BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Coryton]

3 hours ago, dibber25 said:

The answer to the question is almost certainly, No. Everything post the Class 92 has been made in China and the tooling will never have come near these shores. Indeed, it is, I believe, often difficult to get tooling moved from one factory to another within China. (CJL)

 

It seems to be taken for granted on here that what's made in China stays in China....but wasn't there a comment further back from Hornby contradicting that?

[Captain Kernow]

3 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Selling a kit cuts out the assembly costs.

 

But it does mean making sure that each box has the right number of each part - something you don't need in a factory.

 

Then either you need a way of providing parts that were missing from the box (whether they really were or the customer lost them) or face bad PR.

 

It also assumes that there is no assembly stage that requires a jig.

 

Airfix kits are all plastic, aren't they? So a bit simpler than all the bits that go together to make a locomotive.

 

Remembering the days of excitement at getting a new Airfix plastic railway kit to build, I do wonder if Hornby (Airfix?) might have a market in the future with quality plastic kits for locos and/or other railway subjects, possibly not in 4mm scale, but perhaps 7mm?

 

[Fat Controller]

21 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Like the original Bachmann Junior locomotives, the Bagnall is a refugee from the Thomas Range, isn't it?

 

I haven't seen any Bachmann Junior locomotives for a while, so maybe the idea didn't work so well for them...

The little 0-4-0 diesel was in the Triang range, even before they bought Hornby, IIRC

[Dunsignalling]

10 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

The little 0-4-0 diesel was in the Triang range, even before they bought Hornby, IIRC

Pretty sure the current one does have its roots in the TTTE range, it's a fair bit bigger than I remember Nellie's little diesel brother (R.559) being. The bonnet is longer and the cab taller, to the extent I'd think it's a bit oversized for 4mm scale, like Bill and Ben were. 

 

John

Edited March 8, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[PaulRhB]

17 minutes ago, CloggyDog said:

 

 

That said... at SMW last November in the competition area, there was this beautiful 1/48 EE P1, scratch built with a plasticard/strip frame and skinned with kitchen foil. Quite possibly the best model I've ever seen.

Yes absolutely stunning and I bet in a well setup photo you wouldn’t tell it isn’t real, but could you ever touch your locos again if you do the bodysides with foil to that standard!  

[GeoffAlan]

8 hours ago, Michael Delamar said:

I enjoyed it.

 

For me the problem for Hornby and the big Model Railway companies as a whole is they have to keep a wide spectrum of people happy.

It doesn’t really know what it wants to be. 

Engineering a model to work on different standards of track from the roughly laid code 100 layout to the finescale. Should it have Sound, DCC. Robust for a child or delicate and intricate. Engineered for tight curves and gradients.

 

For Airfix, the model kit world is purely modellers who want a realistic looking kit to enjoy as a static model.

 

The products I’m enjoying seeing now are the likes of the SLW class 24. Which it is directed at one part of the model Railway community. Not all of it. 

I think this is the crux of the matter. My 9 yr old grandson is mad about trains, he would love his own layout, although his home circumstances make that difficult given the number of dogs they have. If he could have a layout then it would need to be fairly robust, not because he would be careless, but so it would survive the attentions of dogs and his little sister. I model in N gauge and have a medium sized home layout. When I buy stock I buy for looks and serviceability. If I were in the 00  market I'd apply the same criteria.

 

It is a big ask for a company to cater for both markets and it seems Hornby has, at least in the past tried to do this. 

 

Some posters have mentioned the demographic, into which I most certainly fit, of old guys that represent the spending power in the higher end railway market. I suspect that the same criteria applies to potential purchasers of the 1/24th scale F6F. Any firm trying to cater for me and a 9 yr old deserves my sympathy. I do hope Hornby get the balance right. I was a customer many years ago, but unless they choose to re-enter the N gauge market, my only purchases from Hornby will be for my grandson.

8 hours ago, Michael Delamar said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Coryton]

8 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

Pretty sure the current one does have its roots in the TTTE range, it's a fair bit bigger than I remember Nellie's little diesel brother (R.559) being. The bonnet is longer and the cab taller, to the extent I'd think it's a bit oversized for 4mm scale, like Bill and Ben were. 

 

John

 

Triang had the "dock shunter", didn't they?

 

The Bagnall is a rather different shape (and, it seems, stretched to fit over the cylinders on the 0-4-0 chassis, though they now seem to have a cylinder-less chassis for it).

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Coryton said:

 

Triang had the "dock shunter", didn't they?

 

The Bagnall is a rather different shape (and, it seems, stretched to fit over the cylinders on the 0-4-0 chassis, though they now seem to have a cylinder-less chassis for it).

I just had a look on the net; the older 4-wheel diesel was (purportedly) a North British example.

[Dunsignalling]

5 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

I just had a look on the net; the older 4-wheel diesel was (purportedly) a North British example.

Correct, that was the one with coupling rods, mounted on the "Nellie" chassis.

 

The Dock Shunter has a motor bogie from the Transcontinental diesels under it.

 

John

[Pacific231G]

37 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Selling a kit cuts out the assembly costs.

 

But it does mean making sure that each box has the right number of each part - something you don't need in a factory.

 

Then either you need a way of providing parts that were missing from the box (whether they really were or the customer lost them) or face bad PR.

 

It also assumes that there is no assembly stage that requires a jig.

 

Airfix kits are all plastic, aren't they? So a bit simpler than all the bits that go together to make a locomotive.

 

Tri-ang used to have their CKD (completely knocked down) kits but I don't know if those really were just the parts needed for the same models RTR or whether they adapted them for home construction. When I was into Amercan H0 many years ago I used to buy from Victors what are colloquially known as shake-the-box kits for freight cars from Athearn and Roundhouse. I don't know if the idea was to give people the sense of having built the model themselves. I never kidded myself that this constituted "modelling" though I built a few "Crafstman kits" that did since they involved cutting timbers to size and so on.  AFAIR the freight car kits came with a painted moulding for the body, a pair of assembled bogies and the screws to fit them but everything else on a single black plastic sprue. I don't remember ever having a missing part (except in my own carpet!)

 

 CKD and Shake the Box may have had something to do with avoiding higher sales taxes on complete "toys" though in the American case it may simply have been that avoiding five minutes of final assembly created savings of fairly expensive US labour costs as well as needing less packaging (The Kadee couplers I used at that time also came partly unassembled unlike the NEM type I use now)

This may also have had something to do with using local final assembly to avoid a large chunk of import duties and the Tri-ang CKDs may have been what they exported anyway in rather greater bulk for local factory assembly in Australia etc. The one advantage of the CKD loco kits was that having assembled it you'd know how to disassemble it for maintenance or servicing.

There can though be definite disadvantages to this approach as you will see here. 

https://youtu.be/RPiDwCdobYI?t=394

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Fat Controller]

1 minute ago, Pacific231G said:

Tir-ang used to have their CKD (completely knocked down) kits but I don't know if those really were just the parts needed for the same models RTR or whether they adapted them for home construction. When I was into Amercan H0 many years ago I used to buy from Victors what are colloquially known as shake-the-box kits for freight cars from Athearn and Roundhouse. I never kidded myself that this constituted modelling though I built a few "Crafstman kits" that did since they involved cutting timbers to size and so on.  AFAIR the freight car kits came with a painted moulding for the body, a pair of assembled bogies and the screws to fit them but everything else on a single black plastic sprue. I don't remember ever having a missing part (except in my own carpet!)  

I think CKD and Shake the Box may have had something to do with avoiding higher sales taxes on complete "toys" though in the American case it may simply have been that avoiding five minutes of final assembly created savings of fairly expensive US labour costs as well as needing less packaging (The Kadee couplers I used at that time also came partly unassembled unlike the NEM type I use now)

This may also have had something to do with using local final assembly to avoid a large chunk of import duties and the Tri-ang CKDs may have been what they exported anyway in rather greater bulk for local factory assembly in Australia etc. 

CKD kits were simply the R-T-R models unassembled; by supplying them in this form, there was a reduced rate of Purchase Tax (silliness didn't start with VAT). Trix also supplied their BR coaches in this format.

[Joseph_Pestell]

6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I'll have a go.

Hornby, Hornby Railroad, Arnold, Electrotren, Jouef, Lima, Lima Expert, Rivarossi, Pocher, Corgi, Airfix, Scalextric, Humbrol,

 

Failed by two for the moment. But I have not had my second coffee yet.

 

Minus one from this list. They sold Pocher (and a large stock of 1:8 Ducati kits) to a Danish firm in 2017.

[The Stationmaster]

57 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

Let's see...

 

GWR to BR(W) - different name, largely the same staff.

The original Great Western franchise - staff from BR moved over of course and wasn't the franchise a BR management bid?

Then the buy-out by First.

 

Although GWR's network isn't the same and it is a passenger train operator with no freight or infrastructure responsibility, I'd say there is still significant continuity going back to the 'real' GWR.

I'm far from sure what the continuity would be though, in exactly the same way, I can't see any continuity other than the name when it comes to the Hornby brand.  Although in recent years some of the Hornby branded model railway has perhaps come nearer to the sort of railway ideal that used to be portrayed in the pages of the 'Meccano Magazine' than most of Hornby Railways (as opposed to Hornby Dublo) ever did.

 

As far as today's GWR is concerned - and sorry here to go OT - the connection with BR(W), let alone the real GWR is tenuous to say the least.  True some former WR staff are no doubt still working for GWR but those who set the mood and methods within the WR have long since left and there are no senior people in today's organisation who have much knowledge, or probably any management experience, of what it was like prior to sectorisation or even privatisation.  

 

I'm not saying that is necessarily a bad thing because, just as is the case with the company currently using the brand name Hornby, today's GWR is a very different business working in very different circumstances from the previous company to have that name.  Times have changed, what companies have to do has changed because they now operate in very different business environments than was the case for those who devised and originally had the name.  I worked for the WR for the last quarter of a century - and thus the greater part - of its existence and from what I now hear from outside the fence I know that today's GWR is a very different organisation doing some very different things for different reasons while much of what I did in some of my WR jobs is now firmly in the hands of Network Rail.

 

So, once again, it is like today's Hornby with little or no manufacturing directly managed but instead bought in.  But it still originates, researches, and designs its products and decides whether or not to put them into the marketplace and how much to charge for them and it still has to be run and function as a multi-faceted organisation working in what it has to recognise as an increasingly competitive environment for many of its brands.    The name is the same but the company isn't, it simply has a very recognisable brand which LCD is now using a particular strength of the business.  

 

And odd though it may sound two of Hornby's emergent competitors of recent years are based far nearer to the historic home of Hornby's original manufacturing and business base than the company now bearing the name.

[Georgeconna]

3 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

As far as plastic kits go - Tooling costs £100k, about the same as a loco.

 

RRP £119.99

 

5000 identical units sold.

 

Assembly costs - nill (it falls out of the machine and goes in a box)

 

 

If I were Hornby, I'd be looking very closely at the plastic kit market. The profit margin appears to be much better than model railways. The Hellcat isn't the first kit like this from the firm either, the Mosquito proved the market. 

 

The 1/24 Typhoons were that price or more,  the price Dropped way down to even £50 in some places and I still managed to walk away from buying it  10 Years ago you could not of stopped me. 

 

I discovered you could actually get a pretty close to scale flyable RC aeroplane for that cash that you can have some great times with. I made the move back from Overpriced plastic kits to ARTF aircraft plus I can get outside in the fresh air from time to time. 

 

For Instance a Durafly D.H.100 Vampire "Canadian Edition" 70mm EDF Jet 1100mm (PNF) you can get from less than 125 notes, Servos, rec, Ok you need a radio n battery. 

I spose its where your interest lies, but the current crop of overpriced plastic kits, the added frenzy to add in every aftermarket add on you can get is gone a bit daft and has turned me off it big time plus the stuff languishes in the loft until chucked out due to damage etc.

 

cheers

 

George

 

 

 

 

[Georgeconna]

Sneak Peak:

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p072q8r9

[dibber25]

1 hour ago, Coryton said:

 

It seems to be taken for granted on here that what's made in China stays in China....but wasn't there a comment further back from Hornby contradicting that?

Why would you bring tools to the UK (they are very heavy and expensive to move) when you have no machinery on which to run them and will simply need to return them to China the next time you want to run them? I have certainly never been told by Hornby that they've brought China-made tools to the UK. (CJL)

[Roddy Angus]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Whilst I accept that aircraft and military modelling etc. uses other media, such as resin casting, 3-D printing etc., to what extent is etched brass or nickel silver used, apart from their use as detailing items? In other words, do these branches of the hobby have their equivalent of Finney or High Level etched loco kits?

 

There are kits available which are made from etched parts only.  There is one which is a WW1 aircraft where the complete structure, including wing ribs etc, are made from brass.

 

If you want to play one upmanship  are there any model rail kits which are made from balsa wood and tissue and can then fly? This is a rhetorical question of course.  The use of brass etches, particularly in military modelling far outstrips its use in model rail.

 

Roddy

[Coryton]

16 minutes ago, dibber25 said:

Why would you bring tools to the UK (they are very heavy and expensive to move) when you have no machinery on which to run them and will simply need to return them to China the next time you want to run them? I have certainly never been told by Hornby that they've brought China-made tools to the UK. (CJL)

 

I could speculate on why you might do that but that's all it would be.

 

On the other hand, from earlier in this thread:

 

(Apologies for the cut-and-paste - I don't know how to use the quote function across pages):

 

"Chief Operations Officer Tim Mulhall has sent over a few explanatory notes:

 

  Quote

...

Plus, what makes people think tooling moved to China stayed there. I’m sat not 50 yards from tooling which was used in the last 12 months. That has almost certainly been happening throughout the period since 2000 when production moved to China.

..."

 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

A Hawker Hunter kit. I'm not sure I would want to build one of those given I was in Shoreham on that terrible day

[Coryton]

Just now, Roddy Angus said:

If you want to play one upmanship  are there any model rail kits which are made from balsa wood and tissue and can then fly?

 

TO answer your rhetorical question, no, I wouldn't have thought so, but how many aircraft kits can run along rails?

[Widnes Model Centre]

18 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

TO answer your rhetorical question, no, I wouldn't have thought so, but how many aircraft kits can run along rails?

 

I can find one so far. Liberal use of the word "aircraft".

Edited March 8, 2019 by Widnes Model Centre

[CloggyDog]

24 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

TO answer your rhetorical question, no, I wouldn't have thought so, but how many aircraft kits can run along rails?

 

Also at SMW 2018 was a 1/72 model of an aircraft that did run (albeit briefly) on rails...

 

IMG_20181111_110322 by Alan Monk, on Flickr

 

This particular F4 Phantom, rather nicely modelled and part of the F4 SIG display.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2019 by CloggyDog

[M.Riddell]

14 minutes ago, The Evil Bus Driver said:

A Hawker Hunter kit. I'm not sure I would want to build one of those given I was in Shoreham on that terrible day

 

There wasn't actually anything wrong with the aircraft itself, it appears that the pilot was very much at fault. The new 1/48 Airfix kit as a different mark - a single seat fighter rather than a twin seat T.Mk 7 trainer like the accident aircraft. Not that Airfix have any intention of doing the two-seater for the foreseeable future so Shoreham does cast a shadow.

 

17 minutes ago, Coryton said:

 

TO answer your rhetorical question, no, I wouldn't have thought so, but how many aircraft kits can run along rails?

 

Theoretically someone could buy the Airfix 1/48 Supermarine Walrus and mount it on a working model of the aircraft catapult of a battleship or cruiser. You would need a net to catch it though!

 

Ultimately we're comparing the proverbial apples and oranges - it's all modelling whether the subject ends up a static display item or not. As was written up-thread what should happen, ideally, is that the various communities actually talk to one another rather than hermetically seal themselves off due to a misguided sense of what is and isn't "true" modelling.

 

In Hornby/Airfix we have a company that straddles more than one genre so all have an interest in how well or not they're doing

 

Mike.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

6 minutes ago, M.Riddell said:

 

There wasn't actually anything wrong with the aircraft itself, it appears that the pilot was very much at fault. The new 1/48 Airfix kit as a different mark - a single seat fighter rather than a twin seat T.Mk 7 trainer like the accident aircraft. Not that Airfix have any intention of doing the two-seater for the foreseeable future so Shoreham does cast a shadow.

 

 

 

I know, although I grew up in Shoreham plus I know someone who lost his brother so the whole thing has  left a bad taste for me.

 

That said the Hellcat does look tasty and he did a good job painting that engine assembly.

 

 

[railroadbill]

44 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

I can find one so far. Liberal use of the word "aircraft".

 

Good grief! 

 

Also, those of us of a certain age may recall Gerry Anderson's  Fireball XL5  which (and I'm searching back through the mists of a long time here)  took off  along rails that curved up at the end.  There must have been a kit of it at the time...