Coal for brake van stoves

[Oldddudders]

Getting the flask off the road on the Chatham Dockyard branch was a fairly regular event, ISTR. Fortunately I was never involved. 

[sf315]

We’re all stoves in the vans the same 

or were they different in say a toad or an LMS ones or any others that lasted into BR days in revenue or departmental use. 

Thanks for the replies 

Steve. 

[Steamport Southport]

7 minutes ago, sf315 said:

We’re all stoves in the vans the same 

or were they different in say a toad or an LMS ones or any others that lasted into BR days in revenue or departmental use. 

Thanks for the replies 

Steve. 

 

I don't know about them all being "exactly" the same, but they very were similar and probably bought off the shelf. There were many thousands of them and they were used in huts as well.

 

Photo on this page.

 

https://preservation.watercressline.co.uk/blog/entry/wagon-group-report-9th-august-2016

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

By the 70s, when the bulk of vans remaining in service were BR standard and LMS 20 tonners, the same stove appeared in all of them, round, conical, drop door in the front, and a recess on the top for your tea can.  This will be the stove featured in most preserved brake vans.  The few LNER 20 tonners still around, virtually indistinguishable on the outside from the BR standard design derived from them, had slightly larger square bodied stoves, also with a slight taper, but a flat top and opening hatch in the top as well as the door in the side, which IIRC was side hinged.  They were embossed LNER on the top.

 

I only ever once rode in a Queen Mary, and cannot recall what sort of stove there was in that, but I assume it would be the same as the ones in Southern Railway 'B' and 'BY' passenger vans with stoves, and I can't now remember what they were now either!  I have no idea what the stove in an LMS 'Stove' BZ was.

 

For 4mm modelling purposes, worth doing if you are modelling the van with the door open so you can see inside, a piece of round plastic kit sprue about 2.5mm diameter cut to about 6mm length with a piece of bent wire coming out of the back to represent the stove pipe will probably do the job, painted oxidised black.  

 

There were no fire irons; perhaps there had been once but pool vans put paid to that sort of thing.  We handled the red hot doors with work gloves on, and were quick about it, and threw the coal on by hand. Any poking was done with the shunting pole.  I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one of these stoves now as I reckon it would make a bl**dy good patio heater!

[SED Freightman]

On 09/03/2019 at 21:01, Mike Storey said:

 

I did not know about flask movements from Chatham dockyard - when were these? was it when the subs were still maintained there?

 

There was (and I think they continued, and may even still run, for all I know, because the plant is still in operation, although apparently mostly ship-served now, from my links with a Sheppey History site) a fairly regular movement of condemned stock to Queenborough Shipbreakers (under another name now), and many of these wagons and occasionally old EMU's and odd stock, were unbraked (even if they had fitted brakes in service). In the 1980's, they all needed CAB's (BV's) which piled up at Queenborough Yard until a special move to rid us of them. Did these not continue after that?

 

 

The Chatham Dockyard flask movements were operated infrequently in connection with the re-fuelling of nuclear subs, trains always operated as a special movement with an armed escort and were generally destined to Sellafield.

 

I cannot recall any special movements of unfitted stock to Queenborough (that's not to say they did not occur), were the vehicles perhaps conveyed on normal services with the addition of a brakevan when necessary ?  Sadly, the Shipbreakers Railway and Queenborough Rolling Mills (laterly Istil Ltd) are now history.  I do remember that we operated a couple of unfitted block trains, with brakevan,  per week from Temple Mills (or perhaps Acton) to Ashford Works as the staff were kept occupied cutting condemned wagons for a while prior to closure.  As regular unfitted trains had ceased some years earlier on the SED, the guards on these trains were volunteers !

 

[spikey]

I have no idea why I started reading through this thread, but I'm jolly glad I did.  Who would have thought that life in a brake van could be so interesting?

 

It's also reminded me of a rare sight once spotted on the way from Boston to Grimsby (back in the days when you could do that by train) -  a long coal train moving slowly away along a diverging track, with guard nonchalantly piddling off the back of the BV ...

[The Johnster]

Nonchalantly was the best way to do it, spikey.  I once found myself in need of micturation on a run from Gloucester back to Cardiff, and went out on the balcony to perform the necessary.  I started just before the gradient leading up to Tutshill Junction (for the Wye Valley branch and still open for limestone  quarry traffic at the time).  But I'd badly misjudged the time required to complete the business in hand, and was still performing as we ran across Chepstow Bridge, an arc of the stuff glistening in the setting sun as it fell gracefully to the river below, in full view of the population of that rather picturesque little town.

 

My shame was not yet complete, though; Chepstow down platform had what looked to me like the worlds largest ever gathering of the sweetest little old ladies imaginable populating it, all of whom were witness to my little shortcomings; I just couldn't stop!  I was expecting a call into the office when I booked on the following day, but apparently none of them had complained; probably hadn't noticed, but my embarrassment was pretty total at the time!

 

Why hadn't I done it on the other side of the van so I'd be facing away from the platform?  Because of the possibility of blow back from passing trains, and of course for all I knew the up platform would have been full of schoolgirls, which would have been even worse...

[Trog]

Years ago we were doing engineering work in Watford tunnel which is about a mile long, one of the guards had the stove burning in his van and was filling the tunnel with smoke. When asked to stop he refused so one of the gang put a rail pad over the top of the chimney so he would know what it felt like to work in a smoky environment. Apparently his language left much to be desired when he emerged from the van a few minutes later.

[sf315]

20 hours ago, spikey said:

I have no idea why I started reading through this thread, but I'm jolly glad I did.  Who would have thought that life in a brake van could be so interesting?

 

It's also reminded me of a rare sight once spotted on the way from Boston to Grimsby (back in the days when you could do that by train) -  a long coal train moving slowly away along a diverging track, with guard nonchalantly piddling off the back of the BV ...

Yes it’s become a good read about the goings on in brake vans. I only wanted to know where they got the coal from to keep warm with. 

Thanks everyone who has contributed 

steve. 

[kevinlms]

2 hours ago, sf315 said:

Yes it’s become a good read about the goings on in brake vans. I only wanted to know where they got the coal from to keep warm with. 

Thanks everyone who has contributed 

steve. 

Here's one from Australia.

 

A mate of mine used to be a 2nd man on the Victorian Railways. One day the loco crew got into the guards van and stoked up the fire as much as possible. What the guard didn't realise when he entered, was that the rest of the inward opening doors had been tied up, as was the door that he'd just entered, so treated.

 

So off they go on their trip. When they got to their destination and let him out, the poor man was down to his undies, it was so hot in there.

 

Apparently, the air turned rather blue!

[CloggyDog]

On ‎10‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 21:02, The Johnster said:

For 4mm modelling purposes, worth doing if you are modelling the van with the door open so you can see inside, a piece of round plastic kit sprue about 2.5mm diameter cut to about 6mm length with a piece of bent wire coming out of the back to represent the stove pipe will probably do the job, painted oxidised black.  

 

Cool, so I got my 4mm one about right, complete with 'tray' for the coal 

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7832/32357820027_5b631b33f3_k.jpg[/img]IMG_20190303_115423 by Alan Monk, on Flickr

 

The 7mm Slaters 20t LMS road van comes with a neat casting for the stove, sadly it's all but invisible once the roof is glued on.

 

Back when I used to volunteer for the Class 20 Loco Soc at Butterly, the overnight accom for working parties on 20001/20227 was a pair of Society-owned brake vans, one LMS the other BR. The LMS one was preferred for it's longer cabin (so longer benches), fewer gaps in the planking and a 'better' stove. Provided there was even a light breeze, the draw would help make the van very toasty indeed. The BR one never seemed to get properly going and the wind would fair whistle through the planks. Eventually a Mk2c FK (ex Test Service Vehicle brake force runner) was obtained to replace the vans, not sure if the CTLS still owns them.

Edited March 26, 2019 by CloggyDog

[The Stationmaster]

22 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

Cool, so I got my 4mm one about right, complete with 'tray' for the coal 

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7832/32357820027_5b631b33f3_k.jpg[/img]IMG_20190303_115423 by Alan Monk, on Flickr

 

The 7mm Slaters 20t LMS road van comes with a neat casting for the stove, sadly it's all but invisible once the roof is glued on.

 

Back when I used to volunteer for the Class 20 Loco Soc at Butterly, the overnight accom for working parties on 20001/20227 was a pair of Society-owned brake vans, one LMS the other BR. The LMS one was preferred for it's longer cabin (so longer benches), fewer gaps in the planking and a 'better' stove. Provided there was even a light breeze, the draw would help make the van very toasty indeed. The BR one never seemed to get properly going and the wind would fair whistle through the planks. Eventually a Mk2c FK (ex Test Service Vehicle brake force runner) was obtained to replace the vans, not sure if the CTLS still owns them.

With a BR van you needed a lot of old newspaper - for dealing with the various cracks and gaps in the woodwork as a sort of caulking.  You could get BR vans very, very hot once you'd done that and then got the stove up to red heat.  It was suggested to me to climb up into one at Reading West Jcn one night just after the Acton Guard had decamped and the Yard Supervisor decided that I needed to broaden my horizons - it was like a sauna in there and the reiieving Guard left with the doors wide open at both ends of the van. (and the outdoor temperature was below freezing that night.

[The Johnster]

The stoves varied, despite being a standard item and no matter how much you clouted the pipe to shake the soot loose.  A good one could be made to run near white hot, and would have a wrinkle where the iron had softened and ‘settled’. 

 

I can can certainly confirm running with the back door open even in freezing conditions on occasion.  You wouldn’t go very far with the front door open, though!

[spikey]

15 hours ago, CloggyDog said:

 

Cool, so I got my 4mm one about right, complete with 'tray' for the coal 

 Very neat indeed.  But what's the hole in the floor for?  Enquiring minds need to know (unless of course we're better off not knowing ...)

[CloggyDog]

56 minutes ago, spikey said:

 Very neat indeed.  But what's the hole in the floor for?  Enquiring minds need to know (unless of course we're better off not knowing ...)

 

Handbrake standard (Wizard Models casting) 

Edited March 27, 2019 by CloggyDog

[spikey]

Ah, of course.  I kept thinking of those old carriages on Indian railways which had the little compartment at the end with the hole in the floor ...

[kevinlms]

19 minutes ago, spikey said:

Ah, of course.  I kept thinking of those old carriages on Indian railways which had the little compartment at the end with the hole in the floor ...

For track inspections no doubt!

[spikey]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

For track inspections no doubt!

 

I am reliably informed that for much of the time, it was best not to look down that hole.  And now I'm wondering whether or not to bring in the hilarious and rightly famous letter to Indian Railways written by Okhil Babu following his misfortune at Ahmedpur station. 

 

Oh, OK then ... https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/story/indian-railways-history-160-years-interesting-facts-180735-2014-02-12

 

 

[The Johnster]

On 08/03/2019 at 18:53, br2975 said:

train crew supervisor Alan (Crazy Horse) Lewis

I remember him!

[The Johnster]

On 27/03/2019 at 14:51, spikey said:

On 27/03/2019 at 10:45, kevinlms said:

 

 

I am reliably informed that for much of the time, it was best not to look down that hole. 

I have been to Glastonbury Festival; I know how bad an idea it is to look down the hole...

[petethemole]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I have been to Glastonbury Festival; I know how bad an idea it is to look down the hole...

You should have been to Weeley.  On second thoughts you were better off not....

[w124bob]

Starting my railway career at Coalville , brakevan coal was never an issue. Just get the Jocko driver to do a few rough shunts! I recall two drivers having official permission to pickup fallen coal, I seem to remember there being an official bit of paper especially for the purpose. I don't ever remember seeing a specific wagon set out for brakevan coal, the bunker next to the brakevan road was self filling!