BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[phil-b259]

On 14/03/2019 at 08:05, Bernard Lamb said:

I thought SK was behaving in a rather petty manner with his complaint about the banner on the Rails stand.

I would have just smiled and taken it on the chin that I had been outsmarted.

I loved the Rails dig about corn beef and fillet steak in respect of the Terrier.

I have made previous comments re the lack of QC procedures at Hornby.

Surprise, surprise, to hear that axle/hole diameters are not standard saved items in CAD.

I did not get what the furniture assembly by the new designer had to do with things.

In general I found it an entertaining program. I can see that Hornby will get back into profit. But to recover the lost £30m? that seems a hard task.

Bernard

 

 

 

The whole Banner thing was, in my view, deliberately hyped up because it mad effort good TV' - while I'm sure words would have been said they might not have been quite as heated if a camera crew wern't on hand to record the 'outrage'

 

Similarly the whole Rails / Hattons / Hornby tiff was probably encouraged for much the same reasons.

 

The footage of the new designer assembling flat pack furniture was simply filler material - you could have had her sat there simply narrating what she said to the camera as a 'talking head'. Instead the production crew decided on something different - maybe her being a designer made them think that footage of her building something (even if it was Ikea stuff)  was a better 'fit'.

 

Meanwhile the terrier dome error and the CAD error with the axle dimensions were mightily handy for the TV crew.....

 

Overall it was an enjoyable couple of programmes - but I would take much of what was featured with a large dose of salt. At the end of the day the while series was in effect a glorified advert for Hornby  and not a warts and all documentary in the 'Dispatches' style....

[jjb1970]

10 hours ago, phil-b259 said:

 

The whole Banner thing was, in my view, deliberately hyped up because it mad effort good TV' - while I'm sure words would have been said they might not have been quite as heated if a camera crew wern't on hand to record the 'outrage'

 

Similarly the whole Rails / Hattons / Hornby tiff was probably encouraged for much the same reasons.

 

The footage of the new designer assembling flat pack furniture was simply filler material - you could have had her sat there simply narrating what she said to the camera as a 'talking head'. Instead the production crew decided on something different - maybe her being a designer made them think that footage of her building something (even if it was Ikea stuff)  was a better 'fit'.

 

Meanwhile the terrier dome error and the CAD error with the axle dimensions were mightily handy for the TV crew.....

 

Overall it was an enjoyable couple of programmes - but I would take much of what was featured with a large dose of salt. At the end of the day the while series was in effect a glorified advert for Hornby  and not a warts and all documentary in the 'Dispatches' style....

 

Indeed, it was part entertainment, part corporate PR (and part homage to David Brent). Great fun and terrific TV for model enthusiasts but it wasn't a hard hitting documentary. 

[johnofwessex]

What made me laugh was in the middle of a film about the company & its products they hammed up not being able to see the Scalectrix advert.....................

[RJS1977]

21 hours ago, Hroth said:

Email from Hornby just arrived, announcing new Class 66 and more Terriers available now, "As seen on BBC 4".

 

Hmmmmm...

 

According to the email "Terrier and Class 66 coaches"....

[Hroth]

I was just thinking, did any railway use "Rabbit" as a telegraphic code for any vehicles?

 

It would go well with a Terrier...

[rob D2]

I like Mr Kohler - we’ve had a couple of chats by email and he’s always keen to hear views on products .

 

I don’t really understand why he was getting the hairy eyeball from the hattons guy.

with the 66, Hornby had it in their range ( ex Lima ) for years , and they keep reissuing so it must sell to the more price conscious market.15 years ago I’d have brought the Lima one, now I’m eyeing up the hattons version - different market , And of course they will capitalise on the latest liveries. 

 

As for the terrier - Hornby had one before rails so I can’t see that they can get too high and mighty about that, although the timing of the new tooling canmaybe be seen as a bit incendiary .

 

Theres going to be duplication - that’s unavoidable as some products are “ must haves “ for a lot of manufacturers 

[Ian Hargrave]

The spat on camera with John Barber was a self inflicted wound and entirely avoidable had a little forward planning been used.Not Simon’s finest hour ( except of course for the publicity....no such thing as bad publicity,is there ? ) as I suspect he knows. The Hornby stand was in any case underwhelming.In the two years when the R&D team were in command it was much more purposeful and effective in terms of interaction with its client group and had visually immediate presence.Methinks he protested too much the victim. But good tv was it not ?

 

  I do know that the following day,the olive branch was out and conciliatory discussion was taking place behind the Rails stand between the “injured party” and a senior Rails executive .So no bones broken.

 

Worth reflecting that Hattons,Rails....and indeed now Kernow....have also invested heavily in expansion of their respective concerns,so it’s not just Hornby’s finances that are in the melting pot here,so why does Simon claim  entitlement?  The world turns and moves on,I’m afraid and the SK roadshow now has new challenges to face.

 

When Rails launched their splendid new showroom last May,it seems curious that a conspicuous absence among invited luminaries was a Hornby representation.Maybe there is no real significance in that.

 

   What we do know is that Hornby and the retail trade are interdependent and to present this relationship as some kind of turf war is plain daft.At the end they went happily into the sunset.....cue credits and James May voiceover.

 

 

 

 

 

[chris p bacon]

Deleted. 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by chris p bacon

[Jeff Smith]

What have I missed about Hattons and Bachmann?

[Ian J.]

20 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

What have I missed about Hattons and Bachmann?

 

There is or was some kind of spat between them that means Bachmann aren't supplying Hattons currently. It's all gone legal as far as I understand it so we can't discuss it here, and even when we could all we talked was pure speculation without any evidence. So best to keep it off the forum until there's some kind of clearance to discuss it further.

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, chris p bacon said:

 

I'm guessing that after losing Bachmann he saw another chunk of his income disappearing with the Hornby 66. I don't have sympathy for them as in the past they haven't worried about other retailers when pricing low to take market share.

 

I think Rails (John) had the better outlook, he seemed to realise that the only way forward for him was to make the Rails Terrier more detailed.

 

I just hope that copying the liveries or competitively duplicating tooling of your biggest customers isn’t going to be Hornby’s headline approach in the future.

 

Its noteworthy the new management of Hornby built their Oxford range by pretty much taking on duplicating Hornby with the wagons, Dean Goods, mk3’s and Radial and so were doing what to my eyes looks the same thing, as Hornby has done this year since they took over.

 

sticking a TV camera In front of your biggest customer, whilst smiling at him as you demonstrate you’ve just impacted a 6 figure investment he’s made does not to me seem condusive to a positive image.

 

on a wider subject duplication doesn’t do it for me in general, the Heljan class 25 is another such example. You”’ll note my omission of the cl92 as crowdfunding is a whole mother area of lost confidence (Accurascale got my order solely because it wasn’t cf).

 

Its ok claiming Hornby’s’ territorial claims, but the sales phrase, that  comes to mind is you can be right, and you can be dead, right...

 

To me the consumer has lost this year, my lack of pre-orders is testament to that, I don’t go for duplicates myself...

my interest this year are mainly new tooling to come, the Ruston, Suburbans & Peckett. The rest of it can stay on the shelf, so no pre-orders for Terriers, 61xx (neither Dapol, Hornby or Rails versions), 66, mk2f etc..

 

My 2019 spend on Accurascales Cemflos is greater than my 2019 planned Hornby spend.

 

That lot combined with the discount limits restrictions and the sordid world of crowdfunding, it’s not only lowered my spend, but it’s lowered my confidence and my interest in the hobby too, you really don’t want to know how much I’ve spent in the past, but it’s being spent a little differently this year, my wife’s noticed that only 3 packages this year have so far arrived, more than that could arrive in a single day in the past.

 

I myself am contemplating reducing the collection too as 5+ of this and that is too much, which translates into reduced quantity of pre-orders in 2019 (I thought nothing of buying every Peckett 0-4-0 last few years, and could have bought all 10 Barclays in the past, but this years my limit will be 2 on any new loco tooling, what I want is innovation, not more of the same, I just don’t need it all, and as i’m also thinking this could all be a bubble.

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by adb968008

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

 

According to the email "Terrier and Class 66 coaches"....

 

Possibly your email was written by a steam-age modeller, confused by the fact that one oblong on wheels looks much like another ....

 

hat ... coat ... 

[Jol Wilkinson]

35 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I just hope that copying the liveries or competitively duplicating tooling of your biggest customers isn’t going to be Hornby’s headline approach in the future.

 

Its noteworthy the new management of Hornby built their Oxford range by pretty much taking on duplicating Hornby with the wagons, Dean Goods, mk3’s and Radial and so were doing what to my eyes looks the same thing, as Hornby has done this year since they took over.

 

on a wider subject duplication doesn’t do it for me in general, the Heljan class 25 is another such example. You”’ll note my omission of the cl92 as crowdfunding is a whole mother area of lost confidence (Accurascale got my order solely because it wasn’t cf).

 

Its ok claiming Hornby’s’ territorial claims, but the sales phrase, that  comes to mind is you can be right, and you can be dead, right...

 

To me the consumer has lost this year, my lack of pre-orders is testament to that, I don’t go for duplicates myself... so no pre-orders for Terriers, 61xx (neither Dapol, Hornby or Rails versions), 66, mk2f etc.. That lot combined with the discount limits restrictions and the sordid world of crowdfunding, it’s not only lowered my spend, but it’s lowered my confidence and my interest in the hobby too, you really don’t want to know how much I’ve spent in the past, but it’s being spent a little differently this year, my wife’s noticed that only 3 packages this year have so far arrived, and is making her own plans for the cash, I myself am contemplating reducing the collection too as i’m thinking this could all be a bubble.

 

 

 

Or that Hornby's biggest customers don't have a policy of manufacturing  what Hornby produce (other manufacturers are available).

 

It seems that Hattons, Rails, Kernow, NRM/Locomotion and others are trying to have their cake and eat it. Presumably they still want to buy in RTR products, rely on Hornby and the others to produce the complimentary items, etc. while they cherry pick the "popular" and more profitable products in the loco centric RTR market.

 

While competition is regarded as a good thing (unless you are Amazon, Apple, Microsoft or one of the other USA internet giants), it would have appear to have a negative effect if others share your view. New releases are the life blood of most manufacturers and there doesn't seem to be much slowing of the usual lemming like rush to buy anything and everything new. The various polls and wish list indicate there is plenty of appetite for different new models, although this thread seems to indicate that the manufacturers and commissioners don't always recognise that.

[richierich]

The battle of the class 66 seems to have caught people’s imagination. 

 

Personally, I wouldn’t touch the ex Lima now Hornby Class 66. It’s 20 year old tooling. It has a place as a entry level railroad model to my mind. 

 

Bachmann, I think have become complacent and seems to think they milk the tooling and increase prices, but yet not invest in improving the model. Yes it’s a good model and should be accurate because it was based manufacturers information. Bachmann could of improved the lightning, they could of retooled the bogie frames to represent the rotatating axle ends.  However they haven’t…

 

Hattons have seen the opportunity and because it new tooling using today’s technology can offer improved features. They also are possibly closer to the market than any of the manufacturers, who to me do seem a little arrogant towards the end users (I.e us!). So Hattons have picked up customers like prototypical lighting especially under DCC. But the market Hattons are targetting are the adult scale modeller, not child market with their 66. 

 

For me the 66 is outside my modelling period. So i’m Just watching. If it’s a success will Hattons or Rails pick off other classes like the 37 and 47. Huge geographical appeal and variations, and market…?

[Dunsignalling]

49 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

Or that Hornby's biggest customers don't have a policy of manufacturing  what Hornby produce (other manufacturers are available).

 

It seems that Hattons, Rails, Kernow, NRM/Locomotion and others are trying to have their cake and eat it. Presumably they still want to buy in RTR products, rely on Hornby and the others to produce the complimentary items, etc. while they cherry pick the "popular" and more profitable products in the loco centric RTR market.

 

While competition is regarded as a good thing (unless you are Amazon, Apple, Microsoft or one of the other USA internet giants), it would have appear to have a negative effect if others share your view. New releases are the life blood of most manufacturers and there doesn't seem to be much slowing of the usual lemming like rush to buy anything and everything new. The various polls and wish list indicate there is plenty of appetite for different new models, although this thread seems to indicate that the manufacturers and commissioners don't always recognise that.

 

Though it appears that Kernow have a happy knack of baking cakes that no-one else have in their ovens.  Notwithstanding the rumours that they strategically withdrew from triplicating the Adams Radial, of course.

Hornby, these days, are effectively only high-volume commissioners themselves so I really don't see any logical justification for them objecting to or deliberately trying to shoot down commissioned models from elsewhere, other than that they can (unlike Bachmann, it would seem, in the case of the Class 66, Lord Nelson and GWR mogul).

 

I do wonder if an inability to react, like Hornby, on a competitive basis (or, more likely, an inability to persuade their parent company that it would be worthwhile to do so), may be at the root of the acrimony between Bachmann and Hatton's?

 

John

Edited March 17, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[adb968008]

40 minutes ago, richierich said:

 

For me the 66 is outside my modelling period. So i’m Just watching. If it’s a success will Hattons or Rails pick off other classes like the 37 and 47. Huge geographical appeal and variations, and market…?

With the risk that next year you can walk into Barwell and Margate to find your latest liveries on a cut price alternative ?

 

Lets face it Hattons/Rails maybe Hornbys biggest customers, but they are their smallest competitors... 

 

Has the lesson Hornby wants to teach been learnt ?

Or will it  accelerate a UK equivalent of Walthers emerging ?

 

for example, ( its only a random thought but imagine say) ..If a few of the  retailers / commissioners decided to joint venture and pool their comission operations side of their businesses, whilst retaining independant retail. they are suddenly nolonger too small to be kicked about... mergers / jv’s  are afterall an industry norm of growth, and toolings only earn money if used, and Hattons already have established a trade customer base.

Afterall the big boys couldnt cut off themselves from every big customer who jv’d together could they ?

 

of course, if the market goes too cut throat in duplicating each others liveries &  toolings.. those wanting a new 37/47 may win that battle but only some companies will win the war... afterall theirs a growing number of fish in the pond, but is the stream supplying water fast enough ?

Edited March 17, 2019 by adb968008

[Dunsignalling]

34 minutes ago, richierich said:

 

For me the 66 is outside my modelling period. So i’m Just watching. If it’s a success will Hattons or Rails pick off other classes like the 37 and 47. Huge geographical appeal and variations, and market…?

 

 

Given that Hornby don't make "significant" models of either, in the absence of a "peace treaty" with Bachmann, there would certainly be nothing to inhibit Hatton's from doing so.

 

I reckon the spectre of Hatton's possibly becoming the UK's answer to Walthers may haunt dreams in both Barwell and Margate....

 

John

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

I was just thinking, did any railway use "Rabbit" as a telegraphic code for any vehicles?

 

It would go well with a Terrier...

No.  But the nearest word, alphabetically, to 'rabbit' in the Code book was 'racoon'.   By strange coincidence with various things that were hyped in the tv programme the code 'racoon' meant 'Do you hold the licence for .......... ?'

[The Stationmaster]

16 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

With the risk that next year you can walk into Barwell and Margate to find your latest liveries on a cut price alternative ?

 

Lets face it Hattons/Rails maybe Hornbys biggest customers, but they are their smallest competitors... 

 

Has the lesson Hornby wants to teach been learnt ?

Or will it  accelerate a UK equivalent of Walthers emerging ?

 

for example, ( its only a random thought but imagine say) ..If a few of the  retailers / commissioners decided to joint venture and pool their comission operations side of their businesses, whilst retaining independant retail. they are suddenly nolonger too small to be kicked about... mergers / jv’s  are afterall an industry norm of growth, and toolings only earn money if used, and Hattons already have established a trade customer base.

Afterall the big boys couldnt cut off themselves from every big customer who jv’d together could they ?

 

of course, if the market goes too cut throat in duplicating each others liveries &  toolings.. those wanting a new 37/47 may win that battle but only some companies will win the war... afterall theirs a growing number of fish in the pond, but is the stream supplying water fast enough ?

Look at the ads, and what various retailers (particularly Hattons) are already doing - there are already what amount to 'joint productions' involving retailers with 'somebody else' and that might possibly continue as the market evolves and changes.  The big boys can only really - and in my view absolutely successfully - respond by innovation and developing new markets as well as continuing a flow of new  products into a marketplace which seems to crave the new (witness the comment from the Harburn people in the programme).

 

Hornby's marketing dash back to the past, and a past which has long gone in my view, might work as long as they roll out cheap versions  from their back catalogue into a marketplace alongside somebody else's sooper dooper new models where the new models are stimulating the market.  New models properly developed will also work of course but they need to let people know what is going on by drip feeding the market and keeping their name there instead of the annual release which they've now returned to.  Yes, obviously the annual order taking has to continue in many respects so they can plan production but in other respects their marketing is slipping behind events and the way the market has moved.

 

Hornby I think long ago misjudged what retailer commissioning was all about although to some extent their supply problems, and later financial troubles, didn't give them the flexibility to work as effectively as they might in this new market situation.  They were I think getting well on the road towards that in the way they responded to the Hattons 'King' ('look, this is how far we've already got') and in giving subtle and not so subtle hints to let us know what might be on the way plus bringing new items forward direct to the end customer at the big shows.  and of course there was also innovation - some of which has continued into new items for 2019. 

[jjb1970]

I must admit I think the way that they are promoting their product and communicating with customers has really gone backwards under the current team. This TV show excepted which was a great piece of corporate PR I think their bold return to the past is a mistake. The engine shed was brilliant, they brought it back but it has never really found the Mojo it had before. The passion and enthusiasm of the product design team shone through and forged a real link with fans. Hornby should have the courage to give freedom to the design team to talk directly to consumers as they did before. The return to an annual big ban announcement is another blunder I think, linked to neutering the engine shed. Before they were doing a great job of building anticipation and holding people's attention throughout the year. The worrying thing that I took from this show is how SK seems to be so stuck in the past. I thought the VR segment was telling, he clearly felt he had to take a look but it was equally clear he hadn't really taken much of an interest in the technology and was struggling to get it. If you want to innovate you really need to believe in whatever you are trying to innovate. 

[Widnes Model Centre]

JNo matter what views you hold on Hornby’s 66. According to the Hornby website, some variants are already ‘Sold out’. Others are limited quantities. 

 

Our own Pre-orders are very good.  Have already seen a few with an advertised  £90 price tag. 

 

 

Looks like Hornby have a winner.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Widnes Model Centre

[railroadbill]

Recently caught up with the second episode.  I thought it was entertaining, thanks to James May, and the bit showing a part of the scalextric car  development  was interesting.

One angle that seemed missing was the local model shop, and how important smaller retailer's orders were to Hornby. We only seemed to get 2 very large mainly mail order businesses featured.  (Granted they must be major customers, but how much of Hornby's business still  relies on smaller shops and what they order to sell on?).

 

James May made a comment that Hattons were "manufacturing their own locos"  - did he mean that they were making them in a back room of their warehouse or something?   (NB that's a joke.)

 

 

[johnofwessex]

So, loco's are expensive & times are hard.

 

I suspect that there are many whose models do exactly the same job that the prototypes were designed for, hauling trains.  If they look good enough & work reliably surely there is an excellent case for dusting off the old tooling & producing a loco that is in reach of most modellers, while allowing others to produce the 'high end' stuff

[The Johnster]

I think re-issuing back catalogue items such as LOTI and the shortie clerestories is a knee-jerk response the demand for these products on 'Bay; prices here have dropped through the bottom since the re-issue was announced.  It is a cheap and easy exercise for H so long as they still have the toolings, and can be done relatively quickly, but there has been no attempt to improve the models or bring them to a modern standard, and the interiorless shorties are still on mk1 bogies having never been updated since 1961 except for the bogie mounting.  This may be damaging in the long term, as the company is less likely to introduce (and benefit from the profitability of) a re-tooled Dean Single, and will continue to produce the old model which is not acceptable to people used to modern standards of detail and daylight beneath boilers, even Railroad customers, likewise the coaches which are the wrong length and of indeterminate prototypes.  The Dean gangwayed coaches are also due a revisit, as their lack of moulded panelling is a major drawback.

 

It is my belief that modern standard models of these items, inevitably much more expensive of course, would sell very well; there is very little competition in this sector of the market.  Hornby may claim that it is a bit niche, but the coaches especially were in service for many years, well in to the 'period 3' era, which is not by any means niche but pretty mainstream!  Rapido are making a go of the Stirling single, and that hasn't even got any coaches to run with it! 

 

But Hornby will have to pause to draw breath over the next year or so after this year's phenomenal (and very creditable) effort, and investors will probably want to see some of their money back before endorsing further expansion for a while, so not much is going to happen any time soon in this respect.

[Workbench52]

On 06/03/2019 at 22:45, Mike Storey said:

Shock, horror......this was excellent TV.

 

Simon's expressions were priceless, particularly over the lost tooling. No-one bothered to ask whether they would be of any use these days. No-one bothered to ask what he would have done differently. Being asked back seemed to be the sole explanation for the company's misfortunes for five years. I don't dislike Simon, he is very likeable, but I was unimpressed with his responses to my queries, on two different occasions at two different shows, back in the day. He was of a time. I am not sure that is now, and the programme did not make that case. Same for LCD - poached from one of Hornby's "biggest competitors" - seriously?? The case was made for passion, but the innovations were coming out of the boring office at Sandwich. 

 

No-one bothered to point out that the sound team's excellent work was done when neither Simon nor Lynton were there. But hey ho - that condemned sound wagon was my favourite innovation. I did not even know they produced such a thing. Indeed, do they now?

 

But my favourite part of the hour was when May explained that teenagers' faces had been blurred (at the big Telford show during the Airfix announcement) so that they might still be able to get a girlfriend. 

 

This programme was setting a scene, very enjoyably - perhaps the greatest illustration being that its innovations relied on the unpaid, huge efforts of individual volunteers, in this case on tooling that cost £100k  - which other c.£40 million turnover industry does that? It could have made anyone even vaguely interested in the future of modelling, much more interested, and perhaps better informed as to where the hobby industry sits right now.

 

Episode 2 sounds like it will be much more revealing. But James May sounded strangely aloof and perhaps sceptical. I am definitely going to watch that.

 

I think the blurring of the children's faces is something to do with new restrictions, legal or otherwise. So the joke about it being so that they could get girlfriends later in life was just a throw away joke . . . but it made me smile too!

A year or so ago I was going around our model railway club's open day innocently taking a few photos as a record of the day. I popped my head around the junior club's door and, as soon as I lifted my camera to my eye I was told in no uncertain terms by the adult in charge that I couldn't take any photos as the junior members were there in shot. I was amazed, but apologised assuring him that I meant no harm and left. It does seem sad that things have come to this today . . . but I guess it is the world that we live in.