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All new RTR Class 91 and Mark 4 carriages


Grimleygrid
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8 hours ago, letterspider said:

 

Thanks but this is second hand and so that isn't an option

The second problem is what happens when the retailer has no replacement?

 

If it's new, it still has to go back to the retailer who will then send it back to the manufacturer, or at least take matters up on your behalf.

 

Second hand will have been "sold as seen" so still technically not going to be the manufacturers problem. You could go to court and argue the case, (How long is a model expected to last?) but I doubt it would be worth it. At this point a polite enquiry might work, or you are in the hands of someone like Peter's Spares who offer an excellent service. After that it's into the aftermarket world to see if anyone makes an alternative.

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15 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

The common part of the argument about Hornby treading on others toes,  is that the competitors chose something that had already been produced by Hornby and could very easily be produced by them again.  

 

Do people honestly expect Hornby to just stand aside while competitors cherry pick from their back catalogue?  It's Just business, nothing else.

The poignant part to mention is crowdfunding or pre-paid. It is not the commissioner taking 100% risk to go head to head with Hornby... its you the customer taking a bet that you can get collectively can “get one over” on Hornby... comissioners are just making it for you, take a cut and forever own the tooling.


imagine if DJ hadn't popped last year... and now be at stage 3 deposit on the APT..wouldn't the forum be a happy place today... There was lots of gripes about the class 92 being triplicated.

 

What stops mk4’s being announced by Hornby in July ?


if someone wants to use their own money to double up on an duplicating anothers existing tool good for them. When its released i’ll decide which to buy on its merits.. 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, adb968008 said:


imagine if DJ hadn't popped last year... and now be at stage 3 deposit on the APT..wouldn't the forum be a happy place today

Well Hornby would have lost all those already as they’d be committed, so likely Hornby would have been the one to suffer. 
 

Cavalex strongly suspected this was coming and the quiet isn’t a problem if you’ve ordered as they have emails. What they put out in public is sensibly less instructive to Hornby ;) 

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On 07/01/2020 at 06:10, MGR Hooper! said:


Agree with you!

I've got Class 91s from both companies on order.

I think you could actually be hurting both companies there, as it splits the revenues... unless you thing demand is so big that if everyone did a split both companies could still make money.

 

when you look at duplications in the market place at the same time, the track record of results isnt good..

 

B1 Bachmann / Hornby

4MT Bachmann / Hornby

Radial Oxford / Hornby

71 DJ / Hornby

J94 DJ/Hornby

1366 Kernow/Heljan

 

all of these failed to sell out and saw bargain basement pricing.

even historically the Hornby & Lima 92’s were in bargain bins.

 

but to give balance, I can think of a few successful duplications of similar quality toolings...

 

60163 vs 60163

Hornby and Lima HST 

Pendolino (Dapol / Hornby)

Class 08 Lima /Hornby, Hornby & Bachmann

Jinty (Bachmann / Hornby)

A4 (Bachmann & Hornby) - Maybe Dapol will downgrade theres to a normal spec too someday ?


But is the 91 really as popular as these ?

 

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24 minutes ago, PaulRhB said:

Well Hornby would have lost all those already as they’d be committed, so likely Hornby would have been the one to suffer. 
 

Cavalex strongly suspected this was coming and the quiet isn’t a problem if you’ve ordered as they have emails. What they put out in public is sensibly less instructive to Hornby ;) 


Actually it would be you the customer who lost, as your locked in to a model, you havent yet seen, but now have a much cheaper one, with a better known brand to look at too... I found the Hornby 71 which cost less, arrived earlier, much better than the DJ one, which was prepaid earlier and devalued much faster.

 

Rails were somewhat protected from Hornbys Terrier, as pre-orders had taken a deposit, being almost equal to the price difference of the cheaper Hornby one... customers are locked in.

 

Its an individuals choice, if Cavalex proceed, best of luck i’ll look at it when released and may buy one then, but not at the moment, ive made the same decision with regard to the 25/37/45/47/Terriers/Mogul/Princess.. The quality of models in 2020 is little in doubt... loyalty gets you nothing, pre-paid doesnt either. As a consumer you cant change how manufacturers think, I dont like duplications - it keeps my wallet shut, for much longer...but it does mean you can play the game to consumer choice rules, not just what Manufacturers want you to think.

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32 minutes ago, adb968008 said:


Actually it would be you the customer who lost, as your locked in to a model, you havent yet seen, but now have a much cheaper one, with a better known brand to look at too...

My point was that Hornby would have lost out because they were already locked in to the other so would continue with it regardless of the unknown’s. 

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4 hours ago, adb968008 said:


Actually it would be you the customer who lost, as your locked in to a model, you havent yet seen, but now have a much cheaper one, with a better known brand to look at too... 

 

Its an individuals choice, if Cavalex proceed, best of luck i’ll look at it when released and may buy one then, but not at the moment, ive made the same decision with regard to the 25/37/45/47/Terriers/Mogul/Princess..  loyalty gets you nothing, pre-paid doesnt either. As a consumer you cant change how manufacturers think, I dont like duplications - it keeps my wallet shut, for much longer...but it does mean you can play the game to consumer choice rules, not just what Manufacturers want you to think.

 

The problem is that we don't know whether a new Hornby 91 would have happened if Cavalex hadn't announced their 91 or whether they would have carried on selling the existing Hornby 91.

 

Secondly on the issue of pre-paying etc - loyalty and pre-paying may well get you a discounted price (in my view it should) and secondly without it some models might not happen.

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20 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

For me there is a pattern developing here from Hornby as they appear to go after the smaller players within the locomotive area but keep clear of the bigger boys like Bachmann, Heljan, Hatton's & Accurascale (already established in Ireland & really growing in the UK) and the reason I say this because why haven't they announced re-tooled models of the following which have been with them in basic form for a tremendous amount of time and one could argue regarded as one of theirs?

1. Class 90 (new from Bachmann)

2. Class 92 (new from Accurascale)

3. Class 37 (new from Accurascale)

4. Class 47 (new from Heljan, mind you there is time on this one)

5. Class 66 (new from Hatton's)

6. Have I missed any others?

But you see from the above another pattern that has emerged where they won't dare go up against these companies & re-tool but will slap every livery known to man on their RailRoad versions to try to syphon sales away from them.

It's easy going after Cavalex and probably DJ Models if he was still around hence the good point made by Trains4U but you can read into it in whatever way you will and yes I think Hornby have adopted an aggressive business policy against their competitors based on 'oh that model belongs to us' type of crap which a few contributors have already mentioned in various threads but they appear to be selective to whom they go up against.

 

 

‘The class 90 and 92 I would suggest that Hornby were in no position to respond....I’m pretty sure we were all discussing if Hornby would go bankrupt at the time these models were poached off them.... 

 

I would guess the Hornby class 37 was never the target for accurascale... Bachmann was there target....  Hornby with there basic railroad class 37, has the lower end of the market to themselves.... remember we used to have a choice of vitrains and Bachmann for the detailed options.... 

 

same for the class 47, Hornby basic railroad model, for better detailed options we had the choice of Helijan, vitrains and Bachmann... only one of these detailed options survived...

 

class 66 , the target for hattons is the Bachmann 66, not the Hornby one....

 

‘’so I’ll wager that the Hornby models will be around  longer than some of the new higher detailed models that are on the horizon, and the reason that Hornby isn’t going after the big boys, is simply because their exisiting models are aimed at a different market....  I’d guess that the class 91 market isn’t big enough for two different models to be viable hence the reason we now have Hornby responding

 

what about last years Hornby Mk2f?  Is that not directly going up against Bachmann?

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37 minutes ago, RBE said:

Hi all and a happy new year.

 

I do not wish to address the Hornby issue at this point, we will do that next week when we have taken stock with our official statement. However I would like to address some comments on here regarding Cavalex in general.

 

Sailing close to the wind here I will start off by saying that the class 91 project was not entered into lightly, research was undertaken well before we announced our intentions and our money has been spent for information and laser scans so we have taken a degree of risk before asking anyone else to be involved.

 

With that out of the way I feel that I have to clarify again our position with regard to 'crowdfinding'. It is unfortunate that the issues faced by customers of DJM have marred the experience and spoiled the potential that the format has to offer for other companies such as ourselves and the modelling community in general. The allowance for the customer to put his money where his mouth is to bring models to market that the main manufacturers would never look at is a powerful tool and one that seems a perfect fit for our company.

 

As we have always maintained, we are modellers ourselves and want nothing more than to provide the very highest quality and detailled models of locos and rolling stock that the modelling community wants. In order to do that we need to grow as a company with the support of the modelling community behind us and as much transparency at all stages in the project. Up to this point I think that we have acheived that for better or worse, no one is buying into something that they have never seen and in all cases should be able to follow at every stage of the process.

 

With regard to risk we are about minimising it for all people involved us and customers alike. Due to the nature of the projects that we are keen to undertake (models that are currently being ignored by the big manufacturers) we naturally need some kind of indication that the sales of these products are going to be fruitful. Asking for a pre order commitment is a way of ensuring that.

 

As our company does all of its design work in house we do not need to secure funds at the design stage and as such will only ask for money at the point where enough pre orders have been secured to make the project worthwhile and the tooling it about to be cut. If we ask you to pay then you will be seeing a model produced. All monies taken are spent on that project. We do not cross fund with other projects.


Whilst we apreciate the concerns of some individuals who have had a bad experience with other companies we are at heart trying to make this hobby better by bringing models to market that a) The community wants and b) to a standard previously unseen in british RTR. In order to do that we need your support and mutual trust.


Whether people wish to support us or not is of course their decision and their entitlement also, however we would like people to judge us on our merits and their own experience in dealing with us as a company and not be swayed by the opinions of others that have been stung previously by other companies with no experience of dealing with ours.


Both myself and Alex have a great passion for railway modelling and for things being right. We apply that to all of our models and we apply that to how we treat customers and competitor alike. That comes above all else.


Again thank you to everyone who has supported us so far in making Cavalex what it is today.


Regards
Cav

 

I don't think a comparison with DJM is fair - the attitude and communication from yourselves is streets ahead from theirs.

 

Whether there is still  a reluctance to crowdfund as a result I don't know, but there is no comparison in my eyes.

 

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22 minutes ago, Bucoops said:

 

I don't think a comparison with DJM is fair - the attitude and communication from yourselves is streets ahead from theirs.

 

Whether there is still  a reluctance to crowdfund as a result I don't know, but there is no comparison in my eyes.

 

 

You guys are also making visible progress!!! ... keep it up! :)

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21 hours ago, classy52 said:

 

For me there is a pattern developing here from Hornby as they appear to go after the smaller players within the locomotive area but keep clear of the bigger boys like Bachmann, Heljan, Hatton's & Accurascale (already established in Ireland & really growing in the UK) and the reason I say this because why haven't they announced re-tooled models of the following which have been with them in basic form for a tremendous amount of time and one could argue regarded as one of theirs?

1. Class 90 (new from Bachmann)

2. Class 92 (new from Accurascale)

3. Class 37 (new from Accurascale)

4. Class 47 (new from Heljan, mind you there is time on this one)

5. Class 66 (new from Hatton's)

6. Have I missed any others?

But you see from the above another pattern that has emerged where they won't dare go up against these companies & re-tool but will slap every livery known to man on their RailRoad versions to try to syphon sales away from them.

It's easy going after Cavalex and probably DJ Models if he was still around hence the good point made by Trains4U but you can read into it in whatever way you will and yes I think Hornby have adopted an aggressive business policy against their competitors based on 'oh that model belongs to us' type of crap which a few contributors have already mentioned in various threads but they appear to be selective to whom they go up against.

 

Probably also the Bachmann Class 101 which duplicated the Limby one without response from Hornby

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5 hours ago, RBE said:

...bringing models to market that a) The community wants and b) to a standard previously unseen in british RTR.


Both myself and Alex have a great passion for railway modelling and for things being right. We apply that to all of our models and we apply that to how we treat customers and competitor alike. That comes above all else.


I’m confident these reasons will set CavAlex's models apart from any other, including those of the same prototype. I for one am excited for the models, which is more than can be said for any announcements by some larger manufacturers, as CavAlex know what modellers want; they’re as excited as we are! Being able to produce my wish list of models to RTR, factory finished quality whilst including each and every feature I want, and also providing them to us like-minded modellers appears (to me) to be the dream job.

 

I'm a self-confessed stickler for accuracy and prototypical operation, and having discussed the models with the team, I’m sure the lads will not fail to impress. I wish them every success with the project, and commend them for going ahead with it in light of developments from a much bigger company. I truly hope the effort and determination to please us discerning modellers pays off.

 

Jack.

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I'm still going with Cavalex.  I've got to say that I'm very impressed with the photo of the model on Grimleygrid's post on Wednesday.  An excellent rendition of the real thing.

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2 minutes ago, scumcat said:

...in light of your quoted comment don’t you think this statement is a bit naive to say that a big manufacturer would not look at the Class 91...


I don’t believe Cav has said they thought no one would redo the 91. I spoke to the lads at Warley and they mentioned then that they wouldn’t be surprised if Hornby did redo it, which turned out to be correct. From my point of view, we’ll see very different models produced. Unless Hornby have something up their sleeve (doubtful), a tried and tested recipe will be followed and may have a few deviations - such as Bachmann with their operating pantograph. Take that away from their model, and you have the same, tried and tested, recipe as always used that will reap their returns.

 

I think the naivety from some is assuming two very similar products will be produced. I for one (as mentioned previously) think there will be a vast difference between the level of innovation and accuracy developed into Cav and Alex's models, which Hornby would not spend precious time looking into. CavAlex however, are driven by accuracy and this I propose is the crux of the above statement; that no big manufacturer could afford - monetarily or otherwise - to drive innovation in return for not just hard cash but true progress in the hobby.

 

I should mention that I’m in no way affiliated with CavAlex other than knowing them personally as modellers and respecting their commitment to deliver models that our community want.

 

Jack.

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3 minutes ago, Jack374 said:

CavAlex however, are driven by accuracy and this I propose is the crux of the above statement; that no big manufacturer could afford - monetarily or otherwise - to drive innovation in return for not just hard cash but true progress in the hobby.

 

Rapido already do, admittedly a limited UK offering so far but there is no doubt the Stirling Single is one  (if not 'THE') most accurate and innovative models for a long time.

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Just to add my 2 pence worth, I am sticking with my Cavalex order too. Some new players in the field should be encouraged, so as to shake up the status quo. Railroad quality models at top-spec price points should not be a thing!

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19 hours ago, Andy Mac said:

 

 

‘The class 90 and 92 I would suggest that Hornby were in no position to respond....I’m pretty sure we were all discussing if Hornby would go bankrupt at the time these models were poached off them.... 

 

I would guess the Hornby class 37 was never the target for accurascale... Bachmann was there target....  Hornby with there basic railroad class 37, has the lower end of the market to themselves.... remember we used to have a choice of vitrains and Bachmann for the detailed options.... 

 

same for the class 47, Hornby basic railroad model, for better detailed options we had the choice of Helijan, vitrains and Bachmann... only one of these detailed options survived...

 

class 66 , the target for hattons is the Bachmann 66, not the Hornby one....

 

‘’so I’ll wager that the Hornby models will be around  longer than some of the new higher detailed models that are on the horizon, and the reason that Hornby isn’t going after the big boys, is simply because their exisiting models are aimed at a different market....  I’d guess that the class 91 market isn’t big enough for two different models to be viable hence the reason we now have Hornby responding

 

what about last years Hornby Mk2f?  Is that not directly going up against Bachmann?

 

I don't model the Class 91but this is a very interesting thread. I  certainly want to see more manufacturers in the market place, otherwise the big players will get lazy and keep churning out models from tired moulds. I don't think there will be much of  competition here. The Hornby model is likely to have an 8 pin dcc socket and I think we will have a surprise announcement in Q2 for the first electric train tts sound decoders for the 87, 91 and 92

that they may hope will drive sales of all of these classes

However in the end that 8 pin socket will limit how sophisticated the electronics of that model can be and therefore Mr S.K. I am sure is happy to leave Cavalex to attract the more demanding modeller with deeper pockets

I just don't see Hornby will get away with this unless their model costs a lot less.

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