BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Legend]

The 1/72 Victor was pretty much a wow kit! 

[Widnes Model Centre]

Just now, Legend said:

The 1/72 Victor was pretty much a wow kit! 

 

There have been plenty of wow kits in the recent past. The re-introduction of the Vintage kits is also proving to be a wow factor. Airfix has seen a resurgence in the past 12 months or so. The modellers at Telford Scale Model World were talking about their hopes for a re-tooled Vulcan. I hope that is high on the to do list. In any scale. I know as I have built the existing one.

 

Surprised it was only 14% of Turnover. Issue I see from a logistics point of view is low cost, high on storage space. That must put a bit of a premium on at the distribution centre.

[leavesontheline]

Interestingly, I found the Hornby website very slow this evening after the show - hopefully all the new-found customers they now have browsing their products?

[Andy Hayter]

Interesting that we were given a bit of a breakdown of the business with Airfix quoted as 15% of the business - I assume that means turnover rather than another metric.  It does show te importance of railways to the Hornby portfolio since neither Humbrol nor Scalextric could be above 10% (IMHO).

[Mike Storey]

2 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

Interesting that we were given a bit of a breakdown of the business with Airfix quoted as 15% of the business - I assume that means turnover rather than another metric.  It does show te importance of railways to the Hornby portfolio since neither Humbrol nor Scalextric could be above 10% (IMHO).

 

The last metric I recall, showed Hornby model railways at around 50% of the business, in turnover. I am not sure if this included Hornby International at the time.

[delticfan]

31 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

There have been plenty of wow kits in the recent past. The re-introduction of the Vintage kits is also proving to be a wow factor. Airfix has seen a resurgence in the past 12 months or so. The modellers at Telford Scale Model World were talking about their hopes for a re-tooled Vulcan. I hope that is high on the to do list. In any scale. I know as I have built the existing one.

 

Surprised it was only 14% of Turnover. Issue I see from a logistics point of view is low cost, high on storage space. That must put a bit of a premium on at the distribution centre.

Airfix kits are bringing some iconic childhood cold war jets up to date in terms of detail in 1/72 ie. Victor B1, Victor K2, Phanton FG1 and FGR2, Lightning F6, Harrier GR3 and soon Bucanneer S2, I think this is a real investment for the future in top notch kits as well as the nostalgic re runs. Hopefully Simon can get the railways back on the straight and narrow after some obvious shocking mis management which sadly is the trend in many businesses, with football style management where they hang around a couple of years then move onto the next disaster leaving a wake of destruction.

[ELTEL]

A most enjoyable program and nice to see the modeller represented, both railway modeller and plastic kit modller.

 

It has to be good for the hobby if Hornby is moving forward in a positive way and the winners have to be the modellers as well as Hornby.

 

As a modeller I attend the the Telford IPMS exhibition most years and the buzz around the exhibition on the Airfix announcement was electric.

 

A big thumbs up from me.

 

Eltel 

[Kelly]

Not sure what to think about that. It felt a bit disjointed and didn't really seem to look at the problems Hornby have faced, etc. Didn't really feel like something I'd expect on BBC4, but maybe that is jut me.

 

However, having said that, it was enjoyable enough and Simon's enthusiasm was clearly evident. Hopefully part 2 will answer some of the questions raised.

[adb968008]

Watching the show tonight, and the subsequent, I think the secret to success is to make “trains cool” again, to grow the market.

Thats a tough one for Hornby alone, the market needs to adopt it. TV like tonight is a big boost, as was the GMRC series, and recent BBC coverage of Model Rail Scotland.

 

my thoughts following the show took a little time to digest it and think about the different elements of the show that I saw,  but here’s what I thought..

 

mechanical hobbies seem to be on a roll, a “self assembly” type hobby is definitely something kids like, I’ve seen my own little one spend hours on a 5000 piece jigsaw, and dump the iPad, as well as a vast array of “lego friends” which are neither cheap nor fast to build.

 

Ask me 10 years ago, would I see girls being really interested in Lego I wouldn’t have believed it, but hundreds of pounds later my daughters all over it, there’s a whole range of product tailored to her interest.. dolls have no place here.

But it goes beyond this, you can buy 3D jigsaws, plastic & preprinted, numbered pieces, with features like clocks, lights etc within, and of course the “app” to use afterwards.. they are modern, detailed, easy to assemble, and painted.

 

so how does this relate to the show..

 

looking at the sound van, great innovation it is, I think they missed a trick, if it had it been Bluetooth, or Wi-fi, it could have introduced the “app” and been unlimited to thousands of sounds, including making / recording & mixing your own sounds, whilst the app might not make money, hours spent on some station could see the kid return to their wagon and continue to evolve their interest, it’s a value add that isn’t just “finished” like a Lego kit... for example the “cat” could be your own cat and it becomes personal.

 

Furthering that thought, a sense a 21st century element of cool “DIY” kit to railroad and sense of building a collection I am sure we relate to as a child... if a 600 piece Airfix kit of a plane sells, could this concept not go to model railways (albeit admittedly a paint finish of sorts is desirable)... a theme of rolling stock / loco kits that can be self-built to a subject... bit like the old airfix rail kits - just modern new toolings.

 

No mention has been made about Thomas in the show, first time I ever saw Thomas was probably late 1980s, and my layout was already 10+ years old, filled with Lima’s locos as depicted in Rail magazine. Thomas passed me by as irrelevant, so it’s loss isnt something I miss, though it’s a market in itself.

 

Promotion of clubs was strong, and indeed clubs could play a big future in the market, but we live in a world of less complication, it’s important that new comers to the hobby don’t see high cost and high complexity as barriers to entering the hobby, which is my draw on the points regarding modern kits, puzzles, Lego etc above.. its ease of use... you may be comfortable with a soldering iron, but new 20’something parents with an enthusiastic child may not be.

 

Although we’ve not had the “high drama” in episode 2, the class 66 is clearly a step in being relevant to today’s audience, and at a price that resonates to those those who could afford it and see it everyday... I wait to  see this, but I can’t help but feel both will ultimately win, Hattons to the modellers and a model to aspire to, and Hornby to the younger ones who can fill their boots, and isn’t growing the market and appealing to a younger age what it’s all about ?  - In That sense high drama is actually good publicity for both, and for the hobby.

 

Fascinating insight.

Edited March 7, 2019 by adb968008

[pete_mcfarlane]

43 minutes ago, delticfan said:

Airfix kits are bringing some iconic childhood cold war jets up to date in terms of detail in 1/72 ie. Victor B1, Victor K2, Phanton FG1 and FGR2, Lightning F6, Harrier GR3 and soon Bucanneer S2, I think this is a real investment for the future in top notch kits as well as the nostalgic re runs. Hopefully Simon can get the railways back on the straight and narrow after some obvious shocking mis management which sadly is the trend in many businesses, with football style management where they hang around a couple of years then move onto the next disaster leaving a wake of destruction.

I remember as a teenager in the early 90s trying to assemble a very crude Pegasus kits 1/72 Supermarine Swift - a low tech injection moulded kit of an obscure subject.

 

Nowadays Airfix do a state of the the art kit of this fairly obscure and pretty useless 1950 jet, which is available in pretty much every model shop in the land. My 16 year old self would be gobsmacked.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by pete_mcfarlane

[Kelly]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

 

looking at the sound van, great innovation it is, I think they missed a trick, if it had it been Bluetooth, or Wi-fi, it could have introduced the “app” and been unlimited to thousands of sounds, including making / recording & mixing your own sounds, whilst the app might not make money, hours spent on some station could see the kid return to their wagon and continue to evolve their interest, it’s a value add that isn’t just “finished” like a Lego kit... for example the “cat” could be your own cat and it becomes personal.

I agree it is something that could have 'legs' so to speak. Perhaps future releases will be modules to go in a station building, or maybe an engine shed, with appropriate sounds at a competitive price point.

 

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Furthering that thought, a sense a 21st century element of cool “DIY” kit to railroad and sense of building a collection I am sure we relate to as a child... if a 600 piece Airfix kit of a plane sells, could this concept not go to model railways (albeit admittedly a paint finish of sorts is desirable)... a theme of rolling stock / loco kits that can be self-built to a subject... bit like the old airfix rail kits - just modern new toolings.

 

 

Not sure how viable that might be with modern tooling methods. Airfix kits are iirc made in India rather than China now as they don't need the assembly and tampo printing which adds to the costs significantly (iirc, they found it didn't work when tried in India with model railway products).

[Pandora]

Part 2 next week,  what may I expect to see from the hint of the fight?

[south_tyne]

3 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

But my favourite part of the hour was when May explained that teenagers' faces had been blurred (at the big Telford show during the Airfix announcement) so that they might still be able to get a girlfriend. 

 

 

That was my highlight too! 

 

I watched the programme. I enjoyed the programme. I will watch the next episode. I still like Hornby. I still want Hornby to do well. I thought Simon Kohler was an excellent spokesperson for both the company and the hobby. 

 

My only negative...... What I will say is that the demographic captured throughout the programme was concerning. From the scenes at the Margate visitor centre, to the model club, to the modellers focused on individually, to the audience at the exhibitions, and even to, an admittedly lesser extent, the staff at the company, they were almost exclusively from the same genre - i.e. make, older 50+ year old, grey haired, middle class, white. Now this is not particularly meant as a criticism, just an observation. To be fair it is probably reflective of the make up of those involved in the hobby. However, purely from my perspective, it is a sad indictment of the lack of diversity in hobby though. As I said, I enjoyed the programme, but in some ways it still smacked of the same old stereotypes with regard to those involved. 

 

Anyway, I look forward to watching episode 2 next week.

[PaulRhB]

Modern media savvy, very well done SK and Hornby interesting and positive. It may not be the warts and all blame some seem to want, but that could really hurt confidence and their side of the story needs to look to the future, but they have a great bit of tv exposure that should help their image as they recover.

They recognised the problem and their mistakes and the new direction seems to be working and they get James May’s unique brand of informative and amusing tv to help. 

 

 

[jjb1970]

I thought the last management team that got the order of the boot to bring in LD had a lot of good ideas, particularly a conscious decision to refocus back to high quality products and the need to maintain a steady stream of new items. Others have noted it but the Hellcat was obviously initiated and developed before LD arrived (the idea that such a kit would be sat in a cupboard ignored until LD had the vision to produce the thing is clearly absurd) and the Hornby initiative with sound and new locomotives were a hangover from what went before. Which indicates the old team(s) wasn't (weren't) as completely inept as claimed. The last lot were only in the job a few months and got kicked out before any of their ideas could come to fruition but on the product development side LD inherited a company that was already going in the right direction and with plenty of excellent project in the pipeline.

 

On the old moulds, I suspect that the old team did Hornby a favour by having a good clear out and preventing SK from convincing Hornby that the path to riches lay in re-releasing old tat.

[Neil]

I enjoyed the programme as a piece of TV, but then James May's stuff usually strikes a good balance between informing and entertaining. The truth of the behind the scenes machinations of Hornby the business will probably never be known to us but I'm not sure that it's really important anyway. Will the two episodes serve to grow the hobby? I'm not sure that they will, I see them more as a reflection of the state of the hobby as it is, particularly when seen alongside all the other railway themed TV that has reached the airwaves of late.

[PaulRhB]

44 minutes ago, Pete Darton said:

Yes it’s a shame some of the old tooling is lost but as someone said this can help drive the company into the future without dwelling on the old items to sell. 

Quite, don't want them too focused on retro

[Chris Chewter]

I found the programme very interesting, but also slightly worrying at the same time. The one thing I noted was that there was a large proportion of retirees represented in the programme. For example, the guy making that Hellcat had time to spare to built such a beauty.

 

My worry is when I look at my own kids, they love the models I make but only when they are finished and on their shelves, but aren’t interested in the painstaking time it takes to get there, nor understand the satisfaction of looking back on a model representing the effort invested in making it.

 

I recognise the power of the ‘grey pound’ as one newspaper put it, but won’t a lack of investment in the younger generation be a mistake? I know it’s a well trodden worry, but to me the programme suggests that this is increasingly seen as a retirement hobby. Shouldn’t it be represented as a hobby for all generations?

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Pete Darton said:

SK is great for the company at the moment, but who will be the next SK when he does retire. They need someone with his passion to help drive the company for the next 20years. Someone in there 30’s or 40’s with a passion for model trains and do what SK does well is speaking to the customers. 

 

Yes it’s a shame some of the old tooling is lost but as someone said this can help drive the company into the future without dwelling on the old items to sell. 

 

If tooling costs so much it’s understandable why they need to recoup the cost quickly to keep the accountants happy. So tooling which is produced now has to pay for its self quickly but the profit from tooling will come over the next 10-20 years as its used again and again. So trains made now need to be still be wanted in 10-20 years, these are the people Hornby need to target.

I agree that SK is (and was previously) a great asset to Hornby. Hopefully someone suitable will emerge to replace him when he wishes to take life more easily, but he seems to be quite delighted to be doing what he is for now.

 

Old tooling is old tooling, and (in general) I don't lament its passing. Most of the 1960s/70s models are unspeakably crude relative to their modern successors. Just compare  a Tri-ang Jinty, to a recent Hornby  one, let alone the Bachmann model. If one likes the old stuff for its own sake, there is plenty of it around and finding it can be fun it its own right.   

 

I don't think any producer, in any sector of the economy, expects the new products of today to still make money for them a decade hence. That's how Hornby Dublo and Tri-ang did things in the 1950s and early 1960s. The demise of Hornby Dublo suggests it was already ceasing to work even then.  

 

Rightly or wrongly, today's business model, across the model railway industry, is based on novelty, and it's vital to recover ones investment quickly, make enough on top to plough into further new stuff and pay the shareholders a dividend. In short, Hornby et al need our money now, not next Christmas or the one after. Anything that remains in sufficient demand to justify further production in the short/medium term will be a bonus, but none of those involved can afford to keep product available for us to buy when we get round to it.

 

That's clearly illustrated by the number of obscure/niche products that have come to market. These sell initially to enthusiasts (who often never considered a r-t-r model would ever be produced), collectors, then to the "prototypically uncommitted" (train-setters and Rule 1-ers) on the basis of cuteness.

 

Where something like a Black Five or 57xx pannier will always have continuing enthusiast appeal (one can always use another) sales of the "obscurities" to those who follow the prototype will inevitably die back after the first flush. They're then best left alone for a few years until sufficient demand builds up from purchasers, either new to the hobby or those whose interests have moved to encompass the item since initial release.

 

As an example, I have one more Adams Radial than BR owned, and whilst there is one as yet unproduced variant that would appeal I otherwise don't anticipate buying any more however long Hornby continue to produce it. Other than well-heeled collectors who must have one of everything, I doubt I am alone, or that the Radial is, by any means, the only example that can be cited.

 

John 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Phil Parker]

46 minutes ago, Pete Darton said:

Yes it’s a shame some of the old tooling is lost but as someone said this can help drive the company into the future without dwelling on the old items to sell.

 

Or it can remove the chance of some easy cash-flow by re-running a vintage plastic kit, as Airfix are doing very successfully at the moment.  There is a demand for classic kits, many fetch high prices on the second-hand market putting them out of the reach of those who would build rather than collect them. If all we demand is "NEW!!" then presumably the Hellcat moulds should be in a skip to "force" the company to develop another model.

 

Throwing away irreplaceable (OK, you can, but at a massive cost) assets for the price of scrap was very painful for those involved. When Andy and I went down the Margate, the loss was still something that hurt more than those concerned showed on the TV. 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Maybe, but there was no mention of China in this context. The tools need to be in China to be utilised. They really are no more than redundant boat anchors if located in the UK. Maybe Part 2 will pick up on this aspect: how are you managing the tool store where the production work is currently undertaken?

[No Decorum]

59 minutes ago, Pete Darton said:

SK is great for the company at the moment, but who will be the next SK when he does retire. They need someone with his passion to help drive the company for the next 20years. Someone in there 30’s or 40’s with a passion for model trains and do what SK does well is speaking to the customers. 

 

Yes it’s a shame some of the old tooling is lost but as someone said this can help drive the company into the future without dwelling on the old items to sell. 

 

If tooling costs so much it’s understandable why they need to recoup the cost quickly to keep the accountants happy. So tooling which is produced now has to pay for its self quickly but the profit from tooling will come over the next 10-20 years as its used again and again. So trains made now need to be still be wanted in 10-20 years, these are the people Hornby need to target.

 

another market is the Father an Son world and investigate what they want. There was a obvious shortage of people like this in the video, not sure keeping children out of the program was a good move or was there a serious lack of children at Milton Keynes.

Don’t forget Paul Isles (Islesy in here). He occupies quite a different position in the company but he is a major asset. He is approachable by all reasonable people and is full of enthusiasm. It may be Paul or someone else but whoever came up with, and maintains, the Engine Shed was inspired.

 

A very enjoyable programme, by the way.

[Phil Parker]

7 minutes ago, Captainalbino said:

I found the programme very interesting, but also slightly worrying at the same time. The one thing I noted was that there was a large proportion of retirees represented in the programme. For example, the guy making that Hellcat had time to spare to built such a beauty.

 

My worry is when I look at my own kids, they love the models I make but only when they are finished and on their shelves, but aren’t interested in the painstaking time it takes to get there, nor understand the satisfaction of looking back on a model representing the effort invested in making it.

 

I recognise the power of the ‘grey pound’ as one newspaper put it, but won’t a lack of investment in the younger generation be a mistake? I know it’s a well trodden worry, but to me the programme suggests that this is increasingly seen as a retirement hobby. Shouldn’t it be represented as a hobby for all generations?

 

You need to be careful when assuming that the TV programme is entirely accurate. The average age at the IPMS show is a lot lower than at a comparable model railway event, quite a few late 20s and certainly plenty of 30-year-olds from across Europe. There were several digs in the show playing on the stereotypical image of modellers to provide a bit of humour. Funny, but don't take it all as gospel.

 

Incidentally, if anyone wants photos from that IPMS show, I have some here. Always a good event if you can handle the lack of trains. Mind you, I met Dave Haarhaus from Bachmann there (he was on the Pocketbond stand) and some may have spotted Kit Spakman staring up at the camera at one point. 

[ThaneofFife]

I thought it was great watch.   Simon Kohler came across as the thoroughly decent chap many of us will already be aware of but its still nice to see his sheer enthusiasm and concern for the hobby and the business.  Lets not pile up all expectations on this one man though - he cant do everything but he can certainly help steer the ship!

 

I see he was in at his desk at 6am which was an eyebrow raiser - that's dedication for what is essentially an office hours job.  Did anyone else spot the sticker on Simons office window "Spitfire"?   Was that a reference to the aircraft, the long gone spitfire railtour company or just maybe he was hot desking and had sat himself in the The Gateways "Sptifire" suite...…. LOL.

 

I liked the concept of the sound fitted vent van but thought some of the sounds were out of place.   Do people want sounds of barking dogs, the noise of peoples feet walking or the meowing of a cat on their layout?  I think the sound files chosen need a rethink. I wonder what the full file list contains but you would perhaps want running water, seagulls, church bells, chiming clock, distant fire engine or police car etc...….but a cat?  nah unless you're targeting dads and lads. 

 

People seem to be very vocal about the APT tooling that might have been binned.  A new model is on the way and the old Hornby version was really nothing worth having.  It was almost 40 years old and times move on.  Whilst its also nice to look at the old tooling with rose tinted glasses on - were they seriously going to do reruns of 30 and 40 year models?   I dont see a place for them unless they were part of the RailRoad family.  Maybe now its all gone its time to accept it and look forward to new models from new tooling.  

 

That retired kit builder honestly didn't have a grey hair on his head so how he managed to retire is anybodys guess but he looked under 50 - good for him.   What a way to pass your spare days building kits up.

 

Cant wait to see the next program in terms of what if any fight SK took to the other manufacturers.  I was half expecting to see him milling about on the Hattons stand sniffing around the new 66s!

 

Liked the couple that ran Harburn Hobbies.   I sensed their frustration at the delays on new models.

 

Did I miss something too on that 0-6-0 (was it a Maud J32?) where Ken discovered a chassis problem that meant the dcc sound fitted version would be delayed yet I swear they were still sending out the non sound versions............what if people later retro-fitted sound to their loco but they had the dodgy chassis issue?  I might have missed a detail on that  but I thought how could they release the model full stop with that axle which was moving excessively whether it had sound or not?   

 

All in all a great hours viewing for me.

Edited March 7, 2019 by ThaneofFife

[ThaneofFife]

1 hour ago, Pete Darton said:

SK is great for the company at the moment, but who will be the next SK when he does retire. 

 

 

I can think of a few possibilities depending on their level of personal ambition - Ben from Heljan and Dave from Hattons are just two names that spring to my mind.  I doubt the hobby will suffer from a lack of talent in that regard to take on the Kohler mantle at some point. Its certainly a job that needs a certain type of person. 

 

How about Jenny Kirk !   Some talented knowledgeable ladies out there too!   You never know folks......

 

that said you don't want an exact replica of SK - somebody with their own fresh ideas to build on the legacy is what you want.

Edited March 7, 2019 by ThaneofFife