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BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain


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Hattons, Rails etc are shops, they sell the products of manufacturers like Hornby, Bachman etc.

 

They now wish to cross over and manufacture for themselves........it's a dog eat dog world and if they want to take on the big guns........well Hornby have lost £30,000,000 and are still going.

 

Hattons and Rails etc aren't even in the same league, so I'd suggest they have some care when trying to go head to head with a firm as big as Hornby etc.

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18 minutes ago, 88D said:

I thought Hornbywere very remiss on this. Their stand was low profile, literally, and lacked impact.  Rails banners showing outwards, not inwards? Straight forward advertising so that people from all over the show could see them. Rails outdid Hornby in this mini battle.

 

I’ve not yet seen this “battle “.That pleasure still awaits.Hornby’s showing was,shall we say,low key in comparison with how it was in 2015/6 at the Warley Show despite the return of Simon in his now enhanced role.It was not as perhaps it might have been in comparison with the showing in the immediate past shows.

 

In terms of client/customer impact both Rails and Hattons ( in a non -retail capacity as opposed to Rails ) outdid Hornby who appeared low key and lacklustre by comparison and reliant ....perhaps too much....on Simon’s presence.To suggest that these two retailers were in any way the inferior to Hornby at this show is simply not the case.They were not.They were markedly better.This was Rails second show in recent years and Hattons first. The personnel of both were eager to be communicative and helpful ( Well Sandra was on The Rails stand and that must speak for itself surely).

 

Above all you have to remember that these guys have known and worked with each other for a long while.They are bound to have the occasional differences but they do need each other.Business is business as they say and all’s fair etc.Thus on the Sunday morning of the show last November..wherever the media were...both Simon and  a senior Rails person were engaged in serious conversation.And so the world turns....

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1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

 On the other hand I don't know why Rails think Hornby are under any obligation to give them a call if they are planning to make a competitor to something Rails have announced either. The whole thing came over as rather petty and contrived on all sides.

I think the Competition and Markets Authority might have something to say if manufacturers consulted with each other thereby going back to the days of cartels and artificial pricing where inferior goods often cost far more than they should. Such consultation between manufacturers is actually illegal ...

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I seriously cannot see how Hattons doing a state of the art class 66 is stamping on Hornby traditional ground especially as Bachmann have a far better class 66 for at least a decade.

 

I was expecting the second show down to be between Dapol and Hornby over the 51XX.

 

The big players are rattled by shops producing their own, though surprisingly Rails have at least past through a traditional manufacturer and equally joined forces with the NRM to do it.

 

Not mentioned anywhere is the fact that all these directly sold exclusives items is having probably a far bigger impact on traditional model shops - though Hattons to their credit are supplying others.

 

 

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1 hour ago, jjb1970 said:

The part of the empire conspicuous by its absence was Corgi. LD clearly see's a future for Airfix, and I'm guessing the bits about Scalextric indicate that slot cars have a future in LD's plans. Hornby International was largely ignored except for a few glimpses of models in display units but that may well be because they decided (probably correctly) that the international range wasn't what most viewers of a BBC show would be interested in. The complete silence on Corgi was interesting though, Corgi are another iconic brand in the bubble of British model producers and collector hobbies and are probably just as loved as the Hornby brand. The Corgi range gives me the impression of having under performed for a long time.

 

It was only a 2-part show. Hardly space to cover all 15 brands in any detail.

 

Anyway, at the Toy Fair, a new range of Corgi "Chunckies" appeared. Metal, cartoony cars and quite a lot of different models too.

 

 

Dscf5771_500.jpg

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2 hours ago, 88D said:

I thought Hornbywere very remiss on this. Their stand was low profile, literally, and lacked impact.  Rails banners showing outwards, not inwards? Straight forward advertising so that people from all over the show could see them. Rails outdid Hornby in this mini battle.

 

Haven’t seen the prog yet as currently out country on holiday.  But I would say that I thought the Hornby Stand  at Glasgow  lacked serious impact . Some new models on display eg the new GWR suburban stock but noticeable lack of ScotRail HST or mk2fs even if just graphic images.  On the other hand Hattons Accurascale and Rails stood out.  Need for a Hornby revamp maybe . Instead of smarting at Rails maybe the Marketing Manager should see to that. They used to have large layouts that at least attracted youngsters . The only layout I could see was a very small Harry Potter one.  Of course instead of one big announcement they did lots of announcements at Warley, Model Rail Scotland, Great Electric trainshow and built up expectation in Engineshed before hand , I think you’d find more people interested in the Hornby stand . A bit like the Airfix Hellcat announcement in fact .

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1 hour ago, 60027Merlin said:

 

Some years ago Simon Kohler regularly came up to Harburn Hobbies in Edinburgh on an annual basis for a "Hornby Event" held over a Friday and a Saturday in the shop. When the Clan was still available the owners presented him with a model which they re-named Clan Kohler.

 

 

Wow, I'm not totally losing the plot!

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1 hour ago, Godfrey Glyn said:

......I suspect the bright range of colours and liveries will sell well in the toy shops.....

 

What toy shops Godfrey?

 

High St. toy shops are almost as rare as model shops these days and most of the local independents don't stock Hornby Hobbies products.

The two largest national toy shop chains don't stock Hornby items either and mostly cater for very young children and toddlers.

Some toy shops listed as Hornby retailers, don't actually stock any of their products.

 

Even Argos only hold a very limited selection of Hornby train set items; currently just 3 train sets, smokey Joe and a few track extension packs.

Apart from the 3 train sets, which seem to be held at a few stores here and there, the rest of it has to be ordered in advance, as the actual local stores don't usually carry any stock. A sign that they shift limited volumes.

 

Maybe, the new regime will try to redress this situation.

 

 

.

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25 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Maybe, the new regime will try to redress this situation.

 

Talking to LD at the press event, this is very much on their radar, but the process takes 2.5 years and they are still working on this. Remember that your kids Christmas presents were on show in London in January. It takes a long while to persuade the big buyers and my guess is that it won't be toy trains that get them hooked first. If you looked carefully at the Scalextric section of the show, you might have seen the models that might just do it.

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39 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

What toy shops Godfrey?

 

High St. toy shops are almost as rare as model shops these days and most of the local independents don't stock Hornby Hobbies products.

(Snip)

 

Maybe, the new regime will try to redress this situation.

 

 

.

 

As Phil mentions above, and I got the same answer at the Toy Fair independently, the ‘high street’ is very much a target. Traditional toy shops are as we know far fewer in number, and they realise that too, I got the impression that new types of outlets would be tried. Things like the Coke train (beverage, not powder) may well help to open doors too.

 

Regarding ‘bannerwars’ I didn’t really notice them at Warley, neither for me did the Rails stand, stand out. The high profile stands in terms of visual impact were Accurascale, Bachmann, Hattons and Peco. I did feel that at GETs and Warley the Hornby stand was outshone by the competition, and that it needs a higher profile. I spoke to staff on all the above stands, and they were equally approachable and professional.

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11 hours ago, Corbs said:

One (very important) thing to remember is that the film crew likely had one camera most of the time.

 

Don't be duped by the editor into thinking that the 'reaction shots' of the staff at the announcement to move to Margate were done at the same time. 

The camera op would not have been swinging it round wildly to capture instant reactions of the staff to the announcement, because that would increase the chances of missing something and make lots of unusable Blair Witch-style footage.

 

-Film Lyndon making the announcement

-Film various members of staff on long lens listening to somebody talk (might have been a completely different occasion)

-Editor deletes audio from second clip, run audio from first clip over the second. Bingo, it looks like a reaction shot. 

 

The main thing is that what they went with is funnier and more entertaining, which will be their priority.

That would be very dishonest film making and would almost inevitably look slightly wrong, it would also be completely unnecessary. I can assure you that as a director you really do want to capture that authentic initial reaction and that sort of set-up is actually pretty routine.

 

With a single camera you might take the speaker's preamble, quickly reframe on the audience to get their immediate reaction (which in this case is the key shot) and possibly then return to the speaker if necessary. Experienced cameramen and women (camera operator is a lesser role) don't produce unusable footage- they'd not get many jobs if they did- instead they move very quickly from framed shot to framed shot. Most speakers leave enough gaps and pauses to give plenty of scope for the editor. These days though it's far more common for crews to have a second camera available so the actual announcement could well have been shot from two angles. Looking again at that sequence I'm fairly confident that's what they did.

 

BTW Has anyone found the Scalextric advert that SK was making in-house. I've looked on Youtube but no sign of it.

 

 

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In all fairness, how many people here would be especially happy about leaving what appeared to be a very pleasant, modern office offering a nice working environment to go back to something that had obviously seen better days and didn't look especially pleasant?

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43 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

That would be very dishonest film making and would almost inevitably look slightly wrong, it would also be completely unnecessary. I can assure you that as a director you really do want to capture that authentic initial reaction and that sort of set-up is actually pretty routine.

 

With a single camera you might take the speaker's preamble, quickly reframe on the audience to get their immediate reaction (which in this case is the key shot) and possibly then return to the speaker if necessary. Experienced cameramen and women (camera operator is a lesser role) don't produce unusable footage- they'd not get many jobs if they did- instead they move very quickly from framed shot to framed shot. Most speakers leave enough gaps and pauses to give plenty of scope for the editor. These days though it's far more common for crews to have a second camera available so the actual announcement could well have been shot from two angles. Looking again at that sequence I'm fairly confident that's what they did.

 

BTW Has anyone found the Scalextric advert that SK was making in-house. I've looked on Youtube but no sign of it.

 

Maybe I've been a dishonest film maker for the past 10 years as a Producer (and now Head of Production) then! :P

Edited by Corbs
forgot what my current job title is
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33 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

In all fairness, how many people here would be especially happy about leaving what appeared to be a very pleasant, modern office offering a nice working environment to go back to something that had obviously seen better days and didn't look especially pleasant?

living local I suspect its the move from modern offices 2000's to 1950's also the journey to work would take up to a hour maybe longer each day

 

Nick

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27 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

Maybe I've been a dishonest film maker for the past 10 years as a Producer then! :P

I was a producer and director of factual programmes at the BBC for twenty five years and never found it necessary to cheat in that way; most of the editors I worked with wouldn't have countenanced it either. Fair enough if their expressions remained much the same throughout his speech but the idea of taking reaction shots from a completely different occasion sounds very strange.  In any case why would you not want the staff's immediate reaction to the announcement. That was surely the whole point of that sequence.

 

Never let a good story get in the way of the truth.  

 

I did wonder whether SK's careful placing of the portrait of Frank Hornby was done for the camera but it's possible by now that everyone working at Hornby really do feel that to be their legacy rather than Tri-ang. The chap who'd been there for fifty two years would still have started after it became Tri-ang Hornby  in 1965 so, even though the product base originally descended from Tri-ang as did its presence in Margate (and the tension lock couplers),  there's probably no corporate cultural memory of it being anything but Hornby. Interesting.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I’ve watched both episodes. I can see the frustrations of Rails and Hattons regarding lack of product, and new tooling, hence starting to produce their own models.

 

I still feel Hornby don’t take the diesel era modeller seriously today, yet back in 2005, the super detailed class 31 arrived, then the 08/09, 60, 56, so all good. But since then it’s all been a bit lacklustred, especially choice of liveries. 

 

The part that really surprises me is Hornby not producing a super detailed Class 37 and Class 47. Considering these where their bread and butter diesels through the late 70s, 80s and 90’s. If the Terrier kettle is considered to be a staple member of their range, seems odd to have given up the 37 & 47. Indeed th definitive models of both in my view have yet to be produced.

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Well I do work with BBC factual editors and they are masters of it, so your commitment to the truth is admirable.

I'm not saying 'that scene is clearly false', I'm saying 'don't straight-up believe everything you see because in my experience most of it is made in the edit, and this programme is clearly playing the humorous drama angle'.

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55 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

These days the powder version might be a more popular and profitable option.

 

:D:D :jester:

There was a children's homework answer which went something like this

Teacher: Question. Name a food one of your parents likes.

Child: Answer. My daddy likes sugar, in fact he likes it so much he even sniffs it up his nose.

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Very nice series, and overall it’s a good advert forRails and a Hattons too.

(afterall Hornby knows where good money comes from too).

 

i am thrilled !! that after 3 years banging a drum for new technology (and having bricks thrown at me for suggesting it) that Hornby had at least looked at VR (if not AR too).

 

I think AR rather than VR would be more complimentary to Hornbys physical railway range,  with layout cameos and scenes.

VR has a place in simulator (ie viewing as the developer was on the laptop..think “wii” But using your iPad) rather than the headset as in a loft blowing an imaginary whistle, you could easily fall over a beam and fall from the loft, and definitely the audience isn’t totally ready for it ! 

But scalectrix however is an instant win for VR.. imagine yourself driving that car whilst sat on the couch, against your mate.. and he doesn’t even need to be in the same house as you ! - i’m  think you could even ditch the track and have a course defined by machine learning and race the cars round your house, or the street running off battery/Wi-fi .

 

ive just spent 2 days at the Excell looking at applications of both AR and VR in Data Centres and talking to developers about the tech for my own idea (not related to this hobby),  It isn’t that expensive to develop, and much cheaper than it was, and yes you can use a 3D cad for elements of the app (when I first started I was using Sketchup 5 years back! ).

 

i do hope Hornby give this more thought, it would certainly be more appealing to the crowd in my age group, but I see how hard it would be culturally for Hornby to adopt and hence difficulty in defining those use cases.

 

As for another series... i’d like to see some old fashioned customer research and feet on the street with retailers, indeed if the budget stretched.. a single episode could cover a model from CAD to retailers Shelf including the factory in China... perhaps a gimmick could be James putting a GPS in a model box in China, following it and seeing which lucky customer buys it.

 

Edited by adb968008
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On 14/03/2019 at 11:46, Corbs said:

For the latest in combining railways and VR, have a look at 'Derail Valley'. It's an arcade-like simulator where the player has to pick up waybills and complete jobs, doing nearly all the work of the railway themselves. It looks like good fun.

http://www.derailvalley.com/

 

What I really want is a 00 gauge Class 47 with a camera in the cab, I put on my VR goggles and have the camera's point of view with all the controls at my fingertips!

Hey kids, you don't want to be an engine driver, doing the paperwork is far more fun! Actually it does sound interesting so I'll dig out the VR goggles

 

This is definitely :offtopic:

but there's a DCC tram layout Stepley Tramways with a cam tram (RF camera at both ends) and a fairly authentic set of controls. It uses a  monitor rather than a VR headset but it's enormous fun. The odd thing is that when you think you're driving the tram at breakneck speed and then look at it on the layout it's moving quite slowly.

Back to Hornby. In 2000 they did do a Hornby Virtual Railway (windows 95-2000 so probably wouldn't work now update It does in compatibility mode but the design interface is a bit rubbish)  where you built a layout from the Hornby catalogue that you could then operate. This included a driver's eye view and, within the limits of setrack, it was quite entertaining. I suppose the idea was to built your layout virtually and, when happy with it, build it for real. Of course if you make your layout VR you may not want any fiddle yards. Could you I wonder get the VR to go completely virtual for longer stretches of main line between the actually modelled stations?

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