Jump to content
 

All new RTR Class 91 and Mark 4 carriages


Grimleygrid
 Share

Recommended Posts

  • RMweb Gold

Sorry to hear that, I’d put in my order in the hope of helping it on but it does show Hornby were worried it was good enough that they felt they had to do the Hattons & Rail’s slam on Cavalex too. 
Hornby can’t keep relying on their Brand and churning out lower spec models or they will start to lose position. 
Definitely a moral victory and graceful step down. Sorry you’ve lost money and time on this guys. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

While Rails & Hattons have a bit more financial muscle to take on Hornby I doubt Cavalex do, so no doubt as intended by Hornby they will be reluctant to take on another that they will stomp on. I can understand protecting your range but it does smell a bit to leave it until they were so far along and then show obviously rushed prints. 
I’m torn as Hornby needed and we wanted them to up their game but they better produce a corker or they are going to look even crappier for doing it like this. 

Link to post
Share on other sites

Is there the potential to still produce the MK4's, but accompanied by the class 89? At least two if not three potential liveries for it and those buying Hornby 91's will be snapping Cavalex's hands off for the rolling stock.

 

Cheers,

  60800 

  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

Cav and Alex, whilst I don’t want to tell you how to run your business, I think it’s not the best decision you could make. Off the back of out conversation at Warley, the Hornby version isn’t anywhere near the standard you have set, and now they will clean up, with a model that’s not as good. Competition is healthy, and I personally feel that you’re on a sound footing with the 225, and the coaches to go with it. It takes a lot to impress me and there’s a lot to be said for smaller companies who really DO make a difference. I still think there’s a lot of mileage in this project, but it’s obviously too big a gamble for you.

 

keep the faith.

Mike 

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

Cavalex's loss will not be Hornby's gain as far as I am concerned; I wanted a class 91 but not if it is going to be a half-hearted effort designed only to scupper the competition.  Unless Hornby produce something spectacular it will be companies like Accurascale who will get the money I was planning to spend on the Cavalex 225 - unless Cavalex themselves come up with something else I am interested in of course - then they would get first shout!

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, scoobyra said:

Cav and Alex, whilst I don’t want to tell you how to run your business, I think it’s not the best decision you could make. Off the back of out conversation at Warley, the Hornby version isn’t anywhere near the standard you have set, and now they will clean up, with a model that’s not as good. Competition is healthy, and I personally feel that you’re on a sound footing with the 225, and the coaches to go with it. It takes a lot to impress me and there’s a lot to be said for smaller companies who really DO make a difference. I still think there’s a lot of mileage in this project, but it’s obviously too big a gamble for you.

 

keep the faith.

Mike 

 

I am also a sci-fi kit builder; a few years back a company called Round 2 in the US were being lobbied to produce a 1/350 scale model of the original Starship Enterprise from Star Trek.  They didn't know if it would be profitable or not. The solution they came up with was the "1701 Club" (1701 being the registry of the starship)  They asked people to place orders but did not begin production until they had 1701 orders in place.  The result was 1701 limited edition models but once the tooling had been made the standard version was available for anyone to buy (and it has been a hit ever since - I have two of them!)

 

Maybe Cavalex could do something similar - asking people to commit a certain percentage of funding up front until they get enough orders to completely fill the production run.

 

I am sure they have thought of all kinds of variations on this - it is not all that different from the process they describe on their own website - but I agree with Mike here - anyone who cares about getting a nicely detailed Class 91 will not buy the Hornby one, esepcially if it isn't nearly up to the Cavalex spec; and the people who don't care about the detailing are already buying the existing Hornby one and would not be likely to pay more for the Cavalex version anyway.  I don't think Cavalex will lose sales if they go ahead.

 

But for us on a forum it is only talk - for them it is potential financial disaster; they already have something nice going and I can understand why they would not want to risk all they have achieved so far by going up against Hornby on this.

 

Maybe if the Hornby version doesn't turn out to be a hit Cavalex can revisit this in a couple of years' time?

 

Edited by cwam
  • Like 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, berwicksfinest said:

More over how about an 86 !!! That'll really get back at Hornby

 

I think a 43 would be a good one to do, for what little I know about it. Anywhere in the country pretty much for the last 40 years can work with one. 2 models for every sale out of the tooling so a faster payback. Only thing is the Hornby one is quite good and they would no doubt be very cutthroat about it.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Sad news - I have no vested interest other than in an N gauge 91+mk4, but I was hoping the OO project would be a success for them to help pave the way for the N gauge version.

 

Hornby apparently stamping on competition (as an impartial bystander, it certainly looks more than circumstantial in this instance) is simply not good for the hobby generally.... so much for the free market economy. Very disappointing all around really.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

I think people need to step back and take stock. Cavalex has made a brave decision . It’s money and livelihood here , not a hobby to them .  The issue is that Hornby’s 91 might not be as good as the potential Cavalex one , but likelihood is it will be good enough to limit potential sales of the Cavalex model .  It’s not a case of doing an 86 to get back at Hornby or just doing an 89 instead . These things have to be properly thought out and an adaquate business case made. 

 

But it really Hornby it does leave a bitter taste . And we need mk4s

Edited by Legend
  • Like 2
  • Agree 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I wasn’t in the market for a 91, I’m sad that Cavalex have been worried to such an extent by Hornby’s plan that they won’t be progressing with the project. I can see why you would have second thoughts about it, as it’s a large initial outlay of money. You’re money. Not the modellers (yet). Any project is a gamble but as soon as Hornby made their announcement, that gamble suddenly got a lot larger. But I think you would have done alright if you had stuck with it. A high fidelity model like you was planning would have its own market and Hornby’s (I would anticipate lower spec 91) would have their own market. A bit like Hattons class 66, Bachmann class 66 and Hornby class 66. And because you were doing the whole lot, MK 4, DVT and Loco, I’d guessed you would have faired far better than Hornby. Who would want a 91 by itself? 
But I totally understand your decision, as Hornby could announce anytime that by the way, new tool MK4’s and 82/2 DVT are planned also. That would have left you in a precarious position. One I’d not want your great little outfit to face. Take stock, reflect and go again with a new project, and hopefully no one would scupper your plans for that. Good luck for the future lads.
66738

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
13 minutes ago, JR_P said:

...so much for the free market economy. 

It's the "free market economy" that allows such things to happen.  It may appear brutal and harsh. but that's business...   Any mechanism which might give small manufacturers some protection from the "big boys" isn't a "free market"...

 

A disappointing but entirely understandable decision from Cavalex. 

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 7
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold

I’ve just heard about the decision to pull the plug on the 4mm Class 91 and Mk4’s and I have to say, I’m saddened by the decision but perfectly understandable.  Having said that, I wonder if Hornby have now no option to do a extra “full fat” version knowing that if theirs doesn’t come up to scratch, Cavalex could come back into the fray with their superb models and steal Hornby’s thunder.

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing to consider in this sad news, the Mk4 coaches will be getting new lives on the Gerald from Caergybi to Caerdydd, and apparently on the Euston to Blackpool Grand Central open access services from the Spring (allegedly) shoved by GC liveried Class 90s, so there may be some justification in continuing with the Mk4 coaches, especially as all the work has been done on development.  The Mk4 will shortly therefore be more widespread, with 67 traction in Wales and the borders, and 90 traction up the WCML.  I doubt even if Hornby are developing a super detail Mk4 (and their track record on post kettle coaching stock is best politely described as "patchy") they will be in any rush to release GC and TfW liveried examples.

It might allow you to get some return on the investment made so far.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, 66738 said:

 A high fidelity model like you was planning would have its own market and Hornby’s (I would anticipate lower spec 91) would have their own market. A bit like Hattons class 66, Bachmann class 66 and Hornby class 66. 

 

The comparison to a class 66 is incorrect. I highly doubt there’s would have been a market for two class 91s. By contrast, 66s travel all over the country, 91s are confined to the ECML. There are so many trains that manufacturers deem unprofitable for even one model version, let alone two.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 5
Link to post
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, scoobyra said:

Cav and Alex, whilst I don’t want to tell you how to run your business, I think it’s not the best decision you could make. Off the back of out conversation at Warley, the Hornby version isn’t anywhere near the standard you have set, and now they will clean up, with a model that’s not as good.

 

With a list price of £180 it is to be expected the Hornby model will be a high end model.

 

Yes, it may/likely not be as good as what Cavelex could do, but that it not really relevant - what is relevant is that the Hornby name will ensure that Hornby will take a lot of the potential sales, and that reduced size of market for Cavelex sadly is what has apparently made the market too small for them to risk taking the project forward.

 

2 hours ago, scoobyra said:

Competition is healthy,

 

Competition is merely a word, and one that requires context.

 

Competition for a Class 37/47/66 all make sense as the prospective market for models of those prototypes is large enough that the sales can support multiple competitors.

 

The overhead electric market is a small subset of the overall market.  The market for a Class 91 is an even smaller subset of the overhead electric market given they have only run in a limited area.

 

It is (sadly) unlikely that the market can support two higher end Class 91 models.

 

2 hours ago, scoobyra said:

and I personally feel that you’re on a sound footing with the 225, and the coaches to go with it.

 

If you, or anyone else, is really that convinced then put your money on the line - I am sure if someone showed up with the say £100,000 to pay for the model to continue they would reconsider.

 

But as long as it is their money being risked what any particular individual thinks doesn't matter - they are the ones with experience in the market and thus their decision needs to be respected.

 

 

  • Agree 6
Link to post
Share on other sites

This could go many ways but is of course music to Hornbys ears and thus have to hope might mean green lights all the way now for them to do MK4's. The caution they were showing due to the potential competition is now gone and have the full market to themselves. If not then it could mean we are stuck with just a high spec loco.

 

On a flip side now Hornby have stopped the competition they might consider that they now dictate the pace so  we might not see any particular speed on getting the MK'4s done, especially with the demanding wider schedule they have currently set themselves.

 

PS I am reading between lines but I assume a lot of the pre-orders must have fallen away and is the reason for the dropping of project 225 or they just looked at the potential worst case going forwards thus pulled to play it safe. I know some buyers still remember DJ Models all too well and with Hornby now weakening things to some degree they fear what may have come if Cavalex had progressed and say this summer Hornby then announced MK4's, maybe some thus walked/became cautious at laying out cash upfront. I know Cavalex have been aware of potential rumblings on the Hornby 91 for some months and when the question has been raised towards them (at least on the surfaces) they showed little fear. I do feel really sorry for the guys for all their effort and expense going to waste 4mm wise. Hopefully all/most can be recovered with the 2mm version.

Edited by sanspareil
  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

36 minutes ago, sanspareil said:

This could go many ways but is of course music to Hornbys ears and thus have to hope might mean green lights all the way now for them to do MK4's. The caution they were showing due to the potential competition is now gone and have the full market to themselves. If not then it could mean we are stuck with just a high spec loco.

 

You could always ask all those people waiting for a modern tooled Mk3...

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

Whilst the 91 is perhaps slightly niche, can any smaller manufacturer really afford to invest in any new model given the likely reaction?

 

There are eventually limits to how much Hornby can tool up in any given year.

  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, 66738 said:

Although I wasn’t in the market for a 91, I’m sad that Cavalex have been worried to such an extent by Hornby’s plan that they won’t be progressing with the project. I can see why you would have second thoughts about it, as it’s a large initial outlay of money. You’re money. Not the modellers (yet).


From memory when I placed my expressions of interest, it was the modellers who would have been putting up 50% as a deposit and the other 50% before production would commence,  So as far as I could see, we the modellers would have been financing the majority of this project.

  • Like 1
  • Agree 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...