This would allow phone/tablet use where the throttle apps have easy access to the F-key range when needed.

 

I hope you find something that suits,

 

Izzy

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 12 March 2019 at 13:51, tigerburnie said:

Gaugemaster Prodigy Advance2 Starter Package DCC02, what's your thoughts please gents, bearing in mind this is for primarily sound on a fairly small  OO gauge layout. Thanx

I went with this.
You'll see it's more expensive but then people have suggested buying an extra this and that for the NCE.  However, as always, each to their own.
 

Most people seem to go with the NCE but I'm happy with my choice and wouldn't look at another system for a long time.  The draw to the PA2 for me was the price - £125 all in, which is way below what others were selling it at.

The extra programming track outputs is very helpful.
I haven't needed to read much more than CV1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 29 - all of which read and wrote fine.  However if you want to get into the nitty gritty of motor control and such, it may fall as Art has said.  I have a Sprog to do all that now anyway, which has sort of put the programming track out of business but the option is always still there.

[Hroth]

I've a relatively small layout and use a GM Prodigy Express 2 (DCC01) to control it, its straightforward and I can drive my trains without any problems using it.  I initially started with a Hornby Select, became "annoyed" by its toy train set limitations and moved to a Sprog/Small Laptop/Router/Old tablet running Engine Driver. This works fine, but it can be a fiddle setting it all up for a quick running session.  Hence the PE2, which I got for a reasonable price from ebay.  DCC is used to drive the trains, points and signals are the province of the "signal box" and are purely mechanically operated!

 

I recently obtained a GM Prodigy WiFi adaptor (DCC05) to use with the PE2. An effective bit of kit that allows me to wander about with the old tablet/Engine Driver and control the layout rather than being tethered to one spot with the handset.

 

The Sprog/laptop is still in use as its more effective for Programming Track work than using the PE2 handset.

 

[tigerburnie]

Are there any compatibility concerns mixing manufacturers DCC chips and sound cards? Is it better to, for example, put Hornby DCC chips in Hornby locos, or can you put them in Bachman for example?

[melmerby]

Decoders are all (these days) to NMRA specification and should work in any loco.

I have found some of the cheaper ones are not so tolerant of imperfect mechanisms than the slightly more expensive makes.

This is due to such things as less than ideal Back EMF properties.

Also such things as hysteresis in the speed steps* or different perfomance forward and reverse may be present.

* this shows such as when a certain speed step produces a different actual speed when accelerating than when decelerating.

For basic use these problems may not be of much concern but if you get into computer control they are a definite no-no.

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by melmerby

[tigerburnie]

Thanks, I believe I have decided on the control, now looking at getting current stock of locos DCC fitted, the sound will come later. Due to it snowing for most of the day, no work has started on the new home for this project yet.

[Ron Ron Ron]

39 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Are there any compatibility concerns mixing manufacturers DCC chips and sound cards? Is it better to, for example, put Hornby DCC chips in Hornby locos, or can you put them in Bachman for example?

 

The idea of NMRA DCC standardisation is that the DCC commands should be read and acted upon by any NMRA compliant DCC decoder.

i.e. all decoders should work with any DCC system.

 

Compatibility  between decoders and locos is more to do with the suitability of the particular decoder for the job in hand.

e.g. does the decoder have a sufficient power rating to handle the requirements of the motor in the particular loco it's being installed in?

..... or does the decoder have enough accessory function outputs to match the number of working light functions or other working functions that the loco is specified with.

 

As for Hornby decoders, I wouldn't put them in either Hornby or Bachmann locos. 

I'd put them in the bin.

 

Ron

[melmerby]

9 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

As for Hornby decoders, I wouldn't put them in either Hornby or Bachmann locos. 

I'd put them in the bin.

 

Ron

Personally I wouldn't use anything other than Lenz or Zimo, both of which do a (Near) budget price decoder.

The Hornby R8249 and it's derivitives are the dinosaurs of the decoder range.

Edited March 17, 2019 by melmerby

[Ron Ron Ron]

14 minutes ago, melmerby said:

.........The Hornby R8249 and it's derivitives are the dinosaurs of the decoder range.

 

It's a one legged dinosaur with a wonky eye and bad breath.

[tigerburnie]

Thanks all, trying to cut out any future problems further down the line, if you get my intended pun

[Izzy]

Personally, having tried most decoder makes, I would suggest that just sticking to using Zimo from the off will save a lot of potential hassle you may well encounter otherwise. While not the cheapest initially, the second-to-none motor control available out of the box at the usual default settings, (equalled only by CT), with a wide range of cv adjustments for the odd loco that doesn’t, is worth it alone, never mind the compatibility with stay-alives (if required) and the firmware updateable nature.

 

Izzy

[john new]

So if is Zimo best for the actual chips what is recommended for the socket/wiring loom you need to buy to get older locos that are currently analogue to DCC ready status?

 

[WIMorrison]

just use the wire that is already on the decoder

[john new]

Still slightly confused - my only experience to date of DCC is having to take this badly wired in item out of a 2nd hand Class 25 to make it run properly on DC/analogue.

To get a loco DCC ready (i.e. to fit a decoder later) does it not need something between the loco/motor and the socket into which the plug on the decoder lead goes? Looking at examples of DCC decoders on line suggest some (A) are plug & socket and some (b) just wire in. I had assumed option (A) was for converting DCC ready locos to run as DCC and (B) for going direct to DCC. 

 

What is needed for the intermediate step? Example - my Cl 25 -

Step 1 wire a socket in but with a blanking plug so that it is DCC ready. (what do you buy?)

Step 2 - in due course, when the time is right to actually go DCC, fit a decoder chip.

 

Is step 1 worth going through now to make my older loco's DCC ready?

Edited March 17, 2019 by john new

[ROSSPOP]

41 minutes ago, john new said:

So if is Zimo best for the actual chips what is recommended for the socket/wiring loom you need to buy to get older locos that are currently analogue to DCC ready status?

 

 

No need for any wiring looms.....unless you are super fastidious......

 

Kit built or RTR it`s the same method........

two wires to the pickups

two wires to the motor

two wires to the speaker

 

[john new]

6 minutes ago, ROSSPOP said:

 

No need for any wiring looms.....unless you are super fastidious......

 

Kit built or RTR it`s the same method........

two wires to the pickups

two wires to the motor

two wires to the speaker

 

But that assumes going from analogue direct to DCC.

Is there not a half-way house option to get existing locos ready for a future swap by adding a socket and blanking plug, or does that work out so expensive a route onwards towards future DCC as to be not worth considering?

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by john new

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Izzy said:

Personally, having tried most decoder makes, I would suggest that just sticking to using Zimo from the off will save a lot of potential hassle you may well encounter otherwise. While not the cheapest initially, the second-to-none motor control available out of the box at the usual default settings, (equalled only by CT), with a wide range of cv adjustments for the odd loco that doesn’t, is worth it alone, never mind the compatibility with stay-alives (if required) and the firmware updateable nature.

 

Izzy

Just to throw a spanner in the works, Having tried many different makes, I found the only CT decoder I tried no better than many others at a lower price and definitely inferior to Lenz & Zimo!

 

 

[melmerby]

23 minutes ago, john new said:

But that assumes going from analogue direct to DCC.

Is there not a half-way house option to get existing locos ready for a future swap by adding a socket and blanking plug, or does that work out so expensive a route onwards towards future DCC as to be not worth considering?

 

It costs a few pence to provide a socket, if the loco has room.

If you can etch PCBs then make one for a socket, else use Veroboard (strip board)

I've done it to provide either loco or tender mounted decoders.

You can make sockets out of e.g.

https://www.rapidonline.com/bkl-10120836-1-x-40-pin-header-overall-height-3-0-mm-2-54mm-pitch-3a-gold-plated-50-8121

Edited March 17, 2019 by melmerby
clarity

[Izzy]

36 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Just to throw a spanner in the works, Having tried many different makes, I found the only CT decoder I tried no better than many others at a lower price and definitely inferior to Lenz & Zimo!

 

 

 

59 minutes ago, john new said:

Still slightly confused - my only experience to date of DCC is having to take this badly wired in item out of a 2nd hand Class 25 to make it run properly on DC/analogue.

To get a loco DCC ready (i.e. to fit a decoder later) does it not need something between the loco/motor and the socket into which the plug on the decoder lead goes? Looking at examples of DCC decoders on line suggest some (A) are plug & socket and some (b) just wire in. I had assumed option (A) was for converting DCC ready locos to run as DCC and (B) for going direct to DCC. 

 

What is needed for the intermediate step? Example - my Cl 25 -

Step 1 wire a socket in but with a blanking plug so that it is DCC ready. (what do you buy?)

Step 2 - in due course, when the time is right to actually go DCC, fit a decoder chip.

 

Is step 1 worth going through now to make my older loco's DCC ready?

 

The problem with fitting wiring harnesses is the space they consume, which in many locos may not exist, and that you need to choose between say, a 6-pin or 8-pin type. Yes, it does mean you can double check your wiring is basically okay before plugging in a decoder, but then it also restricts what decoder you can fit.

 

It seems to me an extra step which even if possible has little real advantage. You take the loco apart, fit a wiring harness, add a blanking plug, test, and put it back together. Then, to convert to DCC you have to take the loco apart again, remove the blanking plug, fit the decoder, test again, make any adjustments needed, and put it back together again. I can't really see that it saves much or any time or effort, indeed it probably creates more.

 

 

38 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Just to throw a spanner in the works, Having tried many different makes, I found the only CT decoder I tried no better than many others at a lower price and definitely inferior to Lenz & Zimo!

 

 

 

Yes, strange sometimes the differing experiences people have isn't it? For example I have had so many bad issues with Lenz I wouldn't touch them with the proverbial bargepole now,.... yet others swear by them!  Me, it's at them.............

 

regards

 

Izzy

 

 

[WIMorrison]

I don’t see any advantages to the ‘half way house’ but I can see a few disadvantages, primarily cost as you are adding in a nugatoty step, if you wire the decoder into the loco now and enable DC running then when you do decide to run DCC it is ready instantly - nothing else to do as DCC enabled. You are trying to create a DCC ready stage which is a commercial concept by manufacturers to keep the cost of the loco down and sell into the DC and DCC market (at an additional cost).

 

you have committed to DCC sooner or later so why not simply slowly stick in the decoders as funds permit then once you have enough switch over fully to DCC, saves finding a few hundred pounds in a lump sum later to add decoders to the locos innthe ‘half Way house’

Edited March 17, 2019 by WIMorrison

[john new]

Trouble with the most recent suggestions (dc enabled running with DCC chips in) is they clash with other posters advice that says don’t run DCC chipped  locos in DC mode. The DC enabled route initially seemed to me to offer a way forward for the long term, but then I read the don't do it advice.

 

I’m coming to the conclusion. I’ve just got to try it and see with an entry level system. The most recent RM article helps too as it splits the options available into levels of sophistication. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by john new
Updated information

[WIMorrison]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having DC enabled DCC locos running on DC layouts - NMRA put it into the specification to allow for exactly what you are doing. There are some people who claim to have issues with DC enabled locos on DCC, personally in almost 20 years of DCC I have never seen an issue and no-one who has ever had an 'issue' has been able to prove categorically that the issue was down to enabling DC running (in all cases I have been shown there have been other issues which when rectified have improved the running and reliability) , again it is in the specification to allow DCC locos to be run on DC.

 

An example today was a chap who claimed that Railcom was causing his Digitrax layout to fall over, when I checked his wiring and rectified the errors I found (boosters with incorrect polarity, DCO with trip set too low) Railcom wasn't the issue, this chap had also claimed that you should never enable DC running as it caused issues - wasn't causing issues when the wiring issues were corrected.

 

Go for it, most sensible, cost effective and the only pragmatic approach to your dilemma.

 

[pauliebanger]

There is no problem with running a DCC equipped model on DC power as long as the decoder is set up to do that.

 

However, running DC only models on DCC powered track is defitely something to be avoided.

 

Running with DC enabled decoders on DCC is OK too, but some circumstances can lead to mystery 'run aways'*. The advice here would be if you have DCC power use DCC decoder equipped models, preferably with DC operation disabled.

 

* 'DC' enabled is probably not the problem in itself, but if the decoder receives a poor DCC signal, from whatever cause, it can react to the power as if it is analogue. As the track is at full DCC power, the model may 'take off' rapidly.

 

These are three different situations so make sure you understand the differences and you'll be OK.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Edited March 17, 2019 by pauliebanger