Brighton Belle

[Mallard60022]

Just seen an article on a news feed, believe it or not, from the Daily Mail

Some good photo's of the interiors and one historic one with a very silly attempt at publicity by staff pretending (I hope) to use a headboard that is actually a coach board. 

I had heard abut this restoration but had no idea that a lot of it was happening in that leafy suburb of Brighton that is Shirebrook! I also hadn't realised it is planned to use it as a special service around the southern (electric) areas and especially Brighton.

Great fun.

Phil

Edited February 27, 2019 by Mallard60022
Speeling

[Oldddudders]

I wish them well. Having travelled on the 11.00 Down service on the last day in 1972, and watched the final, 23.00, service leave Victoria that evening, yes the train has an aura. Keeping it fettled and covering costs on the C21 network may be a challenge, though. 

[lmsforever]

Glad to see it coming back travelled on it in the fifties on a lunchtime service memorable for the rough ride chased a bowl of soup all over table!  A steward dropped a tray of food as we crashed through some pointwork boy did he swear about the driver but still a good experience.

[KeithHC]

There is also a website: http://brightonbelle.com/ It is not kept upto date but at least it shows some of the work and plans.

 

Keith, I lived next to the Brighton line so saw the Belle a lot..........

[Welly]

It is mentioned in the Telegraph this morning, even the editor commented on it!

[The Lurker]

3 hours ago, Welly said:

It is mentioned in the Telegraph this morning, even the editor commented on it!

Including mentioning that the seats and aisle are larger than originally (because we're all getting bigger) with the consequence that there are now only 3 seats across the carriage width

[Wickham Green]

14 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

Including mentioning that the seats and aisle are larger than originally (because we're all getting bigger) with the consequence that there are now only 3 seats across the carriage width

No. we're not ALL getting bigger - but the American tourists who'll be the principal clientele certainly are. ( Presumably if they'reducing Third Class from four abreast to three there'll only be space for ONE in First Class ! )

[Joseph_Pestell]

31 minutes ago, The Lurker said:

Including mentioning that the seats and aisle are larger than originally (because we're all getting bigger) with the consequence that there are now only 3 seats across the carriage width

 

Probably a journo error not realising that was the norm in first class back then.

[AMJ]

I think that there will be quite a few who never managed to travel on the train in its previous operating days who will want to travel.  Having the stock in the classic umber and cream there are going to more who'd like that over the blue grey of latter days.

 

Proportions of passengers!  If people are willing to pay to have greater space then so be it.  The increase in space is probably also due to the charter trains with MkI MetroCam seat spacing and VSOE Pulman services.

[Steamport Southport]

Possibly worth pointing out that it only had a few First Class seats. Most of it was Third Class. 40 First compared to 132 Third.

 

I believe some of the doors have been widened as well and now has wheelchair access. It also has retention toilets.

 

I would have thought that one of the main clienteles would be race goers. Breakfast and drinks before the races and then a meal and drinks on the way home. Imagine turning up to Ascot or Epsom by Brighton Belle. Definitely a bragging right to some people.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited February 28, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just taken a quick look at the website.

 

An interesting project. Not so much a restoration as a re-creation. But that is probably necessary for them to make the project viable and get permission to run on the main line.

 

Should certainly be more comfortable on modern bogies. Like others, I recall what a rough ride it was although I only did it on that last day in 1972. Still got the commemorative ticket somewhere.

[Mallard60022]

I was line-side at Earlswood that last down turn in '72.

Poor old set looked a bit worn out by then. Bit of class though.

Phil

[Oldddudders]

I suspect VSOE has set a bit of a benchmark for such vehicles. 

[locoholic]

Is there any mention of a launch date?  Hopefully soon if there's media coverage.

[Andy Hayter]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Probably a journo error not realising that was the norm in first class back then.

 

My reaction as well, but on checking further I found that the second class coaches will indeed be 2+1.

 

Projected start of operations 2020 with a 4 car unit but no finer definition at this stage.

[Oldddudders]

The 5-BEL sets had 152 third class seats, (48, 48 and 56) and 40 first (2 x20). The first class seating was 1+1 across the aisle, the third class seating 2+2. 

[robertcwp]

What the 2nd class interior used to look like: 

BEL_Car90_28-4-72_m by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[adb968008]

Pullmans are something gone before my lifetime, (well i did the Manchester Pullman with mk2’s, but there was nothing about it that stood out), so its not something that i understand. I hope you dont mind a few questions.

 

How did fares on the Pullman compare to regular fares ?

 

whats the benefit of 3rd class on the pullman vs 3rd (or even 1st) on a regular train.

 

i know a number of regular services carried pullman cars, was there a premium for this ? 

 

Was it all about dining (as it is today) or did pullmans mixed in a service train offer competing catering ?

 

My questions about Pullmans in general as well as the Belle. Any pointers to read up more are appreciated.

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by adb968008

[Andy Hayter]

While still at school, we had a trip to Brighton for a one day seminar.

On the return we took the Brighton Belle and paid a handsome 2/6 for the privilege. I would have been around 15 at the time so I guess this was a child's supplement - if there was any differentiation.   The benefit?  Afternoon tea served at your seat and getting into London about half an hour earlier than the next train.

[jamie92208]

On ‎28‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 14:20, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Should certainly be more comfortable on modern bogies. Like others, I recall what a rough ride it was although I only did it on that last day in 1972. Still got the commemorative ticket somewhere.

There were some articles a couple of years ago in one of the magazines about the project.   Much was made of how rough riding the original sets were due to the type of bogies they used.   The rebuilt ones all have a more modern design.  I can't remember if they are the B4 type or Commonwealth but it should be a great improvement.  I never travelled on them but remember watching them going through Clapham Junction in 71 when I was living in London.

 

Andy H, at 15 you would have been paying adult fares.   Those started when you were 14.

 

Jamie

[Zomboid]

And nobody has every tried to get around age limits when kids are close to a boundary...

[eastwestdivide]

Aren't the rebuilt BB cars essentially the old Pullman bodies on slightly less old complete 4-CIG underframes, with all the relatively modern electrical kit, not just the decent bogies? I thought I'd read that on the restoration website, but can't find a reference now. 

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, jamie92208 said:

There were some articles a couple of years ago in one of the magazines about the project.   Much was made of how rough riding the original sets were due to the type of bogies they used.   The rebuilt ones all have a more modern design.  I can't remember if they are the B4 type or Commonwealth but it should be a great improvement.  I never travelled on them but remember watching them going through Clapham Junction in 71 when I was living in London.

 

Andy H, at 15 you would have been paying adult fares.   Those started when you were 14.

 

Jamie

I wrote the article for RAIL magazine several years ago after having extensive conducted tours of the Belle vehicles undergoing conversion at Derby and Barrow Hill. In order to run on the main line network, the cars have to comply with the same regulations as any new train and this covers matters such as disabled access, structural design, electrical control, modern kitchen, lights, safety and signalling equipment, retention toilets, etc. The bogies - and part of the underframe to which they are attached are from 4-CIG vehicles. Those expecting a detailed recreation of the 1930s train are likely to be disappointed but it will reflect the ambience of the originals with concessions to the 21st century only in so far as the train would not be operable without them. (CJL)

[The Stationmaster]

16 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pullmans are something gone before my lifetime, (well i did the Manchester Pullman with mk2’s, but there was nothing about it that stood out), so its not something that i understand. I hope you dont mind a few questions.

 

How did fares on the Pullman compare to regular fares ?

 

whats the benefit of 3rd class on the pullman vs 3rd (or even 1st) on a regular train.

 

i know a number of regular services carried pullman cars, was there a premium for this ? 

 

Was it all about dining (as it is today) or did pullmans mixed in a service train offer competing catering ?

 

My questions about Pullmans in general as well as the Belle. Any pointers to read up more are appreciated.

 

You paid a Supplementary Fare to travel on a Pullman - so ordinary ticket plus a supplement and you were in.  On top of that the catering cost extra although I'm not sure what the difference was, if any, between what was offered to those travelling 1st Class compared with what was available to the hoi-poloi.

 

The only ones I travelled in actually in 'Pullman' service were the diesel sets on the Western and then only in Standard Class, and always in the leading power car because it wasn't over popular with passengers despite offering one of the two best riding vehicles in the train.  i think by then (1967) the Supplement was 7/6d in Standard Class (claimed back on expenses anyway) and I travelled up from Cardiff every Friday afternoon while on loan for several weeks to the Cardiff Division (based in the former TVR office building at Queen St).

 

I travelled in the BR Mk 1 based vehicles after they were transferred to the GE and used on Harwich boar  trains but by then they were just classified as 'ordinary' so you paid no extra to travel in more comfortable seats.

[AncientMariner]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

Pullmans are something gone before my lifetime, (well i did the Manchester Pullman with mk2’s, but there was nothing about it that stood out), so its not something that i understand. I hope you dont mind a few questions.

 

How did fares on the Pullman compare to regular fares ?

 

whats the benefit of 3rd class on the pullman vs 3rd (or even 1st) on a regular train.

 

i know a number of regular services carried pullman cars, was there a premium for this ? 

 

Was it all about dining (as it is today) or did pullmans mixed in a service train offer competing catering ?

 

My questions about Pullmans in general as well as the Belle. Any pointers to read up more are appreciated.

 

 

I’ve travelled on the Bournemouth Belle and Brighton Belle. 

 

My first experience of Pullman travel was in about 1965, as a teenager on a train spotting trip to the south coast from my home in Cambridge at the time, paid for by money earned from a paper round.  I travelled from Southampton to Waterloo on the Bournemouth Belle. The loco was 34089 “602 Squadron”  I travelled on it again about a year later when returning from a visit to the Isle of Wight on its last weekend of steam operation.  Again it was hauled by a rebuilt light Bulleid pacific.

 

A few years later in the early 70’s, I lived in Brighton and used the Brighton Belle quite a few times, splashing out on a 1st class ticket a couple of times.  By then it had been repainted in blue/grey.

As I recall, the usual modus operandi was for the conductor to walk through the train collecting the supplementary fare of a few bob from each passenger.  One feature was the table service, and although we often have a trolley service on trains today, it isn’t quite the same as being able to order freshly made sandwiches and a pot of tea and then having your request brought to your table.  Also the interior surroundings had an air of opulence that didn’t quite match that of a Mk 1 open coach of the period.  This was particularly true in 1st class with its 1 + 1 seating.

 

Anyway, time to get on with recreating some other youthful memories, so It’s off with the rose tinted spectacles, and on with the Optivisor.

 

John