BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Coryton]

2 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

Maybe not, but children aren't the big spenders withing the model railway hobby.

It's those that were children in the 50s/60s.

 

Quite.

 

And when the current generation of children are in their 50's and 60's?

 

That's not to say that nobody will be buying model trains any more, but I'm not sure that Hornby - if it's still around - will be seen in the way it currently is.

 

 

[newbryford]

Just now, Coryton said:

 

Quite.

 

And when the current generation of children are in their 50's and 60's?

 

That's not to say that nobody will be buying model trains any more, but I'm not sure that Hornby - if it's still around - will be seen in the way it currently is.

 

 

 

I await the time when folks look fondly back on the 800 IEPs...........

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Pete Darton said:

Tortoise are analog and need components to work with dcc controllers. Was thinking digital slow motion point motors with built in decoders.

Cobalt.

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Big James said:

I it last with my partner and we both found this show to be very good. The only thing that annoyed me is when they got the D&E modeller in who pointed out the only thing he had was a Hornby 08. While it was my better half who pointed that the majority of my LSWR stock is Hornby and I bet if they did a cross section of modellers you’d find a more even split with a few skewed either  way.

 

Big James  

It bothered me that the railway hobbyist was still being depicted as a nerdy geek, compete with plonky-plonky daft music soundtrack.

The dude building the Airfix 1:24 Hellcat came across as a very intelligent and well-balanced person. It seemed like the military kit hobby was ok and manly but toy trains are still the hobby of repressed boys who don't grow up. Getting pretty sick of this.

[Nearholmer]

"And yes, we've had lots of great product in the years of apparent poor management...........These were good years model wise........"

 

Those very words could have been, and probably have been, written about real Hornby c1957-64, and look how well that ended!

 

I actually get the jitters (well, not actually, you understand) when I see model railway companies launching new item, after new item, including duplicates, onto a sensibly fixed-size customer base, because the history of the hobby/industry is one of glut followed by bubbles bursting.

 

Modern methods have clearly have reduced the cost of getting something new to the market, but I do wonder if there is now an air of excessive competition ..... too many suppliers chasing too few customers, at present.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

Hornby may be making money out of Railroad models but I am not sure that the retailers are. For the last five months Hattons has been selling R3170 Adderly Hall, with a list price of £94.99, for £49 and R3491 Warship Benbow, list price £64.99, for £34.90. The Hall is Hattons' best seller but Hattons cannot be making much profit from selling them unless they received a huge discount from Hornby.

At those prices, anything that was truly a "best seller" would have sold out long ago.

 

That level of discounting suggests a last-ditch attempt to clear hugely over-produced items that have sold all they ever will to those who specifically want them. The target buyers are bargain hunters who want any loco so long as it's cheap. The strategy may or may not generate a profit, it's really about unlocking cash.

 

John

[Martin S-C]

4 hours ago, Pete Darton said:

Tortoise are analog and need components to work with dcc controllers. Was thinking digital slow motion point motors with built in decoders.

There is no such thing as an analog or DCC point motor. There are just point motors. How you choose to power them is up to you, whether its via a DC or DCC setup.

[Pacific231G]

4 hours ago, SVRlad said:

Just watched it on iPlayer. Thought it was very good; had the right balance between good humour and the way they illustrated the challenges Hornby faced.

 

I couldn't help but laugh at the launch of the Airfix Hellcat, when they blurred the faces of some of the young modellers at the front of the crowd to give them a better chance of finding a lady later on in life. I spent a while in front of the Hornby stand at Warley; suspect I've been blurred too....

 

One thing I thought wasn't really necessary however was when Jim the Airfix builder was having his lunch, and there was about 30 seconds simply of him slurping his coffee before saying, "Back to work." Maybe they were trying to show how much he was feeling the pressure?

That's precisely what they were trying to show and to me that short sequence made that point very well. 

 

Though James May made a quip about it,  the blurring  of the young modellers' faces  was entirely proper. For years now television guidelines (certainly in the BBC) have been that, while it's generally OK to show adults in a public place without their specific permission, that is not the case for children. If they are identifiable you do need parental permission and there are very good safeguarding reasons for that. 

 

I quite enjoyed the programme but I'm not sure it quite knew what it was trying to say and thought James May was pushing his men in sheds persona a bit too much. Some of Hornby's customer base fit that stereotype but many more do not.

 

Though I wish LD, SK and their team well (and would really like to see Hornby's international brands develop) I couldn't help feeling that previous management were being condemned out of hand without any chance to speak up for themselves. It also seemed to think that the present Hornby is the same company that Frank Hornby founded in 1901. The story is a bit complicated but, from what I know of its history, can't help feeling that the present Hornby has more of Tri-ang's DNA.   It's not quite the same as the present Great Western Railway claiming Brunel as its founder in some of its advertising but not a million miles from that. The obvious irony of Hattons being based in Liverpool was missed.

 

Edited March 7, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Martin S-C]

3 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

Surely the point being made was that the days of a model railway/train set = Hornby have been and gone.

 

I disagree. You only need to frequent some of the more trainsetty Facebook groups to discover that Hornby = trainsets and trainsets = Hornby. There are people to whom Hornby is still the only go-to product for their hobby. Locos, coaches, wagons, track, controllers, buildings, trainset-sheets even.

Even though the writing was put on the wall by Airfix in 1981, Hornby and their railroad range is still today a critical and successful product stream. It is the arrival of the Bachmanns, the Rapidos and the critical demands of the high-end modelling market that have obliged Hornby to set aside their entire 1980s quality products into a new "railroad" label and fork out on new R&D and tooling to satisfy us. Yes, us. People who are prepared to glue cosmetic screw couplings onto the buffer beam of a loco are high-end. There is stil a huge and viable "toy-trainset" market out there and Hornby's railroad range seems to now be the only player in that market. The Railroad range, based on 1980s and 1990s tooling may well be keeping the company alive.

Edited March 7, 2019 by Martin S-C

[wombatofludham]

Enjoyed the programme, the presenter and the tone of the general thing.  When it comes to Hornby, I'll buy stuff if it's good and what I need (Class 87 for example, and when Oxford do the HST trailers I'll get an HST but the current Hornby coaches let the power cars down) and I thought this year saw a subtle re-positioning to get back to the Hornby of old, with a more balanced range with enough to interest the grey pound market and younger more price conscious modellers.  

 

Intrigued to see next week.

[Hroth]

Just got around to watching it, an entertaining hours worth of viewing.

 

The interesting thing about the sequence concerning the tool sets is that I'm sure I recall SK being quoted as saying a long time ago, when the case for resurrecting the ATP APT was being mooted, that the ATP APT toolset (and many others) was badly stored at the back of the Margate warehouse, that the tools were in an unusable state and the shelving was in such a condition that it would be unsafe to attempt to move it.  I also remember someone else saying that most of the Margate tools that hadn't been migrated to China were left behind because they were incompatible with the moulding machines.

 

Looking forward to the "fight"!

 

(Also looking forward to "Lord Nelson" arriving next month. Fingers crossed...)

Edited March 8, 2019 by Hroth
Late night inability to differentiate between Adenosine triphosphate and Advanced Passenger Train

[MrTea]

On 06/03/2019 at 22:17, delticfan said:

Quite shocking that the moulds were scrapped Simon seemed visibly shocked. Heaven knows what was lost all those iconic ex triang bridges platforms etc. I hope not.

 

Has anybody else had the thought that the some scrapped tools could quite easily have been from the now-infamous 2012 Olympic tat?

 

Presumably most of us would be glad to see the back of those as it’s a reminder of one of the biggest commercial mis-steps the company made prior to SK’s departure?

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, woodenhead said:

I think it would be good to do a high detail model of a class 66 as I think it would be a good idea.

Surely you mean the Class 92 - they're much more fashionable

[leavesontheline]

1 hour ago, newbryford said:

 

I await the time when folks look fondly back on the 800 IEPs...........

 

You never know though! When I was small I used to think that HST's were a boring shape and so noisy I used to have to cover my ears. Now, some forty years later (and somewhat incredibly) they are still around and in active service .... for a bit longer anyway .... I actually do view them with some fondness (not just due to the supreme comfort of the Mk3 coaches) and it will be a sad day when they finally stop running! Okay they are much quieter these (non-Paxman Valenta) days but there is something pleasing in hearing two large powerful diesel engines spool up as they pull away.

 

We still get this to a lesser extent with the Class 800's. So I believe one day when everything has been fully electrified and all locos just make a household-appliance-like whirring noise, we might look back on the IEP's as I look back on the HST's now!?

 

You never know ......

[Ron Ron Ron]

 

 

1 hour ago, Martin S-C said:

It bothered me that the railway hobbyist was still being depicted as a nerdy geek, compete with plonky-plonky daft music soundtrack.

The dude building the Airfix 1:24 Hellcat came across as a very intelligent and well-balanced person. It seemed like the military kit hobby was ok and manly but toy trains are still the hobby of repressed boys who don't grow up. Getting pretty sick of this.

 

I've only just watched Wednesday night's first episode.

That's the impression I got.

 

The chap building the Hellcat (Jim?) came across as a normal guy and a serious modeller and there was a good glimpse of the level of detail involved, both with the kit and his own painting and modelling skills.

The kit building hobby appeared as a fairly vibrant scene, which I must say, did surprise me.

 

On the other hand, the model railway fraternity and the hobby were not portrayed in such a good light, IMHO.

No offence to the guy, but Gerrard seemed (or at least was portrayed as) slightly eccentric and the DOGA layout Batcombe appeared to be a very poor example of crude and dated modelling.

Unfortunately, the predominance of "old scuffers" at the exhibition and in other scenes, is the reality of the hobby's situation.

 

 

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

......Though I wish LD, SK and their team well (and would really like to see Hornby's international brands develop) I couldn't help feeling that previous management were being condemned out of hand without any chance to speak up for themselves........

 

 

There's a very big element of trying to rewrite history here.

As has already been pointed out, Hornby got into serious difficulties long before the "previous management" took charge.

Things started to go wrong almost 10 years ago, following the financial crash and the sale of Sanda Kan to Kader.

Some of the circumstances were outside of Hornby's control, but the managements teams, of which SK was very much a part of, were responsible for a series of blunders that took the company into serious financial losses.

 

The "previous management", with whom SK is said to have fallen out of favour with, were guilty of screwing up and making things worst in trying to dig the company out of the deep hole created by those in charge before them..

 

p.s. I'd love to hear the unedited version of what the old guy in the visitor centre said about it all.  

 

 

 

.

[Brian Indge]

13 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

p.s. I'd love to hear the unedited version of what the old guy in the visitor centre said about it all.  

 

 

 

.

 

And so would I!

[south_tyne]

6 hours ago, SVRlad said:

 

One thing I thought wasn't really necessary however was when Jim the Airfix builder was having his lunch, and there was about 30 seconds simply of him slurping his coffee before saying, "Back to work." Maybe they were trying to show how much he was feeling the pressure?

 

Personally I was highly impressed by the speed with which Jim both prepared and devoured that ham sandwich!! I think he is in the wrong game..... rather than assembling Airfix kits he should open a deli!! 

[south_tyne]

5 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Just to make one more comment about Hornby, rather than Primark or boring old fuddy duddies, and that is that Hornby clearly have a lot of passion for Pecketts, which is just fine by me.

 

 

It's startling how the sight of a little saddle tank can raise the blood pressure of so many old fuddy duddies!! 

 

Mind this (slightly) younger fuddy duddy has a similar reaction to a Ruston 48ds.... 

Edited March 8, 2019 by south_tyne
Spelling

[rockershovel]

Well, I quite enjoyed it. I don’t expect serious investigative journalism from James May, so it didn’t disappoint me when that wasn’t really offered. It was amusing, mostly fairly predictable and a bit different, although I was a bit disconcerted by the part where Simon Koehler arrived at his desk at 6am and proceeded to take a range of medication... 

 

I rather enjoyed Jim the kit builder, although somehow it seemed only to be expected that a crucial task like that depended on the efforts of a single, unpaid volunteer with no actual role in the company. Did he actually have to pay for his own admission at Telford? It would be instructive to know how Tamiya, say, approach the question? 

 

I quite liked the vent van. I seem to remember seeing an exhibition layout, years ago, with sounds from speakers  distributed under the baseboards, and the 009 County Gate layout seemed to have a similar set-up, the one time I saw it? I’m not sure about the cat, mind... 

 

it all seemed typical of our times, a company which had long since abandoned its original function, trying to survive by creating the perception of difference - whilst actually functioning as a distributor for items whose production it had little control over. Outlets like Hattons only exist because ultimately, the actual producers will sell items to anyone who pays. I don’t really think we learnt much about what lies in store for Hornby, though. 

 

 

 

[Michael Delamar]

I enjoyed it.

 

For me the problem for Hornby and the big Model Railway companies as a whole is they have to keep a wide spectrum of people happy.

It doesn’t really know what it wants to be. 

Engineering a model to work on different standards of track from the roughly laid code 100 layout to the finescale. Should it have Sound, DCC. Robust for a child or delicate and intricate. Engineered for tight curves and gradients.

 

For Airfix, the model kit world is purely modellers who want a realistic looking kit to enjoy as a static model.

 

The products I’m enjoying seeing now are the likes of the SLW class 24. Which it is directed at one part of the model Railway community. Not all of it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rob D2]

I don’t think there’s a need to attack any of the participants or models TBH.

I’m guessing Jools Holland was busy......a very rare “ cool “ modeller 

 

James May, I feel, is on our side..he may poke fun a tad ( blurred teenagers )but it’s called humour .If we can’t laugh at ourselves playing trains we are in deep s..

 

I don’t feel it’s unfair to the previous management - the balance sheet bares out the fact it was a right cock up of a period, and they made some heinous mistakes esp getting rid of Simon who I think is pivital to the whole thing.

[Ian J.]

I found it a typical fly-on-the-wall format programme, a bit light on nitty-gritty within the industry and tending towards trying to see stress and conflict for the 'human interest' element when perhaps there might have been less obvious but more interesting stuff from an enthusiast point of view. However, it's arguably a mainstream programme despite being on BBC4, so not unexpected. I don't doubt there are many hours of significant but not attractive material 'sitting on the cutting room floor'.

 

One question: are Hornby willing to let us know if any of the more recent, higher fidelity tooling was included in that which was scrapped? I'm thinking since and including the rebuilt Merchant Navy came out.

[t8hants]

Not being very up to speed with the modern hobby, I am slightly puzzled by the apparent deep concern over the lost moulds, surely most of the older moulds would produce something no longer considered up to standard for today's modeler.  The surviving tunnel mould, if its the old Triang R576, would produce an item that no-one would consider using on a modern layout, so apart from nostalgia, why are they keeping it?  I thought I heard that a scrappage list had been produced and acted upon, so although it was not known by the incoming gentleman at the time,  there should be no mystery.

From the future of the company point of view, I don't know what percentage of the hobby is like myself and cannot consider the latest three figure priced loco and worried that it is so detailed and delicate I'll break it trying to get it out of the box.  I haunt the s/h tables looking for a bargain models from the 90's, but my layout is strictly branch-line, so my loco requirements are very simple.  My mates layout is 80% doublo, so he gets even better bargains than I do.

[blueeighties]

9 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

There is no such thing as an analog or DCC point motor. There are just point motors. How you choose to power them is up to you, whether its via a DC or DCC setup.

So in that case, why do DCC Concepts sell analogue and digital Cobalt motors? 

[adb968008]

9 hours ago, MrTea said:

 

Has anybody else had the thought that the some scrapped tools could quite easily have been from the now-infamous 2012 Olympic tat?

 

Presumably most of us would be glad to see the back of those as it’s a reminder of one of the biggest commercial mis-steps the company made prior to SK’s departure?

We havent seen a clan for a long time.