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KIT BUILDING QUESTIONS.


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About to make a start on my first Kit. So have questions for this group.

I am fine with soldering.

Its sticking White Metal ???  I am told Super Glue is fine ??

What about gap filling ?   What is best in practice. Poppys Chassis jig looks to be able to do the job  to put it together.

How do I work out which one. 

The Loco is a Keyser kit. ( Gift by the way) so not expensive to make a mistake. 

4mm.  6 Coupled.  Tank.  

I am sure you are going to ask me questions await with interest I

 

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If you're fine with soldering it's definitely the way to go. Quicker with no drying time, and will last forever if done properly, which glue won't.

 

You'll need different solders for the white metal and brass (I assume the chassis frames are brass, the rest white metal), and be able to control/ reduce the temperature on your soldering iron for the white metal, otherwise it will melt.

 

I have a Poppy's jig but haven't used it yet, seems by popular acclaim the way to go to get an accurate chassis.

 

John.

 

Edit add, if your kit has wheels they may well be fine to use, although many people replace with Romfords/ Markits. Best however if you don't fit them and then remove too many times as the accuracy of the quartering will drop. By contrast I've never had success with K's motors and gearboxes, and there are lots of other options out there.

 

Edited by John Tomlinson
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John. Have abandoned the Keyser Kit, bits missing, & the wheels are nasty. :diablo_mini:

I also have 2 DJH Kits. ( Again Free )  BR STD Class 4 2-6-4 Tank.

BR STD Class 5 4-6-0.  Both appear complete. + they have Romford Wheels.

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If the K's wheels are "nasty" it may simply be corrosion, which can be often be removed by fine sanding. Missing parts is another matter, small items can often be replaced from other suppliers, but if the boiler or running plate aren't there its a bit more tricky!

 

You can't really go wrong with Romford wheels. Despite their reputation, DJH kits aren't always as simple as they might be. Interesting comment by Mike Morley. A good starting point for you might be the STD 5 tender.

 

John.

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15 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

If the K's wheels are "nasty" it may simply be corrosion, which can be often be removed by fine sanding. Missing parts is another matter, small items can often be replaced from other suppliers, but if the boiler or running plate aren't there its a bit more tricky!

 

You can't really go wrong with Romford wheels. Despite their reputation, DJH kits aren't always as simple as they might be. Interesting comment by Mike Morley. A good starting point for you might be the STD 5 tender.

 

John.  Thats what i thought of doing first. No one yet has advised me of Gap Filling & what's best to use. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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Most of the Ks kits went to NuCast and are now with NuCast Partners, half of which is Dave Ellis of SouthEastern Finecast.  He'll generally supply spare parts for kits if you ask.

 

For filling, Squadron Green putty, Milliput, or Humbrol filler (which someone recommended just the other day).  If you are soldering then you can learn to fill holes with low melt as another option.

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If you can solder, then soldering is the way to go. If you make a mistake, put it in a bowl and pour boiling water over it and it will come apart and you will still have all the bits. A quick clean up and you can start again.  If soldering white metal, tin the brass with ordinary solder first and then use low melt to join the parts.

 

 

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2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Most of the Ks kits went to NuCast and are now with NuCast Partners, half of which is Dave Ellis of SouthEastern Finecast.  He'll generally supply spare parts for kits if you ask.

 

For filling, Squadron Green putty, Milliput, or Humbrol filler (which someone recommended just the other day).  If you are soldering then you can learn to fill holes with low melt as another option.

Jonathan is quite right with regards to soldering and it is possible to solder some quite fine detail whitemetal parts, if you are very, very careful. The same could be said with regard to soldering detailed brass or nickel silver parts to whitemetal. The key is setting the iron to the right temperature and good judgement in terms of how long to apply the heat for.

 

Having said that, I always favour gluing some parts, as it takes away the 'risk' element with regards to accidentally melting whitemetal components. I find 5 minute 2-part epoxy perfectly adequate for that and have been using this kind of glue for over 45 years now. One advantage with epoxy is that it does have a 'filler' function as well, depending on the parts concerned. It is admittedly less ideal in terms of sanding and finishing as compared with Milliput or Squadron Green putty, for example, but this can nevertheless be done, provided you let the glue really, really harden off (I'd leave it for at least a day, preferably 3 or 4 days), before taking some wet & dry to it.

 

I've built both the DJH kits you describe, quite a few years ago now, and I used a mixture of soldering and glue on them. I didn't use the DJH tender for my Standard 5, though, as I wanted a BR1G tender, so I used a plastic Hornby tender body with a brass chassis kit, as I recall. Is the DJH tender with your Standard 5 whitemetal or brass (perhaps brass components)? Presumably the cab sides are etched brass as well?

 

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20 hours ago, mike morley said:

A friend of mine has both. The Std 4 tank is the easier build but there is something not right about the cab.  The Std 5 is more accurate.

On the Standard Tank, I seem to remember that the bunker top side  inserts (used as steps?) are not catered for in the etch either, however I might have made an error when I made one (long ago & sold on). I also found that the valve gear holes were huge and needed sorting as I use brass pins and not rivets. Good kit to practise on though and you could always use a Baccy one if all else goes ti#s up!:swoon:

I believe Comet do a tender chassis and bits if required, however I seem to think that the Std 5 has one of those lovely, foldy, brass top tenders that DJH do? I've got a couple lurking somewhere if you need me to check anything for you. I am sure you know there were some minor detail differences with the Std 5s other than the tenders?

Have fun.

Phil

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I also use a mixture of solder, glue (instant) and epoxy.  However, there is epoxy and epoxy.  I use an industrial grade made by Smooth On that has Al particle embedded and can be very effectively tapped.  I have used in in some kits that have been running for at least 25 years and they are still in one piece.  It sets almost rock hard unlike most of the 5 min epoxys that always seem to be a bit tough.  The drawback is that it takes 24 hours to set properly even with a bit of heat.  Re soldering I can solder brass to brass and white metal to white metal but I have one heck of a time with white metal to brass where the joint is often brittle.  Not trying to make excuses but it may be that it is associated with the flux I have to use because over here in the GWN we cannot get the flux that Tony and others use (although I may have found a way around this problem).  

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In respect of filler, it is sometimes possible to use solder as a gap filler, by cutting small slivers which are put in place and held with liquid flux. Then apply the iron quickly close by and the solder should flash in. It can be rubbed down to shape when cool. If more is needed it can sometimes be easier to switch to something like Miliput, as another application of heat can undo the solder filler you've already done.

 

It's worth adding that I would nearly always give my soldered work a good wash at the end of each session. This may sound a bit OTT, but it clears away any grease or residual flux, and leaves the work clean and ready for your next session. I use warm water and kitchen cleaner such as Cif/ Jif, gently rubbed with a softish brush, and then rinse in cold water.

 

John.

Edited by John Tomlinson
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Having recently started with soldering white metal myself;

 

White metal to white metal seems to be pretty straightforward, just make sure its clean, wet with 6% phosphoric acid flux and add one or two small chips of solder cut from a bar with electrical side cutters.

 

I've only use my normal electronics bench iron, that has a 2.3mm tip. The metal does not conduct heat quickly and the solder melts and flow rapidly, as long as it's still wet with flux when you start heating.

 

 

White metal to brass is a bit harder.

I've been using a fibreglass pencil from Halfords to clean the brass before soldering, then apply flux, solder chips and heat - then watch it melt OK but not flow out much.... Using the cotton bud I use to apply flux, to push the solder around, does seem to work and the brass tins OK. It's rather different to normal soldering with flux cored solder, it does not flow as freely.

 

Once tinned, just heating the opposite side of the brass with the iron while holding the (fluxed) white metal part in position is enough for the solder to melt and flow well.

 

Hope this helps a bit!

 

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In order to solder whitemetal to brass the usual way is to first tin the joint area on the brass using 145 degree solder.  Then (after first remembering to turn the soldering iron temp down....  :) ) is to solder the whitemetal casting to the brass using low temp/whitemetal solder.  Because you're not actually soldering to the brass but to the solder tinned area it becomes much easier.

HTH

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Can I also recommend that you hunt down the BRM "Right Tracks" DVD's featuring Mr Tony Wright. Volumes 1 & 2  cover kit building and will give you all the information you need to accompany your books. 

 

Tony is an expert and if he doesn't use solder, he uses Epoxy and/or superglue to good effect.

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6 hours ago, ianLMS said:

Can I also recommend that you hunt down the BRM "Right Tracks" DVD's featuring Mr Tony Wright. Volumes 1 & 2  cover kit building and will give you all the information you need to accompany your books. 

 

Tony is an expert and if he doesn't use solder, he uses Epoxy and/or superglue to good effect.

 

I believe these may even be available via youtube.....

 

Edit:  Not any more it seems.........  :(

Edited by polybear
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1 hour ago, polybear said:

 

I believe these may even be available via youtube.....

I haven't seen the Right Track ones on you-tube, but "The Loco Builder" posts excellent video's on you-tube. His video's and Tony Wrights dvd's really helped me with my first kits. I only started kit building a year or two ago. I am now on my 5th loco build. I try to solder, whether its WM to WM, or Brass to Brass, or WM to Brass. I have a Yuhai 995D temp controlled iron with a heat gun. I use the heat gun for areas I need to fill with Low Melt solder where I can't get an iron to without causing damage to surrounding parts. I flood the join with flux, add small slithers of Low melt solder, then apply the heat-gun (at approx. 250 degrees C setting/mid-fan speed). Short bursts of heat see the solder melt and flood into the join without damaging anything else. Excellent for gap filling and for chimneys, domes etc. 

 

For WM to brass, I tin the brass using 145 solder, then use the iron to add a blob of low melt to the join after flooding with flux. A good clean first with a fibreglass  pencil helps a lot.

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