All new RTR Class 91 and Mark 4 carriages

[zoomer1979]

Having read through the full thread, I was more than happy to pre order one today. All bells and whistles as well, as Bif's sounds never disappoint! Thank you both for grabbing the initiative on this.

[Bomag]

Am I being very dense but where is the prorder section for 2mm 91+Mk4, I can only find the 4mm one?

[Padishar Creel]

On 30/11/2019 at 22:03, Bomag said:

Am I being very dense but where is the prorder section for 2mm 91+Mk4, I can only find the 4mm one?

There is no pre-order form for N-gauge right now. I asked Cavalex via their FB page if this is still going ahead, and they confirmed. All energies going towards 4mm/00 right now. 2mm/N to follow.

Just gives us more time to save.

 

es grüßt 

pc

 

[mdvle]

Hornby have announced a new tooled Class 91 - https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/150159-Hornby-2020-range-announcements/#comments

[TomE]

I hope the Hornby announcement doesn't impact the Cavalex project, given the 4mm version is the route to a high spec N Gauge model! 

Seems a somewhat unnecessary move by Hornby, considering they haven't previously shown any interest in revisiting the 91 until someone else came along. 

 

Tom.  

 

 

 

[PaulRhB]

Well as expected the guys have been ‘Terrier’d’ by Hornby. Let’s hope the Cavalex one gets out first so the reviews bolster the quality we’re seeing in the wagons. 

[Andy Mac]

Hornby, as far as I can see haven’t announced new tooling for mk4 coaches yet...  advantage still with Cavalex 

[classy52]

Seriously do Hornby have to re-tool the Class 91 thus creating duplication with Cavalex...Class 71 & whatever else they've duplicated all over again 

For me a cynical attempt to get one over smaller competition.

Edited January 6, 2020 by classy52

[chris p bacon]

26 minutes ago, classy52 said:

Seriously do Hornby have to re-tool the Class 91 thus creating duplication with Cavalex...Class 71 & whatever else they've duplicated all over again 

For me a cynical attempt to get one over smaller competition.

 

It could be argued that Cavalex have chosen to duplicate a model which has been in the Hornby stable for a couple of decades.  You can't blame Hornby for looking at the tooling they have and seeing what more they can get from it with revisions, you also don't know what timescale this has been over, in discussion with its funders this might have been on the cards to 2 years.

If I was Cavalex I would have always known this could happen, and as we don't know their business case for producing the 91 they might still be sitting comfortably. 

[TomE]

Hornby announcements are, to me as an N Gauge modeller, more a list of what we're never likely to see RTR in N Gauge, and now they seem to be taking the position that if they have a model in their range it's their model and woe betide anyone who tries to take it off them. At the same time they are more than happy to poach prototypes from their competitors, such as the Lord Nelson, MK.2Fs etc. As far as N Gauge is concerned, I'm not sure this new found aggressiveness from Hornby is a good thing.

 

Anyway, I genuinely hope Cavalex continue with their model. As mentioned above Hornby have not announced new coaches or DVT so perhaps that is the saving grace.  

 

Tom  

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by TomE

[BR(S)]

As Cavalex are offering the whole train, with sound if you want it, and with the quality of their work we've seen to date, I can't see people rushing to cancel their orders.  Looking forward to my Cavalex 91, Mk4s and DVT, with correct Intercity beige colour  

Edited January 6, 2020 by BR(S)
Add in DCC sound as another point in their favour!

[PaulRhB]

1 minute ago, BR(S) said:

As Cavalex are offering the whole train and with the quality of their work we've seen to date, I can't see people rushing to cancel their orders.  Looking forward to my Cavalex 91, Mk4s and DVT, with correct Intercity beige colour  

In fact I’m more likely to order from Cavalex even though I just want the loco. I can understand why on a business level but they sat on the old model too long and then take on a small manufacturer but don’t take on the bigger fish like the Hattons 66 with a new model, a far bigger market? I think Hornby missed a trick there staying with the old tooling. They should have dumped that in Railroad. 
hopefully Cav and Alex were working on the basis of the discerning modeller for figures and Hornby will just take their existing fans who probably wouldn’t have bought the Cavalex one anyway. Some savvy promotion in the press that no longer get review freebies from Hornby would help there  

[sandwich station]

20 minutes ago, BR(S) said:

  Looking forward to my Cavalex 91, Mk4s and DVT, with correct Intercity beige colour  

 

Hopefully.  

[sanspareil]

So the rumours I heard were true. But it seems Hornby are not just doing a Railroad+ version but all the bells and whistles version (although i am sure it wont be up to the standards of Cavlex, more Class 87 standard).

 

Time will tell now how Cavlex respond as there is no doubt it will weaken their business case to a degree. Hornby are sure to release the Mk4's in time (you would think!). I think the lack of carriage announcement is one area that maybe strengthens Cavlex, Its possible it will be 2-3 years until we see the MK4's from Hornby and how long for all the livery variants to be covered.

[BR(S)]

18 minutes ago, AlexHolt said:

You've got to remember that models like this take a lot of time to research and make. If you look at Hornby's development timescale of other models many of them start 1-2 years before they make any announcements. Hornby's one has likely already been in development since mid 2018. 

 

 

[woodenhead]

I'm still cynical about the Hornby announcement timing even if they had 'looked' at it in 2016, it's still only the loco and their coaches would have looked out of place with an all singing/dancing loco if Cavalex didn't also happen to have the coaches being tooled.

 

To me looking meant it was put back into the 'we don't need to do this pile as people are still buying it at full fat prices'.  Then along came Cavalex and they've now decided it's another cashcow being lost but they can't stick the current model in Railroad without admitting that was really all it ever was against the other locos in their range.

 

I understand this is business, you have to react to competition and sometimes it sucks, I notice that Bachmann react differently, I guess it will be a few years before we see which approach is the best one.

[sanspareil]

It is very much business and we are seeing more aggression towards the new entrants from both Bachmann and Hornby - in the past of course it has even been between legacy manufacturers themselves duplicating and releasing competing products.

 

Its publicly know that both the big legacy players are far from overjoyed with the likes of Accurascale and Cavalex to name two. Not to mention how we have seen Bachmann deal with probably their biggest account - Hattons.

Edited January 6, 2020 by sanspareil

[Pete the Elaner]

47 minutes ago, sanspareil said:

Hornby are sure to release the Mk4's in time (you would think!). I think the lack of carriage announcement is one area that maybe strengthens Cavlex, Its possible it will be 2-3 years until we see the MK4's from Hornby and how long for all the livery variants to be covered.

A bit like the real thing with the locos arriving first.

What Hornby have also announced for this year are a re-run of swallow Mk3s & a twin pack of HST DVTs (but with the later style of part yellow ends) so the original formation will be possible.

[Pete the Elaner]

52 minutes ago, sanspareil said:

So the rumours I heard were true. But it seems Hornby are not just doing a Railroad+ version but all the bells and whistles version (although i am sure it wont be up to the standards of Cavlex, more Class 87 standard).

The 87 will be 2-3 years old when the 91 is released. Bachmann's 90 raised the bar so Hornby could well try to push it a little further.

& Oxford's Mk3A coaches were widely anticipated to be exceptional but many are disappointed with them.

We we have to wait & see what both are like.

[sanspareil]

Agree on the 87, the Bachmann 90 is more advanced than the Hornby 87 for near the same money!

[woodenhead]

13 minutes ago, sanspareil said:

Agree on the 87, the Bachmann 90 is more advanced than the Hornby 87 for near the same money!

And this I believe is how Bachmann are responding by matching and upping the quality.

 

That isn't how Hornby did the new Terrier and it's stick on buffers which smacked of design clever, Rails dropped the ball with the initial attempt on the spectacle face, hopefully when they finally release the Terrier it will knock spots off the Hornby version though I expect Hornby had done quite nicely out of the Dapol/Rails delays.

[Kaput]

No matter what happens the chances of the DCC provision on the Hornby 91 being anything more than an 8 pin socket and barely enough space for a tiny decoder with basic directional lighting is minimal.

[guarded]

I'm in for the complete train from Cavalex and nothing will change this.

[justin1985]

I went to go and place a pre-order for a Calvalex cl.91 set, to show support, but alas still no pre-order option for N / 2mm!

 

Presumably the CAD for the externals of the models is the only commonality between the OO and N projects, and if that is already done, there is no reason not to progress the N gauge model, even if the OO one has been gotcha'ed? You'd think, anyway ... 

 

[MGR Hooper!]

4 hours ago, TomE said:

I hope the Hornby announcement doesn't impact the Cavalex project, given the 4mm version is the route to a high spec N Gauge model! 

Seems a somewhat unnecessary move by Hornby, considering they haven't previously shown any interest in revisiting the 91 until someone else came along. 

 

Tom.  

 

 

 

 

Incorrect, when they announced the Class 87 2-3 years ago, they clearly said they were looking at doing the Class 91 as well.  They also said that they chose the Class 87 first as it was only a single unit to tool up for and that was favourable for their financial situation back then. The Class 91 has been on the cards for a long time. Hornby never announces anything prematurely, they always announce something when it's well along it's development cycle. So you can't say they've shown interest when others come along. The same applied to the A1/A1X Terrier and the Class 71. These were all much more advanced than their competitors.

 

4 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

Hornby, as far as I can see haven’t announced new tooling for mk4 coaches yet...  advantage still with Cavalex 

 

Yes, but the Class 91s are due in December 2020, there's no ruling out the possiblity that Mk.4 coaches and a Mk.4 DVT can come in 2021.

 

4 hours ago, classy52 said:

Seriously do Hornby have to re-tool the Class 91 thus creating duplication with Cavalex...Class 71 & whatever else they've duplicated all over again 

For me a cynical attempt to get one over smaller competition.

 

How is Hornby at fault for duplication? Clearly the Hornby Class 91 is at a more advanced stage, they've been working on it longer (see Paul Isles' post). Nothing is being done intentionally. Hornby have passed a point where their investments into new models has been high. If they turn back it's their loss. AFAIK Cavalex do their CAD work in-house and that means they've spent much less than Hornby so far in terms of R&D. Once again the same scenario applies to the Class 71, A1/A1X Terrier, Adams Radial and so on.