BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Coryton]

4 hours ago, rockershovel said:

it all seemed typical of our times, a company which had long since abandoned its original function, trying to survive by creating the perception of difference - whilst actually functioning as a distributor for items whose production it had little control over. 

 

Really?

 

Hornby still chooses what models to make, decides how many and at what price, does the research, prepares the design to manufacture the tooling and indeed owns the tooling. They have outsourced the actual manufacture but I hardly see how that makes them just a distributor. 

 

They don't have as much control over manufacture as they used to, but they do choose what gets made and in what quantities (even if they are under more constraints over that than when they had their own factory).

 

2 hours ago, Michael Delamar said:

For me the problem for Hornby and the big Model Railway companies as a whole is they have to keep a wide spectrum of people happy.

It doesn’t really know what it wants to be. 

Engineering a model to work on different standards of track from the roughly laid code 100 layout to the finescale. Should it have Sound, DCC. Robust for a child or delicate and intricate. Engineered for tight curves and gradients.

 

Perhaps it's more complex than making Airfix models, but I don't think it's as bad as that.

 

Tight curves: their products are made to go round tight curves from Railroad to highly detailed. That seems to work for their market.

Sound and DCC: both options and I really don't see anything wrong with that. Can come with them or be fitted afterwards

Robust or delicate: yes they cover both of these and in principle that's what the Railroad range is for. (Though I concede that the differentiation between Railroad and 'normal' isn't as clear as it might be).

 

 

 

[Widnes Model Centre]

20 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Chief Operations Officer Tim Mulhall has sent over a few explanatory notes:

 

 

 

Yes, I never heard it as being old tooling either. I thought I had missed something so watched it again.

 

Unfortunately I have been unable to include Tim Mulhall's comments in his note to Andy Y. Basically he said that there was no indication that this was old too tooling and that Hornby had 15 Brands.

 

Whatever the tooling was it would have been short-sighted to get rid of any tooling. One only has to look at the Kitmaster range still being produced by Dapol today. If it was Olympic Torches etc, then a good move to make sure that mistake wasn't replicated!

 

Can anyone name all 15 Brands, I am struggling?

 

Yesterday had a telephone call from Hornby, apologising for ringing on my day off, but I had an unpaid invoice from January 2019. I apologised and couldn't understand how that had happened. There then followed a brief interlude while the young man made his impressions of a "chuff-chuff". Then he apologised and said it had been paid. We both laughed about it. I explained when we had both stopped laughing that when I saw the number come up on my phone, I had immediately thought it was Sales or Marketing asking my opinion on the BBC4 programme. At least they were chasing up outstanding debts, even if it was a genuine mistake. We certainly had no problem with our phone call.

 

What has not been mentioned from what I can see on this forum is how Hornby had gone to great lengths to improve the relationship with Retailers. When we spoke to Simon Kohler at Glasgow, my  wife and I were amazed at how much he knew about our business and who we were. Very impressive and went a very long way to increasing our trust in Hornby.

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 hours ago, Michael Delamar said:

I enjoyed it.

 

For me the problem for Hornby and the big Model Railway companies as a whole is they have to keep a wide spectrum of people happy.

It doesn’t really know what it wants to be. 

Engineering a model to work on different standards of track from the roughly laid code 100 layout to the finescale. Should it have Sound, DCC. Robust for a child or delicate and intricate. Engineered for tight curves and gradients.

 

For Airfix, the model kit world is purely modellers who want a realistic looking kit to enjoy as a static model.

 

The products I’m enjoying seeing now are the likes of the SLW class 24. Which it is directed at one part of the model Railway community. Not all of it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I totally agree with this.

 

Bachmann and the other new entrants don't have this problem to quite the same extent simply because they have never been at the toy end of the market, except, for Bachmann, Thomas the Tank Engine which is a very distinct range. That said, they are still compromised by trying to make finely detailed models go round R2 curves.

 

I have not yet seen the programme but I understand that SK was bemoaning the fact that some tooling had been destroyed that could have been useful for the Railroad range. Railroad was certainly a good initiative but it was never differentiated enough from the high detail range. Perhaps that could still be done?

[Joseph_Pestell]

3 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

 

 

 

 

Can anyone name all 15 Brands, I am struggling?

 

 

 

I'll have a go.

Hornby, Hornby Railroad, Arnold, Electrotren, Jouef, Lima, Lima Expert, Rivarossi, Pocher, Corgi, Airfix, Scalextric, Humbrol,

 

Failed by two for the moment. But I have not had my second coffee yet.

[Widnes Model Centre]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I'll have a go.

Hornby, Hornby Railroad, Arnold, Electrotren, Jouef, Lima, Lima Expert, Rivarossi, Pocher, Corgi, Airfix, Scalextric, Humbrol,

 

Failed by two for the moment. But I have not had my second coffee yet.

 

Drink it as quick as you can. I got that far and stumbled. Got to open up at 10am.

[MarkSG]

1 hour ago, t8hants said:

Not being very up to speed with the modern hobby, I am slightly puzzled by the apparent deep concern over the lost moulds, surely most of the older moulds would produce something no longer considered up to standard for today's modeler.  The surviving tunnel mould, if its the old Triang R576, would produce an item that no-one would consider using on a modern layout, so apart from nostalgia, why are they keeping it? 

 

None of us would consider using it on a layout, no. But it's still the sort of thing that appeals to train set owners, particularly children. And, from Hornby's perspective, the older moulds are potential cash cows as they have long since covered their development costs.

 

Bringing them back into production is a low cost and relatively low risk move; they don't need to sell that many to be profitable. And if they do sell well, they could be significant money-spinners.

[Ron Ron Ron]

26 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I'll have a go.

Hornby, Hornby Railroad, Arnold, Electrotren, Jouef, Lima, Lima Expert, Rivarossi, Pocher, Corgi, Airfix, Scalextric, Humbrol,

 

Failed by two for the moment. But I have not had my second coffee yet.

 

One of the missing ones is MKD plastic kits.

 

I'm not sure if TTTE is considered a separate Hornby brand?

 

 

.

 

 

.

[SimonF]

33 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

Drink it as quick as you can. I got that far and stumbled. Got to open up at 10am.

 

Bassett Lowke?

[Phil Parker]

1 hour ago, t8hants said:

Not being very up to speed with the modern hobby, I am slightly puzzled by the apparent deep concern over the lost moulds, surely most of the older moulds would produce something no longer considered up to standard for today's modeler.  The surviving tunnel mould, if its the old Triang R576, would produce an item that no-one would consider using on a modern layout, so apart from nostalgia, why are they keeping it?  I thought I heard that a scrappage list had been produced and acted upon, so although it was not known by the incoming gentleman at the time,  there should be no mystery.

 

Because storage is cheap compared to the cost of replacing the lost moulds.  People still buy older models and if you can knock out a quick run very cheaply and bring in some cash, why wouldn't you? The tunnel is a classic that might not suit you, but will still sell. Not everyone is a finescaleP4 modeller, some people just like a train set. 

 

The scrapage list is interesting. I was told by someone very senior at Hornby that they simply did not know what was gone. People here are assuming it's just trains, but the chances are stuff from all the brands was affected. Airfix are doing well with some classic kit reintroductions and there is plenty from past ranges I would have over money for.

[Dunsignalling]

41 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I totally agree with this.

 

Bachmann and the other new entrants don't have this problem to quite the same extent simply because they have never been at the toy end of the market, except, for Bachmann, Thomas the Tank Engine which is a very distinct range. That said, they are still compromised by trying to make finely detailed models go round R2 curves.

 

I have not yet seen the programme but I understand that SK was bemoaning the fact that some tooling had been destroyed that could have been useful for the Railroad range. Railroad was certainly a good initiative but it was never differentiated enough from the high detail range. Perhaps that could still be done?

I think that may be an inescapable requirement. Without it, the models would effectively become items for static display only for many/most purchasers. 

 

There are many "relatively serious" modellers who need their locos to be able to negotiate No.2 radius hidden curves in order to free up room to create a more realistic appearance to the visible parts of their layouts.

 

The ability to juggle geometry in this way Is one reason why so many of us have stuck with OO rather than adopting EM or P4, both of which require more generous radii unless one is willing to limit oneself to straight-line "shunting plank", loco-depot or BLT layouts.

 

As for the loss of "old" tooling (assuming it really is old, not stuff like the Clan), whilst its destruction will reduce Hornby's options in the short term, it may force them into greater innovation in the Railroad department, which will be no bad thing IMHO.

 

John

 

  

Edited March 8, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[C.A.T.Ford]

Burago?

 

CAT

[dibber25]

2 hours ago, Ian J. said:

I found it a typical fly-on-the-wall format programme, a bit light on nitty-gritty within the industry and tending towards trying to see stress and conflict for the 'human interest' element when perhaps there might have been less obvious but more interesting stuff from an enthusiast point of view. However, it's arguably a mainstream programme despite being on BBC4, so not unexpected. I don't doubt there are many hours of significant but not attractive material 'sitting on the cutting room floor'.

 

One question: are Hornby willing to let us know if any of the more recent, higher fidelity tooling was included in that which was scrapped? I'm thinking since and including the rebuilt Merchant Navy came out.

The answer to the question is almost certainly, No. Everything post the Class 92 has been made in China and the tooling will never have come near these shores. Indeed, it is, I believe, often difficult to get tooling moved from one factory to another within China. (CJL)

[it's-er]

1 hour ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I'll have a go.

Hornby, Hornby Railroad, Arnold, Electrotren, Jouef, Lima, Lima Expert, Rivarossi, Pocher, Corgi, Airfix, Scalextric, Humbrol,

 

Failed by two for the moment. But I have not had my second coffee yet.

Skaledale is one of your missing two.

 

John Storey

[railroadbill]

Saw this on i-player last night.  Well made TV I thought, sort of thing James May does very well.

 

Best lines, "do you think you'll ever build the Bismark, Jim?"  and "Jim needs a break from constant modelling."

I found myself identifying with many of the people interviewed, but SABLE has got me  worried...

 

James May (who had a writing credit) absolutely nailed the  obsessiveness of "the Hobby as it's called".  

Also, the very focused and enthusiastic Hornby  developers seemed to be of the same general demographic as the great majority of their customers.  A "we're all in this together" vibe which must be good for Hornby's image for it's main purchasers.

 

Certainly be watching next week's one.

Edited March 8, 2019 by railroadbill

[Ron Ron Ron]

5 minutes ago, railroadbill said:

 

.......Also, the very focused and enthusiastic Hornby  developers seemed to be of the same general demographic as the great majority of their customers........

 

Yes, old......probably largely out of touch with the needs of the future market.........and soon to be dropping off their perches.

 

 

I’ll be one of them too.

 

Ron

[Georgeconna]

14 hours ago, rob D2 said:

I thought it was very interesting - especially actually the airfix bits with the hellcat and the big Telford show, I hadn’t realised plastic kits were still so big - I wonder how big the market is in the UK ?

 

good to see Mr Kohler - a steady hand back at the tiller and one that seems to listen to what the modellers really want .

 

Loved Gerard with his “ actually just the shunter is Hornby “

and the kit guy ( can’t remember  his name ) “ we are all on the spectrum somewhere “

 

looking forward to part2

 

My Wife heard the 'Spectrum' bit and informed me she will be applying for carers allowance...Ouch.

[Ron Ron Ron]

1 hour ago, C.A.T.Ford said:

Burago?

 

CAT

 

No.

[railroadbill]

10 hours ago, leavesontheline said:

 

You never know though! When I was small I used to think that HST's were a boring shape and so noisy I used to have to cover my ears. Now, some forty years later (and somewhat incredibly) they are still around and in active service .... for a bit longer anyway .... I actually do view them with some fondness (not just due to the supreme comfort of the Mk3 coaches) and it will be a sad day when they finally stop running! Okay they are much quieter these (non-Paxman Valenta) days but there is something pleasing in hearing two large powerful diesel engines spool up as they pull away.

 

We still get this to a lesser extent with the Class 800's. So I believe one day when everything has been fully electrified and all locos just make a household-appliance-like whirring noise, we might look back on the IEP's as I look back on the HST's now!?

 

You never know ......

Agree completely. My equally obsessed mate and I have made some journeys on HSTs and trips to film them recently because they are a classic train very innovative in it's day. However, as always it is the old stuff that has the pull to see it before it goes...

[Ron Ron Ron]

The missing two, are MKD plastic kits and Heico Modell.

 

 

Ron

[railroadbill]

7 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Yes, old......probably largely out of touch with the needs of the future market.........and soon to be dropping off their perches.

 

 

I’ll be one of them too.

 

Ron

Same here, Ron. I meant they were right for the present market and therefore Hornby had got that right.  However, re the future, my 2 1/2 year old grandson does like his Brio trainset so there is still hope at the end of the tunnel (which I gather Hornby still has a mould for,,,)

[AY Mod]

28 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Yes, old......probably largely out of touch with the needs of the future market.........and soon to be dropping off their perches.

 

They're not all 'old' - Ed, who featured in the programme is the oldest (and longest served I believe) - they probably won't let him escape yet. They did lose some good people in an earlier 'restructuring'. If they'd all escaped then the business would have had much more serious problems over the last couple of years.

[Jeff Smith]

Watched the programme and was quite interested.  I was disappointed that it didn't mention all the research that has to be done for model production but that aspect would probably bore the general public part of the audience.

 

I used to build plastic model aircraft but am not up with the hobby so was interested to see that type of model fair.  I wonder, and I'm sure there are multi-disciplined modellers here, whether the same type of accuracy discussions/complaints take place about aircraft models as about loco models? 

 

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

3 hours ago, Ian J. said:

... are Hornby willing to let us know if any of the more recent, higher fidelity tooling was included in that which was scrapped? I'm thinking since and including the rebuilt Merchant Navy came out.

 

42 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

The answer to the question is almost certainly, No. Everything post the Class 92 has been made in China and the tooling will never have come near these shores. Indeed, it is, I believe, often difficult to get tooling moved from one factory to another within China. (CJL)

Further to which, the management of ancient tools still in the UK - which therefore probably haven't been used in twenty years - is a tiny sideshow  to the essential business of managing the tool store currently located in China and India, and quite possibly yet elsewhere. That's the kind of information about a vital aspect of their current manufacturing process that would be infinitely more interesting; and is absolutely necessary for the future of the business. When you read potential customers griping that there's been no production of this or that model for an age, that may point to 'a problem' in tool store management. No amount of personable charm will get you anywhere with this, it's hard graft.

 

I hope we see a little more of Lyndon Davies in round 2. He looks like a guy with his head on right who will be able to talk from direct knowledge of the manufacturing process.

[Corbs]

I really enjoyed it and looking forward to part 2.

Others have mentioned this, and I understand if you don't agree with me, but I find it hard to feel sad about the scrapping of the old tooling. A lot of it was just junk and it staggers me a little that Hornby are still selling (and promoting) stuff like the inside framed 08 with its cake mould body. IMO this adds nothing to the range and brings it down - the image of 'still churning out the same old stuff as we were 25 years ago'. 

The counter-argument to this is, of course, that they need cheap and robust models to sell to entry-level people like parents of young kids. My response to this is that Hornby are capable of doing the same thing with newer, better, entry-level models, and have proved this with new tooling like the Bagnall 4 wheel diesel which at least looks like it's from this century whilst still being cheap and cheerful.

 

 

Another example is Bachmann with the Junior range, which originally used the Thomas moulds and managed to supply starter-level models that had things like outside motion. 

 

I think and hope that Hornby are on the right path now. The detailed new models they are producing are amazing and IMO still great value for money. 

 

TL:DR for the above - I think that instead of re-releasing old outdated tooling for starter sets, they need to continue with developing new starter sets, so I am not sad the old tooling was scrapped.

[ThaneofFife]

After box setting the series of White Gold that's been made available last night I was hoping episode two had also made it onto the BBC i-Player but no joy there...….

 

with regards to the inter-manufacturer  "fight" that people are waiting to see in the second part...…. upon reflection I reckon that this might have been over dramatized a bit or we have taken it literally and doubt we will see any real "beefs" going down.