DCC for dummies

[john new]

15 minutes ago, pauliebanger said:

There is no problem with running DCC on DC power as long as the decoder is set up to do that.

 

However, running DC only models on DCC powered track is defitely something to be avoided.

 

Running with DC enabled decoders on DCC is OK too, but some circumstances can lead to mystery 'run aways'. The advice here would be if you have DCC power use DCC decoder equipped models, preferably with DC operation disabled.

 

These are three different situations so make sure you understand the differences.

 

Best regards,

 

Paul

Your number 2 reminds me of a lesson long ago learnt as a smallish boy when elctrickery was an unknown dark art: taking my HD 3-rail (12V DC) loco around to a friend's Trix 3-rail (15V AC) system wasn't the good idea it had seemed. We discovered that not all 3-rail is/was the same.

 

Dad would have known the difference but I don't think I asked.

 

My, then blown up, Duchess of Atholl did eventually get fixed about 30 years later!

Edited March 17, 2019 by john new

[Andymsa]

22 minutes ago, WIMorrison said:

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having DC enabled DCC locos running on DC layouts - NMRA put it into the specification to allow for exactly what you are doing. There are some people who claim to have issues with DC enabled locos on DCC, personally in almost 20 years of DCC I have never seen an issue and no-one who has ever had an 'issue' has been able to prove categorically that the issue was down to enabling DC running (in all cases I have been shown there have been other issues which when rectified have improved the running and reliability) , again it is in the specification to allow DCC locos to be run on DC.

 

An example today was a chap who claimed that Railcom was causing his Digitrax layout to fall over, when I checked his wiring and rectified the errors I found (boosters with incorrect polarity, DCO with trip set too low) Railcom wasn't the issue, this chap had also claimed that you should never enable DC running as it caused issues - wasn't causing issues when the wiring issues were corrected.

 

Go for it, most sensible, cost effective and the only pragmatic approach to your dilemma.

 

 

The only issue I have had when dc is enabled when a short occurs for what ever reason the dc enabled locos start to creep resulting in further issues with running through points. Since disabling the dc feature I have not had any creep of locos when the odd short occurs.

[john new]

I am not interested in sound at the moment. Therefore for modellers like me in the cusp situation the way forward in a staged manner can be:-

 

1) Get a basic DCC controller but it must be able to turn the DC running option function on/off. Needs a basic programming track.

2) Fit chip(s) and set them to DC enabled. (The locos then run fine under DC analogue on DC layouts).

3) BEFORE running them under DCC make sure step (2) is undone. (Avoidance of runaways)

4) To reuse on a DC layout repeat step (2).

 

The layout project I'm about to wire is small enough that the sections can easily set up for either power option. A DPDT switch can be set so that either DCC or DC is enabled and with only one of the controller options plugged into the layout at any one time to minimise errors.

 

Thanks everybody for the various posts in this (and other threads) as they have demystified quite a lot. I've still a lot to learn but can at least now see a route forward that won't involve a massive future, single spend, outlay to make the change over.

 

Does the Hornby Select do steps (2 & 3)?

 

If it does as I posted earlier their Somerset Belle set may provide the very basic entry level start point I need to see how DCC works against DC with the same locos on the same layout when used in alternate modes.

 

PS Other posts do suggest that to work well the Select also needs Hornby's replacement higher output transformer pack not the basic 1A.

Edited March 17, 2019 by john new

[WIMorrison]

what you say makes sense, but you don't need to bother with steps 3 and 4

[Art Dent]

5 hours ago, Izzy said:

Yes, strange sometimes the differing experiences people have isn't it? For example I have had so many bad issues with Lenz I wouldn't touch them with the proverbial bargepole now,.... yet others swear by them!  Me, it's at them.............

 

regards

 

Izzy

 

I have found Lenz decoders to be literally bomb-proof.  They have an in-built thermal cut-out which prevents damage to the doecoder in an overload situation iirc.

 

Also highly recommend Zimo decoders.

 

Art

[Sir TophamHatt]

20 hours ago, john new said:

What is needed for the intermediate step?

Step 1 wire a socket in but with a blanking plug so that it is DCC ready. (what do you buy?)

 

Look on ebay for "DCC Socket" or something similar and you should find some for £1.95 + 99p delivery.

Others buy the little sockets for pennies each and solder wires but the faff/time/effort/electric isn't worth the saving.  FYI, you can buy 5 or 6 sockets and it's still the same postage price.

 

For the wire, I got a lot of mine from Express Models.

Bought about 5-10m of the DCC Decoder wire in each of the colours they did.  Others may say it's cheaper elsewhere but I was ordering other stuff from the site anyway so added the wire.  Means now I have a whole load of small wires suitable for decoder soldering.  I don't think I'll need to buy any more again... ever.

 

I bought a few of the pre-made sockets.  I wish I'd socketed more locos, although the majority wouldn't have had space for one.  All are Zimo (MX600) or Lenz (Silver+ v2) anyway - both around the £20 mark.

 

My Turbostar was hard wired a few years back as it was one of the first I did.

The Voyager was done just a few months ago, so I was wiser then and put sockets in.  This means I can change the decoders easier if I wanted to add sound at a later date.

[tigerburnie]

4 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

  This means I can change the decoders easier if I wanted to add sound at a later date.

Now this has confused me, I thought you had a DCC chip for loco control and then "piggy backed" a sound chip and speaker, why would you want to change the original decoder?

[Art Dent]

50 minutes ago, tigerburnie said:

Now this has confused me, I thought you had a DCC chip for loco control and then "piggy backed" a sound chip and speaker, why would you want to change the original decoder?

 

Hi Tiger,

 

Bit in bold is wrong.

 

Loco decoders are either non-sound (e.g. Zimo MX621 at approx £25) or sound decoders (e.g. Zimo MX645R at around £99 plus speaker).

 

You don't fit an additional speaker for sound, you simply swap the decoder over (if a non-sound decoder was already fitted).

 

Retailers - such as Coastal DCC, YouChoos or Digitrains - will program the sound decoder with the sound that you want.

 

As an example, I recently fitted a Zimo MX645R plus speaker and stay-alive unit to my Dapol O-gauge Class 08 shunter (see Link 2 below).

 

I was given the choice of sounds to program into the speaker - there were two to chose from - ZS08P PROTODRIVE and  ActiveDrive ZS08ASL 

 

The programming was done in the shop whilst I waited and took around 20 mins. I could have paid Digitrains £25 to fit - but there was a huge amount of space inside the loco body (it being a O-gauge loco) and it was a doddle.

 

Similarly, I bought two Zimo sound decoders for my OO-gauge Bachmann 9F's (see this thread) at Warley and John programmed them at the show for me to collect (again around 30 mins later).

 

You may find these threads useful (refers to the O-gauge Dapol 08) Link 1 and Link 2

 

Hope this helps,

 

Art

Edited March 18, 2019 by Art Dent
Adding link to previous thread

[Phil S]

Art commented above that decoders are either 'silent' or 'sound'

Phil: Well, in the UK this is largely true, but on mainland Europe you will find 'SUSI' decoders - which are (1) the base decoder - with motor drive and functions, and with a CONNECTOR on board through which a SOUND DECODER is effectively piggybacked.

 

Examples readily on sale in this country are the Piko G Scale locos, and their Sound add-on, sold separately, which plugs into the base decoder.   Lenze decoders are or have been made with the SUSI connector, but not generally imported into the UK as far as I am aware.   However, the description could ALSO be applied to the Hornby TTS decoders - which, certainly in their early form, were physically piggy backed on the basis decoder.

 

Digitrax make a Soundbug add-on sound decoder aimed at the 00/H0 market which is offered in the UK for about the same price as their 164 ( both now may be later models)

There is an advantage in having a separate loco-motor decoder and sound decoder - which is perhaps more obvious in the larger gauges - where the indivudual costs are so much higher - that only having to replace a part of the total is cheaper when a failure occurs.

[Spiders webs across electronics can make new paths not intended by designers ..  a side effect of the outdoor life]

 

SUSI - DCCWik

https://dccwiki.com/SUSI

Jump to Decoders with SUSI Support - Uhlenbrock Elektronik. 76500 Decoders. Zimo. MX620, MX63, MX64, MX69 and MX690 decoder series.

‎SUSI - Serial User ... · ‎CVs

The Sound module for all Locomotive decoders with SUSI Interface ...

https://www.uhlenbrock.de/de_DE/service/download/handbook/en/Bes32500e.pdf

With smart start function: The Sound module stops the locomotive decoder, when ... IntelliSound 4 Modules plug into the SUSI interface of locomotive decoders ...

Edited March 18, 2019 by Phil S
add digitrax soundbug

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Phil S said:

Art commented above that decoders are either 'silent' or 'sound'

   Lenz decoders are or have been made with the SUSI connector, but not generally imported into the UK as far as I am aware.  

Lenz Gold + come with SUSI as standard

MRD have them in stock @ £30.60 for the 8 pin version. 

The Silver Mini + also has SUSI (which strangely at MRD is £30.76)

I have several Silver Mini + in use.

 

Edited March 18, 2019 by melmerby