BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Ravenser]

3 hours ago, Mike Storey said:

 

So, why would Hornby (or anyone else) bother making any other products?

 

(I can speculate, but would rather hear from those of you in, or very much closer to, the trade.)

 

 

Because the Hellcat is a top of the range item - the bulk of the plastic kit market is much smaller and lower priced. Someone commented about selling a modeller such a kit - and not seeing him again for 6 months. Given that a very skilled and experienced modeller with a huge incentive only just finished the kit in 2 months work, piling in the hours, I can believe that.

 

So - you can sell 2 Hellcat-equivalents per year to the plastic kit modeller. That's £250 spend per annum.

 

Meanwhile we read on here of people expecting to buy 10 locos in a year. Plus some wagons and coaches. That's £2000 spend per annum

[Darius43]

5 hours ago, Ravenser said:

 

Because the Hellcat is a top of the range item - the bulk of the plastic kit market is much smaller and lower priced. Someone commented about selling a modeller such a kit - and not seeing him again for 6 months. Given that a very skilled and experienced modeller with a huge incentive only just finished the kit in 2 months work, piling in the hours, I can believe that.

 

So - you can sell 2 Hellcat-equivalents per year to the plastic kit modeller. That's £250 spend per annum.

 

Meanwhile we read on here of people expecting to buy 10 locos in a year. Plus some wagons and coaches. That's £2000 spend per annum

 

Speaking as a former avid plastic aircraft kit modeller, the number of kits that I would buy in any given year far outstripped the number that I would build in the same year.  SABLE indeed.  

 

Judging by the number of “how big is your stash” topics in the model aircraft version of RMWeb, I was not alone in this behaviour.

 

To paraphrase SNL’s GW Bush: don’t misunderestimate the spending power of plastic kit builders.

 

Cheers

 

Darius

[TEAMYAKIMA]

Just quickly returning to the modelling content of the programme, may I highlight the re-surfacing of Twickenham & District MRC's long departed 4mm GWR layout TADMERE.

 

Filmed in the 1970's for Bob Symes' MODEL WORLD series I was somewhat gobsmacked to see it feature in the opening sequence of this programme some 45 years later!

 

That piece of film is truly a gift that keeps on giving.

[jjb1970]

On crowd funding, I am not a fan of crowd funding but it is like anything else in that it can be done well or it can be done badly. Revolution do it well, but I think the image of the concept has been badly hit by one particular company which has picked up something of a reputation for over promising and under delivering and which has become pretty much reliant on crowd funding.

 

On SK, I thought the program showed his positive side well. He clearly does love Hornby and has a passion for their product. His soft skills and ability to connect with customers etc are clearly still there. On the other hand I must admit I thought there was something slightly unpleasant about the attempt to re-write history to present the Hornby story almost as one which went horribly wrong after SK's departure and blaming the following management for all their woes. It'd be interesting if James May pushed SK on the reasons for the 2012 Olympic tat fiasco, becoming dangerously reliant on Sanda Kan and ending up without a manufacturer, the design clever debacle (I still honestly believe that design clever was a good idea if well executed, it was another example of bad execution rather than an inherently bad idea IMO), the confusing range structure (stuff made using antiquated old tools costing virtually as much as state of the art new models and the failure to really identify what Railroad is trying to achieve) etc which all happened on SK's watch and which dug Hornby into the hole that the last management team were being scape goated for. The individual that impressed me was not SK, it was LD. I must admit I had not been a hot fan of his but the impression he gave me was of a very hard headed and competent individual with a plan and who is looking forward (SK gave me the impression of somebody who could only view the future in terms of the past).

 

Either way, thoroughly entertaining TV.

[jjb1970]

On whether or not Hornby should continue to offer a full range, scenic, track, electrics, control etc as well as rolling stock, I'd be inclined to also approach this from the perspective of what sells and what makes a profit. If all that stuff turns a profit and sells well then keep it, if it is being subsidised by high rolling stock sales then I think it's a fair question to ask whether it is worth keeping. I don't know the answer as I've no idea what the figures look like but my impression of LD is that he will be doing that analysis and making hard headed decisions.

 

Personally I do think there is a place for a lower cost entry level range, not just for the residual train set market but also there are plenty of adult hobbyists who are happy with the new generation Railroad tooling and who like operating trains more than going to the Nth degree on super detail in rolling stock. Piko have demonstrated how to develop a multi-tiered range (they have three HO levels, full fat classic, mid level expert and entry level hobby, I believe they're now adding a fourth, expert plus), another one is Scale Trains in the US. Railroad has always seemed to be a bit confused, is it low cost toys, is it slightly lower spec scale models for the enthusiast, is it just a graveyard for old tooling that isn't good enough to exist in the main range anymore, is it something else? Unlike Piko and Scale Trains which have carefully developed a multi-tier range concept based on defined target audiences and with the product optimised for each segment (in Piko's case the tooling is specifically developed for a given tier in their range, in Scale Trains case they have developed something like "design clever" to allow them to offer the same tooling in different tiers but they have done it very well) the Hornby Railroad range just seems like a bit of a dust bin.

[RedgateModels]

12 hours ago, Pteremy said:

Does anyone moderate the moderators?

 

It's been known in the past ....

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 

 

On SK, I thought the program showed his positive side well. He clearly does love Hornby and has a passion for their product. His soft skills and ability to connect with customers etc are clearly still there. On the other hand I must admit I thought there was something slightly unpleasant about the attempt to re-write history to present the Hornby story almost as one which went horribly wrong after SK's departure and blaming the following management for all their woes. It'd be interesting if James May pushed SK on the reasons for the 2012 Olympic tat fiasco, becoming dangerously reliant on Sanda Kan and ending up without a manufacturer, the design clever debacle (I still honestly believe that design clever was a good idea if well executed, it was another example of bad execution rather than an inherently bad idea IMO), the confusing range structure (stuff made using antiquated old tools costing virtually as much as state of the art new models and the failure to really identify what Railroad is trying to achieve) etc which all happened on SK's watch and which dug Hornby into the hole that the last management team were being scape goated for. The individual that impressed me was not SK, it was LD. I must admit I had not been a hot fan of his but the impression he gave me was of a very hard headed and competent individual with a plan and who is looking forward (SK gave me the impression of somebody who could only view the future in terms of the past).

 

Either way, thoroughly entertaining TV.

 

I dont think that James May is with the film crew - he just seems to be providing the voice over. I'm not sure the director/cameraman will be pushing much. 

 

I do agree that Hornby's problems are not solely those of the last set of Management. Arguably, the rot set it 3 or 4 sets of management ago. The problem has been every new set of management have been brought in to "solve the problems of the last lot", and have actually caused problems of their own - for varying reasons. What any business needs to do is deliver products that customers want to buy, at the prices that they want to pay, while still making a profit for the manufacturer. Whats happened in the past, eg with Design Clever, is Hornby have produced products customers dont want, or at prices they dont want to pay. Again, not solely a fault of the last management.

 

I get the impression that SK has a much more hands-on role now than in the past. Previously, he would have to convince the management to sign off on a project, or agree to develop something. Sometimes he would have to have done things he thought were wrong, because the Boss said thats what they wanted. From the first episode, I think him and Lynton are working well as a team, SK has the authority he needs to drive, at least the Railway side, of the business forward, developing what he wants, how he wants.

 

Will that work? Well, Simon has bags of experience within the industry. If anyone can do that job well, its him.

 

[Phil Parker]

44 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I dont think that James May is with the film crew - he just seems to be providing the voice over. I'm not sure the director/cameraman will be pushing much. 

 

I saw several filming sessions and no James May. I suspect he did the voice over, topped and tailed the show and lent his name to the title.

[RedgateModels]

50 minutes ago, JohnR said:

I get the impression that SK has a much more hands-on role now than in the past. Previously, he would have to convince the management to sign off on a project, or agree to develop something. Sometimes he would have to have done things he thought were wrong, because the Boss said thats what they wanted. From the first episode, I think him and Lynton are working well as a team, SK has the authority he needs to drive, at least the Railway side, of the business forward, developing what he wants, how he wants.

 

Agreed, Simon's hands were largely tied before, now he has much more of a say I think. All good for Hornby

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

...Personally I do think there is a place for a lower cost entry level range, not just for the residual train set market but also there are plenty of adult hobbyists who are happy with the new generation Railroad tooling and who like operating trains more than going to the Nth degree on super detail in rolling stock...

We had a version of this discussion years ago, and I still believe now what I then put forward. The concept of a simpler basic product range, and a 'full fat' range is sound, if well executed. No blurring, the old product and subsequent purpose designed basic models in 'basic'; new high grade toolings in 'full fat'.

 

Branding those ranges has to be got right. The sentiment for 'Hornby' needs to be maintained by applying that famous brand name to the basic product. The 'full fat' product is purchased less on sentiment, more on the overall quality it represents. The customers for this are proving daily that they will purchase good product from business names with no long term record in the field. My suggestion of the branding style - which I bounced off the ever affable SK during his previous time with Hornby - might be something like 'Premier Line by Hornby'.

[Jeff Smith]

You have to remember that this, as with the previous two 'challenge' productions, is a reality show and as such is edited for drama.  I believe it is a mistake to judge situations on what you see on screen.  The real informative footage is probably on the cutting room floor......as the used to say in the world of celluloid.

[The Stationmaster]

10 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

You have to remember that this, as with the previous two 'challenge' productions, is a reality show and as such is edited for drama.  I believe it is a mistake to judge situations on what you see on screen.  The real informative footage is probably on the cutting room floor......as the used to say in the world of celluloid.

So are you saying we should approach it with a degree of scepticism and that it is as much an entertainment and PR job rather than a particular reflection of various realities?

[Jeff Smith]

Yes

[Ravenser]

4 hours ago, JohnR said:

 

......What any business needs to do is deliver products that customers want to buy, at the prices that they want to pay, while still making a profit for the manufacturer. Whats happened in the past, eg with Design Clever, is Hornby have produced products customers dont want, or at prices they dont want to pay. Again, not solely a fault of the last management......

 

 

"Design Clever" is hauled up for ritual stoning on a regular basis.

 

However when I try to compile a list of these "products customers don't want at a price they don't want to pay"  under Design Clever I come up with:

 

Pendolinos, Javelins, 153s, 2BIL, Sentinel, Railroad Mk1s, Tornado, P2, 9F

 

That doesn't look like a list of product disasters to me. (Admission - I have 3 x 153s - light years better than the ex Dapol 155)

[PMP]

12 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

"Design Clever" is hauled up for ritual stoning on a regular basis.

 

However when I try to compile a list of these "products customers don't want at a price they don't want to pay"  under Design Clever I come up with:

 

Pendolinos, Javelins, 153s, 2BIL, Sentinel, Railroad Mk1s, Tornado, P2, 9F

 

That doesn't look like a list of product disasters to me. 

 

Add the 52/72XX too, not their best ever models, but a more than acceptable starting place. Duke of Gloucester, GWR shunters truck, LMS CCT were also of that ‘era’.

[papagolfjuliet]

On 07/03/2019 at 23:12, MrTea said:

 

Has anybody else had the thought that the some scrapped tools could quite easily have been from the now-infamous 2012 Olympic tat?

 

Presumably most of us would be glad to see the back of those as it’s a reminder of one of the biggest commercial mis-steps the company made prior to SK’s departure?

 

 It was stated that the only surviving Hornby tool which hadn't gone to China was the tunnel. Off the top of my head I'd say that means the APT, the Australian diesel and brake van, the strange US outline 0-4-0T, and a couple of wagons. Lord knows how much Tri-ang, Scalextric, Airfix, Corgi, and Lima stuff was destroyed, although some of the earlier Tri-ang tools were sold to an Indian company years ago.

[Ravenser]

1 minute ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

 It was stated that the only surviving Hornby tool which hadn't gone to China was the tunnel. Off the top of my head I'd say that means the APT, the Australian diesel and brake van, the strange US outline 0-4-0T, and a couple of wagons. Lord knows how much Tri-ang, Scalextric, Airfix, Corgi, and Lima stuff was destroyed, although some of the earlier Tri-ang tools were sold to an Indian company years ago.

 

It presumably means all the old Aussie HO tooling of the 1970s has gone , not just the Transcontinental double ended diesel (which bore a remarkable resemblance to a Victorian Railways B-class) 

 

Nearly all the Lima stuff survives - so the Crab, King, J50 and 94xx are casualties

[papagolfjuliet]

11 minutes ago, Ravenser said:

 

It presumably means all the old Aussie HO tooling of the 1970s has gone , not just the Transcontinental double ended diesel (which bore a remarkable resemblance to a Victorian Railways B-class) 

 

 

Most of that stuff was leftover Tri-ang Transcontinental kit though. I was thinking of the two items tooled up by Hornby especially for the Aussie market in the late Seventies, specifically the VR S Class diesel and Z brake van. How many Tri-ang - as opposed to Hornby - HO tools survive which were not sold to India is another question.

 

That said, if by 'Hornby' the archivist also meant 'Tri-ang' then that's pretty much everything gone.

Edited March 12, 2019 by papagolfjuliet

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, Ravenser said:

 

"Design Clever" is hauled up for ritual stoning on a regular basis.

 

However when I try to compile a list of these "products customers don't want at a price they don't want to pay"  under Design Clever I come up with:

 

Pendolinos, Javelins, 153s, 2BIL, Sentinel, Railroad Mk1s, Tornado, P2, 9F

 

That doesn't look like a list of product disasters to me. (Admission - I have 3 x 153s - light years better than the ex Dapol 155)

 

 

You missed out the "at a price they want". All those products were too expensive for the level of detail provided. 

[PMP]

44 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

 

You missed out the "at a price they want". All those products were too expensive for the level of detail provided. 

 

Really? Sentinel £55 , Mk1’s £25, DoG around £85 as I recall. And those were too expensive?

[The Johnster]

I don't think they were expensive for the detail provide; the 42xx was a very well detailed model, but poorly designed and a poor performer in an effort to keep a lid on costs.  I have the revamped version with a 'proper' chassis and am very happy with it; paid £85 for it a year ago brand new.  It performs beautifully, is smooth, slow, and powerful, but I wouldn't make any statement to the effect that the lid is still on costs...

[Deltic]

On 07/03/2019 at 06:49, jjb1970 said:

I thought the last management team that got the order of the boot to bring in LD had a lot of good ideas, particularly a conscious decision to refocus back to high quality products and the need to maintain a steady stream of new items. Others have noted it but the Hellcat was obviously initiated and developed before LD arrived (the idea that such a kit would be sat in a cupboard ignored until LD had the vision to produce the thing is clearly absurd) and the Hornby initiative with sound and new locomotives were a hangover from what went before. Which indicates the old team(s) wasn't (weren't) as completely inept as claimed. The last lot were only in the job a few months and got kicked out before any of their ideas could come to fruition but on the product development side LD inherited a company that was already going in the right direction and with plenty of excellent project in the pipeline.

 

Whilst it might appear odd, that is what happened - the previous management could not see it selling.  Same with the Terrier, this was dropped when Simon left.  You have to remember that the vast majority of the releases during the last team being in place were actually the products of Simon and those around him.  The release year will see work that can stretch back over a number of prior years, not just the 12 months before being revealed. For example I was told that Clan Line was in development for almost 5 years before being actually shown in a catalogue and then being made available.

 

From the Retailer aspect the previous team did the market and the Brand(s) no favours, with their sales attitude - Black Friday sales et. Destroying the confidence of the Public and the Trade alike. Why order/buy now when no doubt they will be discounted due to low sales in a few months time.  This attitude helped Corgi sit down, as a customer could wait 6 months and the non certified item will be at 50% cost to purchase. Result Corgi were placed on sale and purchased by Hornby Hobbies, at a very reasonable cost  - given the stock sitting around along with access to old moulds etc.

 

The mistakes of the past will not be sorted in a one year timeframe, Hornby should be admired for being so open and you also need to look at all the Brands under their care which need support and nuture.

[The Stationmaster]

11 hours ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

 It was stated that the only surviving Hornby tool which hadn't gone to China was the tunnel. Off the top of my head I'd say that means the APT, the Australian diesel and brake van, the strange US outline 0-4-0T, and a couple of wagons. Lord knows how much Tri-ang, Scalextric, Airfix, Corgi, and Lima stuff was destroyed, although some of the earlier Tri-ang tools were sold to an Indian company years ago.

Not sure it translates like that?  

 

If 'the only surviving Hornby tool which hadn't gone to China' is the tunnel does that mean all the other Hornby tools went to China?   We know from past statements that certain tools such as the Blue Pullman were assessed to see if it would be worthwhile sending them to China and the tool was found to be in poor condition and not usable.  So how many other Hornby tools were like that and were scrapped because they were no longer usable?  And we also know that a lot of very old tools have made their way to China because models made using them were released last year and are being released this year (or, for example,  have the Dean Single and original clerestories been retooled?).  So is there a definitive list of what went to China and an equally definitive list of what wasn't sent and why it wasn't sent?

 

Presumably Airfix tools have not been sent to China anyway but have gone to India and recent releases indicate that quite a lot of old Airfix tooling has survived (unless new tooling is being made?).  Similarly wagon tooling taken over from Dapol has obviously gone to China as it is still being used.  What ever happened to Lima tooling is a different issue as surely the first question has to be how much of it was actually moved to Margate in the first place let alone what has or hasn't happened to it subsequently?

 

As I said previously one would have hoped that with tooling being an expensive investment Hornby would have had proper records and from them would know what has gone where and what has been written off and scrapped.   But looking through files of course doesn't make such good television.

Edited March 13, 2019 by The Stationmaster
Correct error re Dean Single

[Deltic]

On 07/03/2019 at 19:29, woodenhead said:

Hornby are probably the last company to offer everything - locos, coaches, wagons, buildings, track and controllers, Bachmann do almost everything but their track range isn't as complete as Hornby's.

I understand that their range is the old Made in Austria Hornby trackwork, just turn one over and look at the codes and where the Hornby name was on the sleepering.

[Deltic]

On 08/03/2019 at 07:58, t8hants said:

Not being very up to speed with the modern hobby, I am slightly puzzled by the apparent deep concern over the lost moulds, surely most of the older moulds would produce something no longer considered up to standard for today's modeler. 

The point is that they could have been Airfix moulds, not just railway related. The introduction of the Airfix Vintage Range has ensured that some older models which could only be obtained through auction sites at high prices can once again be purchased new - and in many cases at a lower cost.

 

In addition Hornby very rarely disposed of moulds, so that would likely include Minic and TT models.  I know that a few years back the 3mm Society sought to see if there was any potential for re-runs of certain models / parts.

 

The clear-out was to just reduce storage and I think at £50 a Ton, you saw a great many £10K moulds get lost forever - hence the dismay of may in Hornby today.