BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Widnes Model Centre]

 

Dress codes?

 

When we go to these type of presentations, more often than not we will have travelled some distance be it by road, rail or air. Sometimes involving overnight stays in hotels. The vast majority of us dress down. This is an industry were a lot of us are meeting friends and acquaintances that we may not of had any contact with since the previous year. The atmosphere is very relaxed and no one feels uncomfortable.( Well that is what usually happens!) The presenting company will normally be the one in the suits. This also helps the newcomer to identify who is running the show.

 

The last visitor to enter our shop immaculately dressed and with honest intentions turned out to be the VAT inspector.

 

Back to the programme.

[hayfield]

28 minutes ago, 57xx said:

 

Indeed, the missing bit for me was the pause in the project. So they started the project, canned it at the CAD stage, then dusted it off after the Rails announcement. So SK was being very disingenuous when he tried to deny it being a spoiler and implied they had been running the project for years.

 

Hornby were selling both locos prior to the other two companies stepping into the ring by commissioning their own products, coupled with the terrier being one of Hornby's best sellers. It could be argued that Hornby was protecting its own market share. I think if any of us owned a company and some one set up to be in competition with one of our products, we all would do things to protect our own interests. Look how Hattons set up their banners over the Hornby display, clearly they were seeking a marketing advantage, normal business practices in all cases.

 

The only thing I thought was a bit of a stretch was the picture of Frank Hornby giving an impression he was part of this companies past, the original name of the company was Lines brothers selling their model railway products under the Triang banner, still as both companies have had several owners and being merged under the same banner there is some form of a link

 

I enjoyed this program as much as the first, I do not buy RTR 00 gauge items but am far more tempted to do so after this program. This is the second series about our hobby within a year and both must have had a positive effect on our hobby, well done to all involved 

[88D]

13 hours ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

I never said it was a go at Liverpool.

 

But I do remember how my mother felt when she left Binns Road for the last time. She contemplated moving but decided to take her skills into the aerospace industry.

Airfix? Or 12” to the foot?

[Andy Hayter]

5 minutes ago, S&CR said:

 

. If I were Rails or Hattons I would not publicise any new loco now until much later in the development process, so Hornby would be unable to react in time.

 

 

 

The upside of this is that it will make spoilers much more difficult to produce.  The downside is that the producer has a much narrower view of how many he can sell and how many to manufacture.  Earlier announcement allows a much bigger up-take through pre-orders.  There are risks both ways.

[Georgeconna]

 

Certainly an Enjoyable Watch.

 

Going against the grain of a lot of posters here. I was chatting to a few chaps after the show the concenus was that the attittude Rails put out did not come across that good (other words were used!) , I thought  the banner positoning was a very cheeky if not brazen. If I  had a stand there I would be a bit miffed myself so understood Simons concerns. 

 

Rails  / Hattons  obviously now see a Cash cow at producing these themselves in house and cutting out the middle man, lets hope the cost saving can be passed onwards to the punters.  Somehow Feeling sorry for all the modellers that dont have top class 66's  to run I am sure aint on the fist box to tick on thier list.

 

Surely f you dip into making Terrier or Class 66 that most likely could come from one of the big manufactuers you take the chance with doing so. I did have to laugh at Hattons being peeved off, "Surpirise" Hornby produces popular locomotive! Cue 66 Bargain cornor on the Hattons Mag Averts. You'd be mad to buy them at full price!!

 

Thanks god Hornby and Baccers as still plodding along we would have a lot less choice out there unless you like 66's and Terriers if they did not exist.

 

Anyhow good luck to all the chaps makeing stuff for us be it Kernow, Hattons or Rails, Let shope it works out for everyone.

 

cheers

 

George

 

 

[88D]

13 hours ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

I never said it was a go at Liverpool.

 

But I do remember how my mother felt when she left Binns Road for the last time. She contemplated moving but decided to take her skills into the aerospace industry.

Airfix? Or 12” to the foot?

[Waverley47708]

I have to say I enjoyed both episodes, but the second episode was absolutely fascinating TV.

 

The Class 66 and Terrier moments between Hornby, Rails and Hattons were simply fascinating, I could not stop watching even though it got a bit awkward and tense.  These are three players in the hobby I have dealt with and feel positive about over many, many years.  What an amazing insight, I imagine the meeting at the unveiling would have been tense enough and hope that the presence of the camera was not just sprung on Rail and Hatton's.  It was good that they got to have there say and did not appear to be hindered by the cameras.  

 

I am sure Hornbys 66s in the same liveries will see some reduction in sales for Hatton 66s, but given the different level of detail I am not sure they are really going head to head.  The 66 is not a model I am familiar with, but if I look at the Class 47 analogy, I buy Bachmann 47s not Horney Railroad 47, that said for the future of our hobby we need railroad type 47s and 66s so that younger ones can afford them and not damage any wee fiddly bits.

 

I have met Simon a number of times, despite the fact he must meet 1000s of modellers he always has time for a chat and comes across as a thoroughly decent guy who remembers having spoken to your before.

 

The company I did feel sorry for in all of this is Bachmann, hardly a mention and no recognition of their status as a major manufacturer of quality models.  When I got back into the hobby in the late 90s they were miles ahead of Hornby for diesel and electric models.

 

 

 

[57xx]

43 minutes ago, justin1985 said:

But the whole premise of "young people only want computer games" is fundamentally flawed, and like the perpetual "the hobby is dying off" conversations, a broken record.

[Selkent]

I was approached very early on before filming by the production company  with the premis that the series will be all about why the public and model railway fans are turning their backs on Hornby and their customer base.  After watching both episodes it did seem  Hornby had more of a say on content and direction and it less of a independant documentry commisioned by the BBC. 

 

I know that hours of filming was done speaking to many end users of Hornby products, of this three hours of filming done at our social drinkies night we run for model railway fans at my venue each month in London

 

I watched loads of very well informed and some loyal and some not so loyal Hornby customers give hours of reasons why they look at Bachmann, Peco and other products over Hornby.  A great interview by someone I observed  just spoke about the plastic station platform which has been churned out since the 1970's by  Hornby and still churned out at a expensive end user rate, while other companies use the latest laser cut designs at a cheaper end price, and the lack of excitment around Hornby products and innovation. 

 

The time with Gerald in Episode 1 and the comments about many being on the end of the spectrum was I thought actually very lackluster TV. I liked James May and  used comments which were very James May and was based on what he was presented before him in the final edit and came across cynical enough to know Hornby were not controlling that aspect of the programme.  I know Gerald and he is a fine and commited railway modeller as are the Batcombe guys, but even then some of the younger members of Batcombe were not interviewed and I for one know that while the tv crew were interviewing older men at my venue, all the time there was a 18 year old female, sitting quietly in the corner, who   attends model rail shows, helps with the running of layouts, helps out at shows   and more importantly is turning out to be a  very good model maker and made during the interviews an amazing  small model of Stevenson Rocket with just bluetac, they simply ignored her.   

 

No mention of how Hornby have in recent years tried to shaft retailers with their buy direct policy, or their grab it Saturday sales which undercut the price sold to retailers thus flooding the resale market. 

 

Even the fight between Rails and Hornby, really!   Rails is a large customer of Hornby, so how many now would have visited Rails website after the airing of the show and been able to mail order Hornby products if the wish to.   Why no images of the Bachmann stands, and other true rivals to Hornby.  

 

Here is the model railway modeller and layout helper who they didnt interview

 

 

 

 

[Ravenser]

14 hours ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

More interesting than part 1. The most revealing aspect was the new product designer getting the dimensions wrong on what should be standard mechanism parts. Insufficient attention to having basic mechanism elements standardised: that should be automated by now so the designer cannot create an error.

 

The line from Hattons was 'There wasn't sufficient product volume from you, we went into production to defend our business'. Hope Hornby truly heard that. Don't make that mistake again.

 

The complaint. That'll be forgotten when Hattons 66 sells strongly. It's Bachmann who will suffer, as above the Limby serves a different sector.

 

People quickly knocking together a display for retail promotion purposes, which will probably be in landfill by now?

 

 

Hmm...  "Hornby haven't made enough stuff lately, so we were forced to "take out" one of Bachmann's bread and butter models... "  Doesn't quite follow

 

Hattons were indeed claiming that the manufacturers should back off when the box-shifters decide to target an existing manufacturer's model . But not the other way round.

 

Draping banners  promoting your new model "taking out " a manufacturer's long-standing product ... behind and dominating the said targetted manufacturer's stand at a major trade fair is extremely aggressive behaviour 

 

The Terrier saga isn't just good TV - it gets right to the heart of the issue of retailers challenging existing manufacturers , and the "changing structure of the trade".  Issues which have been debated on enough threads here, IOt also showcases the big box-shifters and their place in the hobby eco-system  . Enough people on here have said it's a major issue facing Hornby (and Bachmann!)

 

Anyone notice that the Hornby Terrier is released in the week the programme went to air? Biggest ever TV commercial for a new model ....

 

And biggest ever TV commercial for Hattons and Rails (not to mention the Rails Terrier and the Hattons 66)

 

But I couldn't help watching the sequence of SK and co fretting about the Terrier dome without an impulse to shout "but you haven't noticed the buffers aren't recessed!!!"

 

   

[The Stationmaster]

I think the banner business was ridiculous theatre rather than anything else although it might well have been there to add effect to something later in the programme.  

 

Surely Rails must have ordered their banners once they had cleared their ability to use them with the Warley show organisers/NEC,.  (And quite possibly before they even had full details of the show floor plan?)   I somehow can't see the rather wild theory that they only put them up because they were behind Hornby's stand as having any real credence at all.   I thought it rather childish to be honest but it was perhaps part of a story based narrative to lead us towards the 'big confrontation' when John from Rails saw the great revelation at the Hornby retailers' presentation.   And let's face it Rails were not the only people at that show who has banners above their stand - Hornby were the ones who didn't and the ones who went for a rather low stand back which lacked the visual impact of quite a number of other manufacturers', and even retailers' stands.

 

Incidentally it is of course hardly surprising that Hornby's model railway (we assume) orders have increased year-on-year compared with 2018 as LCD has of course banished any thought of firesales of surplus stock which was bound to do exactly what he intended - restore retailer confidence in ordering knowing that they weren't subsequently going to be undersold.  Add in a good product range with some popular additions/upgrades (in many cases originated and progressed under the 'evil' previous management) add some fun developments in Scalextric and a bit of attention grabbing for Airfix and it would be difficult not to get increased orders although the wider economic situation could well have dragged things the other way of course.

[GeoffAlan]

1 hour ago, 'CHARD said:

 

'Manufacturers have got what they deserve!'  Do you think said manufacturers would or could have survived the nineties had they not moved production abroad?  

 

'Crowd funding seems to work at least as well as Hornby!'  There are several threads on here that may further illuminate this area of expertise.

2011 Dapol announce n gauge class 142. 2019 first models on sale.  Both Dapol and Graham Farish announce J72, Dapol cancels fairly quickly, over 4 years later GF follow suit. That's no way to treat potential customers. I have no idea if the same thing happens in 00 but this sort of thing happens regularly in N gauge. 

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

I stand corrected, thank you! Notwithstanding that, I still think that competition is the essence of capitalism and that it is good for the consumer.

 

On further thinks I was impressed with SK but much less so with the blokes from Rails and Hattons. They both looked as though they had just finished a session on the allotment! SK, on the other hand, came across as an experienced manager who new what he was doing, while the other two blokes looked, quite apart from their sartorial elegance issues, as inexperienced big fish in a small pond. I think they are going to have to up their game.

 

I hope you haven't got an account at Rails or Hattons………...

[Ravenser]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I think the banner business was ridiculous theatre rather than anything else although it might well have been there to add effect to something later in the programme.  

 

Surely Rails must have ordered their banners once they had cleared their ability to use them with the Warley show organisers/NEC,.  (And quite possibly before they even had full details of the show floor plan?)   I somehow can't see the rather wild theory that they only put them up because they were behind Hornby's stand as having any real credence at all.   I thought it rather childish to be honest but it was perhaps part of a story based narrative to lead us towards the 'big confrontation' when John from Rails saw the great revelation at the Hornby retailers' presentation.   And let's face it Rails were not the only people at that show who has banners above their stand - Hornby were the ones who didn't and the ones who went for a rather low stand back which lacked the visual impact of quite a number of other manufacturers', and even retailers' stands.

 

Incidentally it is of course hardly surprising that Hornby's model railway (we assume) orders have increased year-on-year compared with 2018 as LCD has of course banished any thought of firesales of surplus stock which was bound to do exactly what he intended - restore retailer confidence in ordering knowing that they weren't subsequently going to be undersold.  Add in a good product range with some popular additions/upgrades (in many cases originated and progressed under the 'evil' previous management) add some fun developments in Scalextric and a bit of attention grabbing for Airfix and it would be difficult not to get increased orders although the wider economic situation could well have dragged things the other way of course.

 

 

No doubt Rails will have ordered the banners well in advance.

 

But the decision to deploy the banners - especially the Terrier banner -  facing outwards so that you saw them rising above the Hornby stand - might well have been taken after Rails saw the floorplan. SK's comment to Rails was that it would have been one thing if the banners were facing into Rails stand but this....

[Roddy Angus]

8 minutes ago, Selkent said:

I was approached very early on before filming by the production company  with the premis that the series will be all about why the public and model railway fans are turning their backs on Hornby and their customer base.  After watching both episodes it did seem  Hornby had more of a say on content and direction and it less of a independant documentry commisioned by the BBC. 

 

Perhaps the original intention was to do a hatchet job on Hornby but when they actually began filming they discovered that things weren't as bad as had been portrayed on social media.  Like model rail projects, most TV productions can take a long time from the idea to actual fruition.  If you look back 12 to 18 months ago you would have found a lot of views which supported the end of Hornby.  It may be that, rather than Hornby having a say on content and direction, the production company realised that the original prognosis was wrong.

 

Regards

 

Roddy

[Widnes Model Centre]

1 hour ago, 88D said:

Airfix? Or 12” to the foot?

 

The real stuff at Lucas Aerospace.

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

I’m hearing that episode 1 had over 400,000 viewers (measured at the start of the program).

Of course that doesn’t account for how many were watching from the previous program and subsequently turned over, or off, having decided not to continue watching.

 

Still that seems like quite good figures for a relatively obscure TV channel.

 

Ron

[Jeff Smith]

9 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

The real stuff at Lucas Aerospace.

 

 

Ah yes, joined Lucas Aerospace in 1983, it subsequently became Lucas Varity, TRW, Goodrich, UTAS and now Collins.  No doubt still claiming to have developed cycle lamps and Whittle jet engine controls......what's in a name......!

[Edwardian]

I think this whole banner business is an example of paranoia.

 

Why would I haul up banners into space and only have them one-sided?  Rails were intelligently taking advantage of the venue height to give prominence to their stand from everywhere in the hall.  High banners seem to have been the norm at the venue. Hornby failed to take advantage of the height available, so other banners could be seen over its somewhat lack-lustre stand.  Why is that someone else's fault?

 

As for some imagined Rails agenda, it was Mr Kohler who at that stage had secret plans to harm Rails, not the other way around. Rails and Dapol had been open about their plans. As to that:

 

• The Terrier was made in OO by Dapol.  Dapol made an award winning O Gauge Terrier, much superior to its old OO version.  Dapol made a N Gauge Terrier.

 

• Dapol's OO Terrier was hived off to Hornby who have run it for years after it should have bee re-tooled. It didn't.  How long was the market supposed to wait?

 

So, in what sense is the Terrier Hornby's model, that it has some exclusive moral right to produce?

 

Dapol was better placed to make an updated OO Terrier, having made its O and N Gauge models, indeed, having been the only one ever to have designed a RTR Terrier in any scale!   Further, reading between the self-justification, it's pretty clear that if Dapol hadn't committed to a new-tooled Terrier, Hornby wouldn't have done so any time soon. 

 

By the way, why a man was sent to K&ESR to record sound is unclear; Rails/Dapol have announced a sound version, but to my knowledge, Hornby hasn't.

 

Will Hornby hide a Terrier in its new 'sound van'?!?

[spamcan61]

3 hours ago, GeoffAlan said:

 Crowd Funding has been with us for several years and seems to work at least as well as Hornby et al in producing what the buyer wants.

Personally I don't think crowd funding can do more than fill in a few gaps at the top end of the market; heck imagine being a newcomer to the hobby and wanting to build up a layout with say 10 locos, 20 coaches, 50 wagons. Having to do that via crowd funding would probably take decades.

[Widnes Model Centre]

7 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

 

Ah yes, joined Lucas Aerospace in 1983, it subsequently became Lucas Varity, TRW, Goodrich, UTAS and now Collins.  No doubt still claiming to have developed cycle lamps and Whittle jet engine controls......what's in a name......!

Did you know my brother Mike Williams or indeed my late father Bill who was still there then?

[truffy]

 

1 hour ago, Georgeconna said:

Rails  / Hattons  obviously now see a Cash cow at producing these themselves in house and cutting out the middle man, lets hope the cost saving can be passed onwards to the punters. 

I don't see this as an attempt to cut out the middle man or reduce costs so much as filling a void left by the majors (either on basis of quality or supply).

1 hour ago, Selkent said:

but even then some of the younger members of Batcombe were not interviewed and I for one know that while the tv crew were interviewing older men at my venue, all the time there was a 18 year old female, sitting quietly in the corner, who   attends model rail shows, helps with the running of layouts, helps out at shows   and more importantly is turning out to be a  very good model maker and made during the interviews an amazing  small model of Stevenson Rocket with just bluetac, they simply ignored her.   

 

Perhaps they simply didn't fit into the stereotype of cable-knit sweaters and grey hair that the BBC were aiming to propagate?

[woodenhead]

Hornby Warley stand 2019 - 4 metre high Hornby banner, flashing red lights, big illuminated arrows flashing 'Get it here'

 

Rails - as per 2018 plus dancing girls

 

Hattons - as per 2018 plus cabinets of it's latest revelation the super detail 47 plus comfy seats and massages

[Jeff Smith]

12 minutes ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

Did you know my brother Mike Williams or indeed my late father Bill who was still there then?

 

I don't think so, Huyton I think was the division in Liverpool, I was at Hemel Hempstead and the Birmingham sites.

[Nimbus]

5 hours ago, 57xx said:

 

I seem to recall that when he was trying to defend his actions to Mr Rails down at the Hornby HQ, he also said the project had started during his first tenure. It can't be both, so which is the truth? 

 

As a non-partisan person with no colours nailed to any manufacturer's mast, he came across to me as a petty and sly person. 

When Hornby's Terrier was announced to us, probably in a thread here, Simon's story was that preparation was underway when he left the company. It then stalled and one of his first questions on returning was why hadn't the work been followed through. If that amounted to more than collecting a few photos together, it would represent wasted effort and wages to let it be made redundant. What the competitive race has probably done though is remove scope for revision of errors in Hornby's design before committing to production - the sequence on the K&ESR showed RMWeb contributors' reservations about the side tank representation to be well-founded. It does seem, for all their investment in CAD workstations, what comes back from China in test shots may not meet the designers expectations. I'm not convinced the dome got re-worked!

 

The Nim.