North London Line Steam Services - Jinty Tanks

[Nearholmer]

Folks,

 

I've come to understand that the non-electrified services out of Broad Street, onto the ex-GNR, were hauled by Jinty tanks during the 1930s, and consisted of four-wheeled coaches, primarily the 'late' built ones provided after the LNWR take-over of the NLR. The locos were apparently allocated to Devons Road, and included the ones originally provided for use on the SDJR.

 

Does anyone know of any photos of these trains on the internet? The idea of a Jinty carrying a destination board across the front rather appeals! The possibility that the SDJR ones were used on this route while still painted blue appeals even more, but I guess that is a wish too far.

 

All help gratefully received.

 

Kevin

[Nearholmer]

Well, I found a lovely set of photos in this photo stream (click on picture to access the rest), with Jinties hauling original NLR birdcage sets, as well as the LNWR-built sets ........ talk about atmospheric!

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Nearholmer

[anroar53]

Could try this, Jinty at Highgate High Level on a High Barnet train.

 

https://klempner69.smugmug.com/Highgate-abandoned-railway-station-2017/i-7M3V7Fk

 

Andy A.

[Nearholmer]

An excellent one; thank you.

 

Found details of the locos involved here https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10465

 

It appears that a blue Jinty in London may be possible, in that ex-SDJR locos 7155 & 7156 went for a try-out at Plaistow, I think during the period when they were blue, but with LMS letters and numbers.

 

[Poor Old Bruce]

Some Jintys were built with screw reversers, the SDJR ones were so fitted as they were originally intended for mixed traffic use. In the event, they were mostly used for shunting (and banking) where the lever reversers were more appropriate. The LMS therefore swapped them around to where they would be more useful, hence their appearance on the NLR.

[Wickham Green]

Jonty didn't have any tanks in the thirties ..................... than name wasn't invented - gawd know's who by - until MUCH later. 

[br2975]

20 hours ago, Wickham Green said:

Jonty didn't have any tanks in the thirties ..................... than name wasn't invented - gawd know's who by - until MUCH later. 

No different to folk describing diesel locomotives classes by their TOPS code, in/for periods prior to the introduction of TOPS. It may be irksome to some, but it makes life easier for others. 

.

Like calling a 3F tank a "Jinty" not a "Jocko" but hey, knowing all this may be wrong, I still sleep at nights.

[Nearholmer]

Not being at all a fan of the LMS, all that I know of Jintys up to now came from a bent plastic Triang one, so I’m learning all the time. I read a thread about the nickname on another forum, which seemed to consist of several people who didn’t actually know where or when the name originated, speculating on the topic, so any genuinely definitive information would be welcome.

 

i was told some years ago that Terrier was a modern enthusiast name for a Brighton A1, and that the real nickname was Rooter. Then, plan as day in black and white, an article in The Engineer c1875, where the locos are called Terriers!

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 03/03/2019 at 21:57, Nearholmer said:

Well, I found a lovely set of photos in this photo stream (click on picture to access the rest), with Jinties hauling original NLR birdcage sets, as well as the LNWR-built sets ........ talk about atmospheric!

 

 

 

 

Lovely photo. I wonder why we don't see more layouts based on the NLR.

[johnofwessex]

2 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

.................................

i was told some years ago that Terrier was a modern enthusiast name for a Brighton A1, and that the real nickname was Rooter. Then, plan as day in black and white, an article in The Engineer c1875, where the locos are called Terriers!

 

Just dont use 'Root' or 'Rooter' in Australia!

[Jeff Smith]

44 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Lovely photo. I wonder why we don't see more layouts based on the NLR.

 

Possibly due to lack of RTR stock.  There are, or have been kits for all of the later locos and some coaching stock.  It's a bit similar to having the excellent Heljan Met/LT Bo-Bo but only Dreadnought kits to pull.

[Jeff Smith]

11 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Just dont use 'Root' or 'Rooter' in Australia!

 Roto-Rooter is a common plumbing service in the US.

[Wickham Green]

27 minutes ago, johnofwessex said:

 

Just dont use 'Root' or 'Rooter' in Australia!

......... and while everyone's checking that out, maybe they'd like to look up the 'J' word on the internet too !

[Nearholmer]

Yes, in 4mm the stock has to be kit/scratch built, and, from what I can discover, in 7mm the only kit is for the birdcage brake, the earlier coaches aren’t available, and neither are the LNWR-built ones, and likewise the EMUs.

 

if anyone knows differently, i’d be interested.

[HonestTom]

5 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

Not being at all a fan of the LMS, all that I know of Jintys up to now came from a bent plastic Triang one, so I’m learning all the time. I read a thread about the nickname on another forum, which seemed to consist of several people who didn’t actually know where or when the name originated, speculating on the topic, so any genuinely definitive information would be welcome.

 

i was told some years ago that Terrier was a modern enthusiast name for a Brighton A1, and that the real nickname was Rooter. Then, plan as day in black and white, an article in The Engineer c1875, where the locos are called Terriers!

I heard - though I don't recall where and I therefore can't vouch for the accuracy - that the nickname came from their early days in East London, when they were used in the Thames Tunnel. Like the dogs, they spent a lot of their time diving underground.

 

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Lovely photo. I wonder why we don't see more layouts based on the NLR.

I'm a big fan of the NLR, but yeah, the issue is shortage of stock. I've often wondered if anything could be done with one of those Golden Valley "Barclay" 0-6-0s to create something like a NLR tank.

 

Camden Road, the only surviving NLR station building, is absolutely beautiful.

 

On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 22:24, Nearholmer said:

An excellent one; thank you.

 

Found details of the locos involved here https://www.lner.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10465

 

It appears that a blue Jinty in London may be possible, in that ex-SDJR locos 7155 & 7156 went for a try-out at Plaistow, I think during the period when they were blue, but with LMS letters and numbers.

 

 

If you wanted to model Plaistow, the station retains many of its LTSR period features, and even one or two from Midland days. I spent some time there a few weekends ago taking photos. Lovely little station, very sympathetically restored.

[Joseph_Pestell]

16 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

I heard - though I don't recall where and I therefore can't vouch for the accuracy - that the nickname came from their early days in East London, when they were used in the Thames Tunnel. Like the dogs, they spent a lot of their time diving underground.

 

I

 

 

I don't think that they would ever have been common in the Thames Tunnel. More the territory of GER tank locos.

[Nearholmer]

Are we talking about Terriers, or Jintys?

 

Terriers were designed and built for the East London Line, hence condensing year, and, yes, diving down the hole is where both names, Rooter and Terrier, come from, both meaning exactly the same sort of dog - its small, goes to ground, and has a sharp bark.

 

jintys did regularly Cross the river, but via the widened lines and snow hill, with coal trains to Walworth Road and, I think, Knights Hill, rather than via the ELL.

Edited March 5, 2019 by Nearholmer

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 

 

On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 21:24, Nearholmer said:

...I've come to understand that the non-electrified services out of Broad Street, onto the ex-GNR, were hauled by Jinty tanks during the 1930s...

There's a useful overview book too 'London's own railway, The North London Railway 1846-2001' by Dennis Lovett (yes, that Mr Lovett) pub Irwell. Good illustrations throughout. See those little 3F 0-6-0T's struggling uphill to Potter's Bar. LNWR 0-6-2T, Fowler 2-6-2T and finally four Stanier 2-6-2T were also tried on these services, but it appears that the 3F was the preferred machine until this service ceased early in WWII.

 

57 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

 ...I'm a big fan of the NLR, but yeah, the issue is shortage of stock. I've often wondered if anything could be done with one of those Golden Valley "Barclay" 0-6-0s to create something like a NLR tank...

It's a fair basis. Wheels 2mm undersize, and wheelbase assymetric but right length overall, frame length a good 10mm short but that would be easy to extend and add replacement bufferbeams, boiler centreline above rail and boiler diameter right, cab design a near match and almost tall enough, cylinders need an outside wrapper to bulk them up, raised firebox needs to be replaced with a longer parallel section matching barrel as cab is moved to rear, new cab steps, the tanks also move back with cab and reskinned to eliminate tapered drop, replacement chimney, lop off inappropriate detail doodads. Should enable a quick lookee-likee job.

 

Or I just take the lazy route of new chimney, bulk up cylinders, new cab steps, reskin side tanks, lop off detail, BR black, job done. This wouldn't preclude a later 'full rebuild' should no RTR model ever appear.

 

It's on my 'potentials' to do list, as I lucked into one of these Electrotren/Golden Valley 0-6-0T last year.

 

 

57 minutes ago, HonestTom said:

 ...If you wanted to model Plaistow

...then you must pronounce it authentically: Plarster. I'd a mate wotgot born in Plarster, 'n' all his famly called it Plarster. I was quite an age before I reconciled it with the map location that rhymes with 'Playdough'.

 

Edited March 5, 2019 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[Nearholmer]

Yes, I know Dennis, and have seen his book.

 

theres also a joint GNRS/NLRS book specifically about the services from Broad Street onto the GNR, by Alan Sibley and Jim Connor. I saw a copy on Saturday, and should have bought it!

[Jeff Smith]

1 hour ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

2 hours ago, HonestTom said:

 ...I'm a big fan of the NLR, but yeah, the issue is shortage of stock. I've often wondered if anything could be done with one of those Golden Valley "Barclay" 0-6-0s to create something like a NLR tank...

It's a fair basis. Wheels 2mm undersize, and wheelbase assymetric but right length overall, frame length a good 10mm short but that would be easy to extend and add replacement bufferbeams, boiler centreline above rail and boiler diameter right, cab design a near match and almost tall enough, cylinders need an outside wrapper to bulk them up, raised firebox needs to be replaced with a longer parallel section matching barrel as cab is moved to rear, new cab steps, the tanks also move back with cab and reskinned to eliminate tapered drop, replacement chimney, lop off inappropriate detail doodads. Should enable a quick lookee-likee job.

 

Or I just take the lazy route of new chimney, bulk up cylinders, new cab steps, reskin side tanks, lop off detail, BR black, job done. This wouldn't preclude a later 'full rebuild' should no RTR model ever appear.

 

It's on my 'potentials' to do list, as I lucked into one of these Electrotren/Golden Valley 0-6-0T last year.

 

Sounds like a lot of work when there's a perfectly good white metal body kit from Gem

[Pannier Tank]

On 04/03/2019 at 09:58, Poor Old Bruce said:

Some Jintys were built with screw reversers, the SDJR ones were so fitted as they were originally intended for mixed traffic use. In the event, they were mostly used for shunting (and banking) where the lever reversers were more appropriate. The LMS therefore swapped them around to where they would be more useful, hence their appearance on the NLR.

 

We had 47500 an ex 1D Devons Road Engine at Bletchley;  she had a Screw Reverser and the Brackets for holding the Destination Boards. 

[Steamport Southport]

On ‎04‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 10:15, Wickham Green said:

Jonty didn't have any tanks in the thirties ..................... than name wasn't invented - gawd know's who by - until MUCH later. 

 

Jinty as a nickname went back to the MR 0-4-0Ts. It was a reference to the boiler diagram J and the term was in common usage well before 1900. it was a bit like Scottish drivers calling all small tank engines Pugs. It stuck as a term and I remember well into the 1980s some drivers even calling the 08s Jinties.

 

It's nothing to do with comics or Thomas the Tank Engine. Even so as a term in TTTE it was being used in the 1940s.

 

Source. David Jenkinson in various books.

 

 

Jason

Edited March 5, 2019 by Steamport Southport

[pH]

13 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

It was a bit like Scottish drivers calling all small tank engines Pugs.

 

Going off -topic, sorry. At least in the west of Scotland, it was acceptable to call any tank engine a "pug". For example, I've seen these referred to as "Wemyss Bay pugs":

https://travelandmixpix.smugmug.com/Rail/Steam/Engines-Of-The-Caledonian/i-tBcVCBG

 

I've also read an ex-Polmadie fireman referring to a Fairburn tank as a "big pug".

[Caledonian]

David Smith had some very unkind things to say about about Fowler 3F tanks in his Legends of the Glasgow & South Western Railway in LMS Days, and commented

 

"I have seen it written that it was G&SW men who christened those engines Jinties. As far as I am concerned, I never heard the term used. I do not think that the G&SW men used any such term for those engines. Their scorn was too great."

[Nearholmer]

Hmmm ........ this is turning into a photocopy of the debate/speculation about the nickname on the other forum, which isn't quite what I'd intended.

 

Any more pointers to photos or information about these Engines-Commonly-Known-As-Jintys (Or, is it Jinties? Or, is that another can of worms?) during their use on the NLL?