YesTor Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) On 06/01/2020 at 11:57, sanspareil said: It is very much business and we are seeing more aggression towards the new entrants from both Bachmann and Hornby ... Its publicly know that both the big legacy players are far from overjoyed with the likes of Accurascale and Cavalex to name two. Indeed. Direct competition is always bound to ruffle feathers, but without it Hornby may well have continued peddling their ancient Class 91 for another decade at top price, and perhaps similar too with Bachmann and their Deltic, 66, 37 and so on. I also doubt that Bachmann would have upgraded the Class 158 quite to the level that they have done had it not been for the fairly recent emergence of the super-duper Realtrack 156. New and upcoming manufacturers have to do something new and cutting-edge to get noticed, and by doing so their efforts force the bigger players to pull up their socks and take notice, or risk falling behind. At the end of the day it can only be good in terms of improved standards for modellers. Al Edited January 8, 2020 by YesTor 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
berwicksfinest Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Personally I think its spiteful from Hornby. Now this isn't Hornby Bashing by any means, let's be fair it would be naive in thinking that Simon didn't know about Cavalex's efforts, and continued with announcing the Class 91. Yet realistically having just released a pretty decent Class 87, I am sure Hornby's efforts would of been better directed into an equally decent Class 86, which would be a better option for all. Yet Hornby decided to pick on the "up and comers" 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Mac Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 37 minutes ago, berwicksfinest said: Personally I think its spiteful from Hornby. Now this isn't Hornby Bashing by any means, let's be fair it would be naive in thinking that Simon didn't know about Cavalex's efforts, and continued with announcing the Class 91. Yet realistically having just released a pretty decent Class 87, I am sure Hornby's efforts would of been better directed into an equally decent Class 86, which would be a better option for all. Yet Hornby decided to pick on the "up and comers" Explain to me why it’s spiteful? The class 225 is an existing Hornby model... I think Hornby have said that they regard it as their’s.... how do you know Hornby weren’t developing the model before Cavalex made their announcement? Hornby and Bachmann now have a policy of only announcing models that are going to released within the next catalogue period... so it’s quite possible they were developing theirs first.... we will probably never know, but as Hornby and Bachmann come out of their difficult years, then I’m sure we will see them trying to recapture lost ground.... I wouldn’t describe it as spiteful, it’s just business.... Edited January 8, 2020 by Andy Mac 2 5 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted January 8, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2020 41 minutes ago, berwicksfinest said: Personally I think its spiteful from Hornby. Now this isn't Hornby Bashing by any means, let's be fair it would be naive in thinking that Simon didn't know about Cavalex's efforts, and continued with announcing the Class 91. Yet realistically having just released a pretty decent Class 87, I am sure Hornby's efforts would of been better directed into an equally decent Class 86, which would be a better option for all. Yet Hornby decided to pick on the "up and comers" We don't know and will never know . I know Paul Isles has said they started looking at it in 2016 which long predates Cavalex , but there is a difference in looking at it and actively pursuing it for production . So It would be interesting to see when the decision to launch as part of 2020 range was made . In reality I'll bet its not here until 2021 . So Cavalex are still in with a good chance . Get yours to market first and I think it will be Hornby that suffer . The fact that there are no Mk4s in the range suggests to me that the Hornby offering is a bit half hearted and perhaps has been accelerated from the 2021 announcements . So by delivering accompanying Mk4s Cavalex could still clean up . Its a big task for a relatively small company to do though and I wish them well. I hope neither company loses their shirt on this . Although Hornby much bigger they are still hugely in debt and are yet to be profitable. I think we can see a trend though . The 71, 66, Terrier, Prairie and now 91. It might suggest keeping hands off anything in Hornbys range because they will react and there's a chance they will get it to market before you . Bachmann on the other hand don't seem so flexible so the 66 55 and 37 are all being picked off. So it looks to me that Hornby have decided to actively defend their turf whereas perhaps Bachmann lack the capacity to do so. 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trains4U Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 And the DJ APT only died recently I think it’s fair to assume that he was in their sights too. development is probably further down the line on that particular model. would we have seen the APT if DJ hadn’t announced? 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodenhead Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Legend said: Bachmann on the other hand don't seem so flexible so the 66 55 and 37 are all being picked off. So it looks to me that Hornby have decided to actively defend their turf whereas perhaps Bachmann lack the capacity to do so. And the class 45 and the 47 too. Bachmann may respond in a different manner perhaps than Hornby - the 158 by all accounts is a beauty, revised 45 to come as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
berwicksfinest Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Andy Mac said: Explain to me why it’s spiteful? The class 225 is an existing Hornby model... I think Hornby have said that they regard it as their’s.... how do you know Hornby weren’t developing the model before Cavalex made their announcement? Hornby and Bachmann now have a policy of only announcing models that are going to released within the next catalogue period... so it’s quite possible they were developing theirs first.... we will probably never know, but as Hornby and Bachmann come out of their difficult years, then I’m sure we will see them trying to recapture lost ground.... I wouldn’t describe it as spiteful, it’s just business.... As I said my personal opinion. However I said spiteful, by matter of fact of, as previously said, Hornby looked at it in 2016. At that point they decided nope, were going to go with the Class 87, and fair to say, no other company had that on their agenda. Yet a little further down the line Cavalex said they would give it a go, Hornby suddenly have an interest in the Class 91. It's like watch my dogs, they don't want their food but they won't let the others have it. The little players want to do a model justice, Hornby suddenly had plans dating way back to bring it out too, Yet Bachmann's produce a Class 90, no interest from Hornby. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classy52 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 3 hours ago, berwicksfinest said: Personally I think its spiteful from Hornby. Now this isn't Hornby Bashing by any means, let's be fair it would be naive in thinking that Simon didn't know about Cavalex's efforts, and continued with announcing the Class 91. Yet realistically having just released a pretty decent Class 87, I am sure Hornby's efforts would of been better directed into an equally decent Class 86, which would be a better option for all. Yet Hornby decided to pick on the "up and comers" For me there is a pattern developing here from Hornby as they appear to go after the smaller players within the locomotive area but keep clear of the bigger boys like Bachmann, Heljan, Hatton's & Accurascale (already established in Ireland & really growing in the UK) and the reason I say this because why haven't they announced re-tooled models of the following which have been with them in basic form for a tremendous amount of time and one could argue regarded as one of theirs? 1. Class 90 (new from Bachmann) 2. Class 92 (new from Accurascale) 3. Class 37 (new from Accurascale) 4. Class 47 (new from Heljan, mind you there is time on this one) 5. Class 66 (new from Hatton's) 6. Have I missed any others? But you see from the above another pattern that has emerged where they won't dare go up against these companies & re-tool but will slap every livery known to man on their RailRoad versions to try to syphon sales away from them. It's easy going after Cavalex and probably DJ Models if he was still around hence the good point made by Trains4U but you can read into it in whatever way you will and yes I think Hornby have adopted an aggressive business policy against their competitors based on 'oh that model belongs to us' type of crap which a few contributors have already mentioned in various threads but they appear to be selective to whom they go up against. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2020 The common part of the argument about Hornby treading on others toes, is that the competitors chose something that had already been produced by Hornby and could very easily be produced by them again. Cavalex/Accurascale/Hatton's etc, should always have had an eye on the fact that a major manufacturer such as Hornby which has to keep its funders happy will use every revenue stream possible to keep their head above water. And if that means reproducing an existing model which has had interest shown in it, then that is what they will do. Do people honestly expect Hornby to just stand aside while competitors cherry pick from their back catalogue? It's Just business, nothing else. 5 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 If other players have a genuinely superior model to Hornby's, and if there's a market for that extra fidelity, then they will win business from Hornby. Hornby doesn't 'own' any prototype, no matter what it might think and have in its back catalogue. That said, timely marketing is all. As I noted earlier, the timing of Hornby's announcement, and its stated delivery, suggest that H was already on this well before Cavelex's announcement. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classy52 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 15 minutes ago, chris p bacon said: Do people honestly expect Hornby to just stand aside while competitors cherry pick from their back catalogue? It's Just business, nothing else. Yet they have except for the Class 91 which my post precisely shows, I have highlighted 5 modern image loco's that Hornby have not touched and probably won't and have consigned themselves to slapping liveries on their existing RailRoad versions and from where I'm standing with no intention to re-tool any of them but going after Cavalex looks like an easy option due to their size and lack of consumer visibility at the moment, and they would have done the same to DJ Models with the APT. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
truffy Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 59 minutes ago, classy52 said: For me there is a pattern developing here from Hornby as they appear to go after the smaller players within the locomotive area but keep clear of the bigger boys like Bachmann, Heljan, Hatton's & Accurascale (already established in Ireland & really growing in the UK) and the reason I say this because why haven't they announced re-tooled models of the following which have been with them in basic form for a tremendous amount of time and one could argue regarded as one of theirs? Bachmann obviously don't consider Hattons to be one of the bigger boys. Or, if they do, they have very different way of gonig about it! 59 minutes ago, classy52 said: 3. Class 37 (new from Accurascale) Also Bachmann? 59 minutes ago, classy52 said: 5. Class 66 (new from Hatton's) Also Bachmann! Don't get me wrong, I'm not a Horny fanboi, far from it, but perhaps a bit more perspective is needed here? Consider the timing of announcements vs. delivery and R&D/production timelines. 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2020 8 minutes ago, classy52 said: Yet they have except for the Class 91 which my post precisely shows, I have highlighted 5 modern image loco's that Hornby have not touched and probably won't and have consigned themselves to slapping liveries on their existing RailRoad versions and from where I'm standing with no intention to re-tool any of them but going after Cavalex looks like an easy option due to their size and lack of consumer visibility at the moment, and they would have done the same to DJ Models with the APT. In the case of the 66 and the Terrier what else did they need to do to make money ? With the strictness of legislation that proctects consumers from monopolys and manufacturers stitching up supply lines, they have to work in isolation and secrecy. But If your competition sticks its head above the parapet and says "I'm going to do a super dooper XYZ" that you already have in your catalogue and have been working on, then why shouldn't you bring yours to market ? Why should you step aside for the new boy when there are 6 figure sums at stake. People are forgetting that for us this is a hobby, but for the likes of Hornby this is their bread and butter, and if squeezing out the competition keeps you in a job then that is what you do. 2 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold chris p bacon Posted January 8, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 8, 2020 1 minute ago, truffy said: Bachmann obviously don't consider Hattons to be one of the bigger boys. Or, if they do, they have very different way of gonig about it Bachmann have dealt with Hattons by refusing to supply them, You only have to look at the business they used to do with now, and take a guess that it has hurt Hattons. 2 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 I have an 87 with the BW pantograph and I wish Hornby had made it out of metal The clasp which holds the arm to the base has snapped on one side Okay so a replacement plastic pantograph should be cheap to buy but AFAIK replacements are not yet available - so I have an 87 running without a raised pantograph now. On the other hand I have a Bachmann 90 and the pantograph I am very happy with. The servo may be viewed as a gimmick by some but it adds structural integrity I hope that both manufacturers (as well as Accurascale) find a solution to this problem as it is a shame when an important detail detracts from the rest of a good model Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NIRCLASS80 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) I think the best thing any small manufacturer could do is if they have confidence in the product they are going to produce, and can fund the development of it, is keep silent until its on the ship from China! Therefore the competition has no time to react! Edited January 8, 2020 by NIRCLASS80 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Phil Parker Posted January 8, 2020 Administrators Share Posted January 8, 2020 35 minutes ago, scumcat said: Could you not of got one off Hornby under warranty when it broke? Your retailer is responsible, you should take it back to them rather than going to the manufacturer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Grimleygrid Posted January 8, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted January 8, 2020 Happy New Year! Following this weeks news we have emailed all customers that have pre-ordered our Class 91 locomotive. We will be posting a project update in the next week or so. Thank you very much to everyone that has supported our projects so far - we really appreciate the support. 22 1 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BR(S) Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Sent my reply: still supporting the project for my complete pre-order of sound-eqipped 91, rake of Mk4s and DVT 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hal Nail Posted January 8, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, scumcat said: It’s the funding of the development that seems to be the problem. Indeed. You go to a bank and ask for a loan to develop a state of the art model and the bank says "what happens if Hornby announce it?". You confidently say "well then there's always the Fell*". Funnily enough the bank arent keen so crowdfunding happens. *we need a new never gonna happen model. Those 7mm clay hoods I've always wanted? Edited January 8, 2020 by Hal Nail Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin Brady Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 Good Evening, I've also sent my reply with continued support for this project. Good Luck Benjamin 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60800 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Grimleygrid said: Happy New Year! Following this weeks news we have emailed all customers that have pre-ordered our Class 91 locomotive. We will be posting a project update in the next week or so. Thank you very much to everyone that has supported our projects so far - we really appreciate the support. Happy new year to the team too. It's great to hear something so soon and for it to be positive, but realistic news at that. I've sent my reply too, as I would very much like the 91119 and 91116 I have ordered and keep the prospect of a company giving us a full set. Cheers, 60800 Edited January 8, 2020 by 60800 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris37422 Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 To echo the above, I’ve also replied to say I hope the project continues and that I look forward to receiving my 2 Cavalex 91’s in the near future. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Scottish-Exile Posted January 8, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 8, 2020 Really hope this project goes ahead. Sold my Hornby Battle of Britain livery a couple of weeks ago in anticipation of the Cavalex models being released. Will be after said Battle of Britain and For the Fallen as display models and the Flying Scotsman and full take of Mk4 to run. Was told at Warley that the new liveries would be on the website early December. Been checking frequently but not listed yet. So if there are others like me wanting these special liveries, then that's a lot of people who are interested in buying models but have not been able to order/express interest on the website yet. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oleander Posted January 8, 2020 Share Posted January 8, 2020 I sent my reply with a big yes please. I would like to go for a second class 91 Flying Scotsman. But that was not avaible to pre order. I have asked Cavalex hopfull that can be added. If so It will be an expensive year John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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