BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Kelly]

The second part was certainly much better than the first imo. Didn't feel quite as disjointed.

 

The 'fight' was a bit as expected. I don't think either Rails or Hattons especially should be too worried. The Hornby 66 is going to be no comparison with the Hatton's one, and I think it is a good entry level option, giving the more seasoned modeller the choice of 3 types of 66 at different price points. The Terrier is probably as a case of Hornby had started the tooling and so they couldn't really afford to write the costs off. Hopefully Rails will survive and sell enough as I've always found them pleasant and easy to deal with.

 

It would be nice if Hornby paid a bit more attention to their Diesels perhaps though, but at present, I expect it is whatever will sell best first, understandably to bring profits back which are much needed.

[blueeighties]

19 hours ago, richierich said:

I’ve watched both episodes. I can see the frustrations of Rails and Hattons regarding lack of product, and new tooling, hence starting to produce their own models.

 

I still feel Hornby don’t take the diesel era modeller seriously today, yet back in 2005, the super detailed class 31 arrived, then the 08/09, 60, 56, so all good. But since then it’s all been a bit lacklustred, especially choice of liveries. 

 

The part that really surprises me is Hornby not producing a super detailed Class 37 and Class 47. Considering these where their bread and butter diesels through the late 70s, 80s and 90’s. If the Terrier kettle is considered to be a staple member of their range, seems odd to have given up the 37 & 47. Indeed th definitive models of both in my view have yet to be produced.

Nail, head, on.

[Andy Hayter]

54 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

They had no choice—the Lines Brothers' empire was very large and the rights to the "Tri-ang" name went along with the prams to Barclay Securities. Dunbee-Combex-Marx therefore only had the Hornby name left when they took over the model railway side.

 

BTW, duplication is nothing new. Trix and Tri-ang Hornby both produced "Flying Scotsman" at about the same time. Airfix and Mainline the Royal Scots. It's widespread in Continental Europe too. There are current versions of the French BB67400 series from Piko, Jouef and REE; SNCF 030TU (USA tank) from Jouef and REE; in German N V100 diesels have been produced in recent times by Arnold, Fleischmann and Minitrix, 798 railbuses by Arnold, Minitrix and Piko, ... interestingly duplication over there doesn't seem to generate the angst it does here.

 

Actually it does cause just the same Angst in France as it does in the UK.  Magazines like Loco Revue, Le Train and RMF will often talk of the dommage (it's a pity) of les doubles (duplicates).

[colin smith]

There is an intriguing contradiction between those arguing the Hornby Class 66 is not a threat to Hattons' version because it is insufficiently detailed, etcetera, and those saying people should use their imagination to fill in the blanks.

Edited March 15, 2019 by colin smith
missing word

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

They had no choice—the Lines Brothers' empire was very large and the rights to the "Tri-ang" name went along with the prams to Barclay Securities. Dunbee-Combex-Marx therefore only had the Hornby name left when they took over the model railway side.

 

BTW, duplication is nothing new. Trix and Tri-ang Hornby both produced "Flying Scotsman" at about the same time. Airfix and Mainline the Royal Scots. It's widespread in Continental Europe too. There are current versions of the French BB67400 series from Piko, Jouef and REE; SNCF 030TU (USA tank) from Jouef and REE; in German N V100 diesels have been produced in recent times by Arnold, Fleischmann and Minitrix, 798 railbuses by Arnold, Minitrix and Piko, ... interestingly duplication over there doesn't seem to generate the angst it does here.

And look how many continental manufacturers have gone bust or finished up in deep financial dodo.

[gb901]

Found an 1971 airfix construction kit catalogue introducing the new 1/24th superkit of the spitfire - a snip at only £1.99 or 39/10d! Bet the new hellcat is slightly more expensive today?

[grahame]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

BTW, duplication is nothing new. Trix and Tri-ang Hornby both produced "Flying Scotsman" at about the same time. Airfix and Mainline the Royal Scots. It's widespread in Continental Europe too. There are current versions of the French BB67400 series from Piko, Jouef and REE; SNCF 030TU (USA tank) from Jouef and REE; in German N V100 diesels have been produced in recent times by Arnold, Fleischmann and Minitrix, 798 railbuses by Arnold, Minitrix and Piko, ... interestingly duplication over there doesn't seem to generate the angst it does here.

 

And in British N gauge too - and produced at about the same time. Flying Scotsman (Minitrix and Farish), class 66 (Dapol and Farish) and now a crowdfunded class 92 (DJM and Revolution Trains with CJM offering a bespoke one). 

 

G.

[RJS1977]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

Thank you, Corbs. I am now enlightened.

 

But surely if you wanted dinosaurs on your layout, you would actually get some model dinosaurs and place them there?

 

Or if you wanted something else to appear, you could actually make a model of it?

 

 

I could see a use for it with Scalextric - imagine making the Monaco Grand Prix Circuit from Scalextric track and VR adding in the boats and the buildings!

[RJS1977]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think where AR/VR might have great potential is in "living" backscenes, e.g. moving road traffic, pedestrians and livestock, clouds that move, shadows changing as the day passes.

 

Just needs an affordable way to scale up those dinky phone screens that don't break if you sit on them....

 

John

 

Already done - see my profile picture!

[petethemole]

12 minutes ago, gb901 said:

Found an 1971 airfix construction kit catalogue introducing the new 1/24th superkit of the spitfire - a snip at only £1.99 or 39/10d! Bet the new hellcat is slightly more expensive today?

 

At a rough estimate based on my favourite inflation indicator, beer prices, the Hellcat is approximately twice the price in real terms, but there are probably much more details and small parts in the modern kit.

[spamcan61]

24 minutes ago, gb901 said:

Found an 1971 airfix construction kit catalogue introducing the new 1/24th superkit of the spitfire - a snip at only £1.99 or 39/10d! Bet the new hellcat is slightly more expensive today?

Depends what calculation method you want to use, but that's between 25 quid and 65 quid in today's money, so the Hellcat looks relatively expensive.

[ruggedpeak]

18 hours ago, LBRJ said:

I never realised that such in depth Business Studies was such an integral part of railway modelling - Its more about small trains and stuff to me  

I used Hornby as case study during my MBA - explaining how the previous management was getting it very wrong.........

[truffy]

33 minutes ago, colin smith said:

There is an intriguing contradiction between those arguing the Hornby Class 66 is not a threat to Hattons' version because it is insufficiently detailed, etcetera, and those saying people should use their imagination to fill in the blanks.

 

It depends on how much imagination you have or want to use I guess

[truffy]

32 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

And look how many continental manufacturers have gone bust or finished up in deep financial dodo.

 

Deep financial dodo? Is that a way of saying they’re extinct?

[88D]

Serious question: will AR remove the problem of dirty track at shows? If so, I’ll buy one!

[Nimbus]

1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

@Captain Kernow The whole world or AR/VR and people being shown saying things they haven't said (and worse when AR is inserted into Adult videos) - it is becoming hard to know what is a truth and what is a lie.

[snip]

I too fear for the future once people simply cannot tell the difference.

I've been detecting this effect in this very thread already - in the unwillingness to accept Simon Kohler's account of the Terrier project timeline, for instance.

 

The Nim.

[Jeff Smith]

49 minutes ago, gb901 said:

Found an 1971 airfix construction kit catalogue introducing the new 1/24th superkit of the spitfire - a snip at only £1.99 or 39/10d! Bet the new hellcat is slightly more expensive today?

 

Love those modern cars.

[jjb1970]

43 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Depends what calculation method you want to use, but that's between 25 quid and 65 quid in today's money, so the Hellcat looks relatively expensive.

 

A couple of years ago I picked up an Airfix 1/24 Spitfire and the Bf109E, both were well under 30 quid in clearance offers. They make impressive kits but both show their age, fit and finish was a little rough and detail more basic than you might expect for the scale. If the F6F is like the Typhoon they did in 1/24 then it'll be in a different world and compared to other large scale high detail kits it looks well priced.

[Captain Kernow]

I could imagine a future world where layouts are displayed behind a glass screen, on to which the AR images are shown, so that you get the good modelling of the layout itself, together with walking small people, seagulls pinching their chips etc.

 

[bigherb]

48 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

 

Love those modern cars.

I made a lot of them. Some I fitted a Riko slot car chassis under them. The Zodiac made a nice Banger racer.

[Andy Hayter]

On the topic of 66s; I accept that the model quality/detail level/price point are different between Hattons and Hornby, but to suggest that Hornby's re-introduction has no impact on Hattons' sales is a little simplistic I think.

 

If I wanted a 66 in let's say Frazzledazzle livery, I might have been prepared to save up for one of the Hattons ones since this is the only one available and as everyone knows the Frazzledazzle livery is so difficult to replicate that even the transfer guys steer clear*.  Now with Hornby at about half the price, I don't need to save up so much.  So I do think that a portion of Hattons' market has been eroded.  I could not give you a percentage but any loss will be hard.   I would not be surprised if some of the less common livery versions have been hit by well into double figure percentage losses for Hattons.

 

* and even more difficult for those who do not have the knowledge/confidence/time to have a go themselves.

[RJS1977]

3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think where AR/VR might have great potential is in "living" backscenes, e.g. moving road traffic, pedestrians and livestock, clouds that move, shadows changing as the day passes.

 

Just needs an affordable way to scale up those dinky phone screens that don't break if you sit on them....

 

John

 

Already done - see my profile picture!

 

(If any clubs within say two hours of Reading want a layout with an animated backscene for their show, drop me a message!)

Edited March 15, 2019 by RJS1977

[newbryford]

37 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

On the topic of 66s; I accept that the model quality/detail level/price point are different between Hattons and Hornby, but to suggest that Hornby's re-introduction has no impact on Hattons' sales is a little simplistic I think.

 

If I wanted a 66 in let's say Frazzledazzle livery, I might have been prepared to save up for one of the Hattons ones since this is the only one available and as everyone knows the Frazzledazzle livery is so difficult to replicate that even the transfer guys steer clear*.  Now with Hornby at about half the price, I don't need to save up so much.  So I do think that a portion of Hattons' market has been eroded.  I could not give you a percentage but any loss will be hard.   I would not be surprised if some of the less common livery versions have been hit by well into double figure percentage losses for Hattons.

 

* and even more difficult for those who do not have the knowledge/confidence/time to have a go themselves.

 

 

Quoting "celebrity" numbers/liveries:

If folks are going to buy a loco in a particular livery on a price issue, then Bachmann have more to lose as Hornby are doing 66783 Flying Dustman, 66789 BR large logo and 66413 G&W orange. Bachmann have all three in their 2019 catalogue, Hattons only have two (783/789).

 

If folks are wanting a particular livery and prepared to spend on the higher spec, then I'm pretty sure Hattons will win the sales of 66783 and 66789 against Bachmann. 

 

I'll bet the gang at Barwell were using words worse than "spiteful" after they learned of Hornby's plans.

 

Cheers,

Mick

[DonnyRailMan]

I liked it when Simon showed Hattons the Hornby 66 and Rails Of Sheffiels the Hornby Terrier ,both of there faces where a picture.

[JSpencer]

2 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

If I wanted a 66 in let's say Frazzledazzle livery, I might have been prepared to save up for one of the Hattons ones since this is the only one available and as everyone knows the Frazzledazzle livery is so difficult to replicate that even the transfer guys steer clear*.  Now with Hornby at about half the price, I don't need to save up so much.  So I do think that a portion of Hattons' market has been eroded.  I could not give you a percentage but any loss will be hard.   I would not be surprised if some of the less common livery versions have been hit by well into double figure percentage losses for Hattons.

 

 

 

The more common liveries have been done before. Anyone wanting it cheap will find one somewhere. So any new additions in the cheap end will have little influence on Hattons. Then we have the liveries not covered before. There will be people who cannot afford the Hattons one anyway but will buy the Hornby one, so No impact on Hattons sales. Then you have those wanting the best 66 possible, they are hardly going to buy Hornby's old tooling model. You are left with just the small section which was after the never done before livery and consider the old tooling adequate off their needs. There will be an impact there for sure but not something to worry about.

You then have a lot of people like me who will find the 66 too recent for their layouts. 

The real nightmare must therefore be with most other model shops. What with Hattons, Hornby and (eventually) Bachmann producing so many variants, it is no longer a question of how many to stock of each but rather which ones? Most model shops are not  going to sit on 30 different versions of the same class in multiple colours from 3 makes!

in fact sitting on 9 different versions just from Hornby is likely to end up being money tied up.

A strategy that is somewhat rushed. The world is in constant evolution and changes moving from one crisis to the next. For any business to survive it needs to flexible enough to meet the needs of customers. Traditional telephone companies now sell television Chanel's as a major part of their DSL packages and my lease line serves more for TV and internet these days than use as a telephone.

Innovation is a key for sure, but the right innovations require close interactions with customers finding and testing ideas. The multiple 66s is an idea clearly rushed, untested on customers with the sole objective of trying to dissuade new players from entering the market - clearly and obviously it will fail! The world has moved on and returning to the past is impossible.

Why was the early 2000s a success? Because Hornby finally abandoned its old way of producing trains with tender drive locos produced from tooling that had little changed in 20 years and asked people and then produced all new models with a spec that people wanted. They need to repeat the exercise again to find out where the market is now.