Limitation on how many turnouts in succession when pushing GWR Auto-trailer with an 0-6-0

[awj.sompting]

This is not solely a layout issue but would appreciate advice as to whether the solution is primarily from layout adjustment. I have just returned to railway modelling after an approximately 35 yr gap and am creating  an interim layout whilst I work on flooring the loft for something more extensive.

I have have got a double oval with a crossover followed on the inner oval by a turnout into the centre of the baseboard which enables trains to move directly from the outer oval into the track inside the inner oval in one movement. As I have gone for DCC the only working loco at this moment is a Hornby 0-6-0 GWR Pannier Tank to which I have added a Hornby GWR Auto-trailer ( there is also a small selection of wagons that I have not worked with as I need to acquire some additional track for inside the inner oval ).

I am experiencing derailments when the 0-6-0 is pushing the auto-trailer across the turnout and crossover in moving from the inside area straight back to the outer oval.  In order to avoid the 0-6-0 stopping on the turnouts the movement can not be done at a slow speed.

What I am really asking views on is whether I am trying to do something that inherently is unrealistic to achieve and that the solution is to move the turnout from the inner oval to the centre so that it is before the crossover between the ovals in order to prevent pushing over three turnout curves in succession.

The track I am using is a combination of the Peco starter pack and the track that comes with the Hornby Western Master DCC set with some additional Peco track.

 

Alun

 

[Corbs]

This may not be something you are after, but I would heartily recommend replacing the insulfrog turnouts with electrofrog ones. I have a small shunting layout that originally had insulfrog points, and stalling and stuttering is a constant issue. I've replaced one with electrofrog and the difference is like night and day, no problems crawling over it at slow speed.

I think you can use them out of the box without any additional wiring but you need to use something like plastic rail joiners on the two inner tracks to avoid short circuits.

[awj.sompting]

Thanks Corbs for that suggestion. Certainly something for me to consider for the " goods yard " area inside the inner oval as I was wondering about how I was going to have it moving wagons around across turnouts at slow speeds.  

On cost grounds will probably not manage changing turnouts on the ovals for the time being plus will need to research what is involved in electrofrogs for the DCC wiring.

Alun

[Siberian Snooper]

2 hours ago, awj.sompting said:

Thanks Corbs for that suggestion. Certainly something for me to consider for the " goods yard " area inside the inner oval as I was wondering about how I was going to have it moving wagons around across turnouts at slow speeds.  

On cost grounds will probably not manage changing turnouts on the ovals for the time being plus will need to research what is involved in electrofrogs for the DCC wiring.

Alun

 

 

Not being a DCC person, but from what I have read on here,  you need a frog juicer, which automatically sorts the frog out.

 

 

[Harlequin]

Hi Alun,

 

I guess you are using Hornby and Peco Setrack - in which case all this talk of electrofrogs and juicers is neither here nor there!

 

You mentioned derailments when propelling. It's difficult to understand why they might be happening without seeing a track plan or a photo.

 

You could check the back to back distances of the wheels on your autocoach. Maybe the wheels on some axles are a bit too close together.

 

Edited March 2, 2019 by Harlequin

[melmerby]

The auto trailers are not AFAIK known for problems with holding the track.

I regularly push mine through reverse curves, slips etc. at virtually any reasonable speed with no derailments.

As Phil above mentions, probably something not quite correctly adjusted.

 

BTW the Hornby Pannier, depending on age might effectively be an 0-4-0 as on mine the centre drivers are slightly smaller diameter and do not normally make contact with the track.

Edited March 2, 2019 by melmerby

[D9020 Nimbus]

Have you tried pushing anything else? Just a thought as an auto trailer is pretty long.

Also the Hornby 0-6-0PT is an old model and not up to modern standards of running—a Bachmann 64xx should be capable of traversing the points even at slow speeds.

[DCB]

Hornby pannier shouldn't be propelling an Auto coach, I don't believe any of the panniers modelled by Hornby were fitted for Auto workings.

Hornby made a wide variety of starter set level Panniers from crude but reliable 8751 with te X04 motor to the later 27XX with sprung wheels and traction tyres  up to the current 200 mph rocket ship I was struggling with earlier.  Even the latest struggles to run slowly. My suggestion is to Stick it on eBay for a kid to play with.  Get a Bachmann.

If you have to persevere with it and its the latest non sprung axle type with centre axle drive without traction tyres check the pickups, quite often get dirty and don't make contact. Check the wheels all make contact using a multimeter.  It shouldn't really stall on points any more than on plain track of equivalent radius.

However it won't like set track points with its small flanges, the 1980s ones were much better, and propelling over them with standard couplers is pretty much guaranteed to cause derailments.   3ft radius Peco points make a huge difference.  live frogs help on DC but are probably too much hassle for DCC

If the Hornby pannier has traction tyres forget it, they stall on straight track and derail if you stop too quickly.  eBay.  It its front axle drive without traction tyres and sprung axles with an X04 motor then fitting Romford wheels and centre wheel pick up improves them no end. 

Hornby Dublo/ Peoc couplers or Kadees greatly improve the ability to propel stock across pointwork.

 

[BR60103]

What is coming off? Is it the leading bogie of the autocoach or the engine? or both?

Are the couplings similar? Old large couplings and new small ones don't like each other. Small height variations can also disagree.  Do the buffers stay far enough apart through the curves? 

 

[retiredoperator]

Hi Alun.   One of my Shunting Puzzles has Peco Electrofrog some small radius points, and even they cope okay with propelling my Hornby bogie b van.

whether or not the very slow gearing of the Bachmann 08 Shunter is different from the Hornby 08 .   Happy modelling Kev 

[awj.sompting]

Thanks Corbs for that suggestion. Certainly something for me to consider for the " goods yard " area inside the inner oval as I was wondering about how I was going to have it moving wagons around across turnouts at slow speeds.  

On cost grounds will probably not manage changing turnouts on the ovals for the time being plus will need to research what is involved in electrofrogs for the DCC wiring.

Alun

 

Thanks for the further responses -

Harlequin - i am going to reset the layout to move the turnout to go from the inner oval to the centre area so that it is before the crossover rather then after as this will bring it into line with the suggested layout in the PECO track plan book. If I still experience problems I will post a plan / photo. At this stage checking the back to back distances of the weheels on the auto-coach is beyond my experience but something I will undoubtedly need to learn.

 

melmerby - The 0-6-0 PT is brand new having come with the Hornby Western Master DCC set although it did have to go back for replacement as the coupling rod between the nearside wheels came off within 24 hrs of starting to use it. The auto-coach is brand new out of the box but as with the 0-6-0 PT there is no guarantee that it will have emerged from the factory in perfect condition so as mentioned I probably need to rapidly learn about checking back to back distances of wheels.

 

D9020 Nimbus - Have not tried pushing anything else yet. As mentioned above I am adjusting the layout and will then try with the wagons that came with the Western Master plus some other new Hornby wagons. If this goes ok will then start trying some of the older items I have but as these will be approx. 30 years old they are even more likely to throw up issues on wheel back to back dimensions and flange depths.

 

DavidCBroad - At this early stage of coming back to the hobby I am not feeling the need to be perfect  in following prototype and will anyway in the longer term be mixing late GWR steam / diesel and early BR Western Region diesel in my layout. The Hornby 0-6-0 PT was the closest affordable way of getting started on a DCC layout after an initial setback on trying to fit a decoder to a DCC Ready Railbus and therefore not being sure whether the second hand Bachman E-Z DCC Controller. Thank you for the several technical points which will be helpful as my own knowledge and ability to make adjustments develops.

 

BR70103 - The leading bogie of the Auto-trailer seemed to be staying on and it was the actual loco that was derailing. Both Loco and Auto-trailer are new Hornby with no apparent mismatch in coupling heights. Will need to look at buffer issue on curves when I have put trackwork back together.

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

There's a few things going on at once here by the look of it.  I can't help with DCC as you probably know more than me about it!

 

The Hornby pannier with the Western Master set is the current version of their 2721 class half cab, originally built as a saddle tank but converted to pannier when they were fitted with boilers with square topped 'Belpaire' fireboxes, over which of course the saddle tank won't fit.  It is a very old moulding but has the latest type of generic 0-6-0 Hornby chassis and mechanism; I have one.  But it took quite a bit of faffing to get it to run well and smoothly at low speed.  My advice; first, get rid of the traction tyre.  Mine can haul an 11 wagon fully loaded mineral train without one.  That done, you may well have to play around with the ballasting over the rear axle, vital for good pickup.  On mine the springs which bear down on this axle were too strong and were lifting the rear of the loco upwards.  You could press the bunker down about 2mm and watch it bounce back up!  

 

The user's manual from Hornby (download the PDF from the Hornby website if you haven't got one) suggests that these springs can be adjusted by stretching them if they are too soft or trimming the length if they are too strong.  This sounded like a surefire recipe for losing springs that ping off to the Planet Zarg to me, and I ballasted the bunker with 'Liquid Lead' until I was happy with the 'sit' of the loco; it needs to sit level but not be overballasted.   

 

The model comes from the factory lubricated with coloured grease, bit this in my view should be sent the same way as the traction tyre.  It may well have solidified in the box if the loco has been sitting on shelves anywhere for any time, and be performing the exact opposite function to that intended.  I use a spray can electronic switch cleaner to get rid of it; leave the loco overnight for everything to evaporate off.  Then lubricate it properly with a suitable non-mineral type supplied and declared to be safe to use around plastic by your local model shop.  This shop will also sell you a hypodermic syringe to apply the lube with, but you can get away with putting a drop on the end of a pin and using that.  Try to use as little as possible, and don't put more on if you don't think it's working, clean it off and start again.  

 

For obvious reasons, keep the hypo with your modelling stuff and away from any others used in your household for any purpose whatsoever.

 

Your loco is now ballasted and lubricated; clean the tyre surfaces and back of the wheels where the pickups bear on them and ensure that the pickups are adjusted properly.  This loco pick up on the outer wheels only and it is therefore vital that all pickups are doing their job on dead frogs; we'll come back to this in a minute.

 

Your baseboard needs to be level, especially at the joins, and track must be laid smoothly to the adjacent piece and flat to the board; clean the board and the underside of the track when you are laying it.  Smooth joins and level laying are particularly vital at pointwork.  If you are using pins to fix the track, don't drive them in too hard as there is a danger that the sleeper will deform and pull the rails out of gauge; head to sleeper top level is enough.  

 

Use the largest radius curves you can get away with, and check the manufacturer's recommended minimum for each vehicle.  I'd be wary of propelling an auto trailer over anything less than 3rd radius.  I do not have trouble with stalling at low speed on dead frogs, which I use for wiring simplicity, but attention must be paid to flat and smooth laying, and the track fixed firmly so it doesn't wander about and introduce dog legs at the joins.

 

Check the back to back wheel measurements, and that the coupling bars are the same height above the rail head; incompatibility here will result in exactly the sort of derailment you describe.  Check the flangeways of the pointwork, the channel between the running rail and the check rail at and alongside the vee, as crud getting in here will cause all sorts of problems as the flanges lift over it.  The pickups need all the help they can get, and on a loco configured like this must work perfectly as you are reduced to one out of two on the dead frogs.  Make sure that there are not 2 dead frogs next to each other at the  same distance as the loco's wheelbase; no loco can work in this case.  Consider redesigning the layout with less reverse curvature through the pointwork; look at the 'Minories' plan to see what is meant by this.  Keep track, wheel rims, and pickups scrupulously clean.

 

Lots to do.  Take it a step at a time, work methodically and do not rush.  Let us know how you get on.  

[DCB]

awj.sompting    Can you check if the loco has traction tyres on the centre wheels?   I was struggling with our  latest one  which has plug in type couplings and does not have any traction tyres when I first posted.  It needed quite a lot of weight in the pannier tanks to make it run reliably.  The small plug in couplers don't work well with  large Hornby couplers but work well with the old Airfix couplers the original auto coaches came with.

[Michael Edge]

Your problem with reverse curves may well be just that - all reverse curves, including crossovers, must have at least a short length of tangent (straight) track between the curves.

[awj.sompting]

The further responses are very much appreciated. I did rearrange the layout to remove the movement through three turnouts in succession and also replaced the Hornby turnout with a Peco one plus the track is now pinned to the baseboard ( I had initially been relying on double sided masking tape as I was not sure how far I wanted to go with this interim layout ). Theses changes have considerably improved the situation.  Felt sufficiently confident of the improvement that I allowed my 7 year old grandson to experiment with longer trains on his first visit to play with Grandad's model trains. Yes there was some derailments but to be expected when he had some 6 or 7 wagons on addition to the auto-trailer coach. He did add further wagons to the extent that the loco eventually was unable to keep enough adhesion to pull everything round the oval. Have to say that he very quickly became adept at stopping the train at the right point  but he certainly preferred using the second hand Bachmann E Z DCC controller to using Railmaster with elink but the lack if touch screen and loss of communication between the Notebook and Elink probably influenced this.

Thank you "The Johnster" for your detailed and extensive suggestions many of which I will be working through. The  curves on this interim layout are controlled by what came with the "Western Master" set and the Peco starter track set which fortuitously were not the same so the outer oval is No. 3 radius and the inner oval No. 2 radius. the size of the baseboard means that I am not able to make the oval curves any more gradual even if I could justify it financially.

 

Alun

 

ps my 0-6-0 PT does not have any traction wheels they are all smooth.

Edited March 11, 2019 by awj.sompting

[DCB]

As it is the latest Hornby pannier chassis it will have the NEM pockets and couplings which swing sideways on a bit of springy plastic.   These don't work too well  with older tension locks with the wider fixed loops especially on reverse curves.  I have been struggling with one of these 27XX locos bought new recently and it is a poor runner at low speed, it's getting better since I weighted it but while OK working hard it is very hesitant with one or two coaches.  Nothing like as good as the Bachmann 57XX or the 50 year Triang chassis under my 94XX.  I am wondering if its the blackened wheels not making good electrical contact.  

[awj.sompting]

DavidCBroad - Thanks for the benefit of your experience and when combined with some of the comments \ suggestions by The Johnster it is clear that I need to start getting my hands dirty in making some minor modifications to the Hornby 0-6-0 PT. As it is the only working Loco for the layout I will not venture into this until more items are available to use on the layout. I am  currently awaiting the return of a Heijan  AC Cars Railbus where the fitting of the DCC Decoder ran into problems plus I have been bidding for some DCC fitted items on Ebay but without success so far. I am also trying to get sufficiently confident to embark on doing a DCC conversion to one of the old collection and need to identify which one I can find the clearest instructions for. One thing I was encouraged by was this afternoon my 10 yr old granddaughter decided to add the Triang Blue Pullman Dummy Power Car to the 0-6-0 PT and Hornby Auto-trailer and they seemed to function without much problem. Whilst not a combination that I would have thought of it does mean that some of the old items may be more useable than I feared.

Alun

Edited March 13, 2019 by awj.sompting

[JST]

Just out of interest having read this post, as an experiment, I ran my old Bachmann (split chassis conversion) 0-6-0 pannier tank with my auto coach backwards through a points complex at quite a rate without problems. I think part of the success may be down to the fact that I converted the old big tension lock couplings to Kadee items.

[melmerby]

Works just as well with tension locks.

I have (until recently) been running two Airfix Autocoaches sandwiching either a Bachmann Pannier or a 45XX

The Autocoaches had the small Hornby plug in replacement T/L for Airfix mounts.

these are the R8099 couplings:

 

The Bachmann locos had their standard T/Ls

They would traverse any trackwork without a problem in either direction.

Edited March 13, 2019 by melmerby
better image

[awj.sompting]

Thanks for the various tips and suggestions. As already mentioned I will be holding back on any modifications to the loco until I have other DCC Locos. However in addition to revising the layout to remove going through the curves of three turnouts in succession I also relaid several sections of track to try and eliminate some of the joint issues which in places were due to some not immediately noticeable damage to the fishplates when I d.ismantled my first attempt at putting a layout together.

I am pleased to say that I am now able to push the Auto-trailer through the crossover between the inner and outer oval at full speed not that I would necessarily want to on a regular basis.  Improving slow speed movement over turnouts awaits acting on the suggestions made. 

 

Alun

[legin]

I regularly push an Airfix autocoach with a Hornby Jinty through reverse curve points. I have 23 of these, some vintage 1980s Hornby dead frog, some new Peco insulfrogs and one Peco streamline live frog, all code 100. All except 2 are 2nd radius setrack. The autocoach, pushed, will go through all of them without derailment. even though it has the original wheels. (Some of the old points I have reduced the checkrail gap on.) Every point is screwed down flat, not pinned and this has made a big difference to 0-6-0 pickup. I have 3 0-6-0 tanks- a new Hornby Jinty, a 1970s model and a 1970s E2. I had enormous trouble with stalling on the insulfrogs and so I loosened the chassis baseplates little by little so that the wheels had more downward play in them, enabling more contact, but not so much as to affect contact with the pickups. This has made a huge difference to slow running over the points, which, by and large can now be  negotiated without stalling. The new Hornby Jinty has pickups on all 6 wheels and therefore no traction tyres. I am running at present a loco drive 2P without one of its 2 traction tyres, which kept fouling on the curves. No ill effects so far-no derailing on any point and no shorting out of the DCC. So I think that running yours without traction tyres at all may well be ok. I presume, however, that your loco will not have pickups on the traction tyred wheels and so it may be necessary to try to connect some phosphor bronze strip to those wheels. Apart from the back to backs on the auto trailer, I would examine closely, the working of the couplings on the reverse curves. Most of my stock is vintage stuff from the 1980s, including the locos, and some of the goods wagons and coaches occasionally derail on the points when being pushed because of coupling incompatibility or buffer lock.. If you can do this slowly, after getting the points absolutely flat and maybe loosening the chassis plate somewhat, try running over the offending points as slowly as you can to see if this is the problem.