BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, S&CR said:

 

My (very limited) knowledge is that all the other Cities were scrapped early, but the similar Bulldog & Bird classes were used for much longer. Guess which one Bachmann modelled?

 

(I confess I have flesh in the game as my surname is Goldfinch and a beautiful brute she was too.)

The 'Cities' lasted, broadly, 25 years and were obvious candidates to go as r they were overtaken by the Churchward 4-6-0s on their original work and then fell before the tide of new 4-6-0 building in the 1920s.   Their big drawback was their Route Availability as they were red engines and therefore not as useful for demotion to secondary routes as the 'Bulldogs' - hence some of the latter outliving them.

 

The reason Bachmann make the 'City' is quite simple - it was originally an NRM exclusive which subsequently became available for general issue by Bachmann.  So the 'blame' for the 'City' being modelled instead of a 'Bulldog' is really all down to 'City of Truro' and its exploit on Wellington Bank then its preservation - rather than any sort of off-key marketing choice by Bachmann.

 

3 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

Being of the generation (and social class) that generally grew up with Triang trains, I find the above photo incredibly nostalgic. Not that I ever owned an EM2 or a Hymek, but I did once have a Triang Hornby Class 37. It just evokes wonderful, warm memories of long ago.

 

 

 

I still have my two original Hymeks, one of which I renumbered.  They were however far from good performers particularly on gradients but once the powered wheelsets had been turned to a decent profile (a service Eames used to offer for a very reasonable price) they were immeasurably improved.  Mine also have Jackson wheels on the non-powered bogie.

 

My EE Type 3 was also renumbered (hand painted) and has turned wheels  plus dirtying copied from a photo I took of one at Canton although it still boasts its original, horribly incorrect, bogies.

[Captain Kernow]

32 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

I still have my two original Hymeks, one of which I renumbered.  They were however far from good performers particularly on gradients but once the powered wheelsets had been turned to a decent profile (a service Eames used to offer for a very reasonable price) they were immeasurably improved.  Mine also have Jackson wheels on the non-powered bogie.

 

I did add additional detail to a Triang Hornby Hymek owned by Simon Castens back in the 1990s and gave it a repaint etc. It looked quite good, in fact and saw quite a lot of service on 'Engine Wood' in the early days, but I didn't realise initially that the bogie centres were wrong. Eventually the Heljan Hymek came out and that is what I have been using since, although Simon still has his original Hymek.

 

[Mallard60022]

4 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

Being of the generation (and social class) that generally grew up with Triang trains, I find the above photo incredibly nostalgic. Not that I ever owned an EM2 or a Hymek, but I did once have a Triang Hornby Class 37. It just evokes wonderful, warm memories of long ago.

 

Back in the day, and for (say) three decades thereafter, certainly until the 1990s, for me a 'model shop' (or perhaps I should say 'model railway shop') not only sold boxed RTR like that shown above, but also the kits and bits to build your own stuff. A (relatively) elderly proprietor, perhaps, presided over a literal Aladdin's Cave, containing drawers and drawers of Romford wheels, gears, motors, W&H whitemetal detailing parts, track components, Ratio wagon kits etc., to say nothing of the much-desired boxes of loco kits by the likes of Wills, K's, Gem etc. For me, growing up in the Bath and Bristol area, the epitome of such a model shop was Max Williams at Lawrence Hill, just a few yards down from the main road overbridge adjacent to the station of the same name.

 

Although the Max Williams emporium closed in the late 1980s, such model shops continued to survive elsewhere in places that I frequented during various career moves. But by the late 1990s, a definite change was noticeable amongst those that continued to trade, in that the market was already shifting towards more (and better) RTR, more plastic injection moulded kits and fewer 'traditional' loco kits and 'after market' detailing items.

 

By the time I moved to Plymouth in the early 1990s, the shop run by Martyn Welch in the suburbs of Plymouth was still going ('Blue Peter') and I spent (mis-spent) many an extended lunch hour in there, drinking his coffee and talking about all kinds of stuff, with Martyn perhaps showing his latest weathering project to me. There was also another decent model shop closer to the railway station in Plymouth, in a suburban avenue, run by a chap called Kevin, but I can't recall the name of the business. He moved into a new unit on the station itself in the mid-1990s, but the decline in the stock held mirrored that of the business and the place eventually became a kind of club for him and his cronies to hang out and talk about football in.

 

These days, there is still a branch of Antics in Plymouth city centre, together with a branch of Games Workshop or Warhammer (not sure of the proper name), nearby.

 

Sometimes a decent model shop can be found in relatively unexpected places, such as the High Street in Newton Abbot, home to the marvellous Bekra Models (not just railways), but which is as close to a 'general modelling supplier' as you can get these days.

 

The Model Shop in Exeter, near the Iron Bridge, run by Dave Harding and familiar to those who frequented the earlier RMWeb Taunton Members days, is the nearest thing we have in South Devon to a traditional model railway shop and is also well worth a visit if you are in the area.

 

I suspect this should have been posted in a different thread, but all the outlets mentioned above sell (or used to sell) Hornby products!

 

 

The shop in Hereford is a bit of a proper job Model Shop and if you have not been there then ask to see their cellar...…..bliddy amazing!

I know Hereford isn't in Devon CK! neither is Doncaster but lo, a newish MRF shop has appeared there called Panda Models.

 

Phil

Edited March 19, 2019 by Mallard60022

[Phil Parker]

36 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

The shop in Hereford is a bit of a proper job Model Shop and if you have not been there then ask to see their cellar...…..bliddy amazing!

 

It's a top shop, but I didn't know about the cellar. I'll ask next time I'm in there...

[Mallard60022]

5 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It's a top shop, but I didn't know about the cellar. I'll ask next time I'm in there...

It is the Aladdin's cave of MR stores. All sorts of stuff down there including historic stock IIRC.

Phil

[Workbench52]

6 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

Being of the generation (and social class) that generally grew up with Triang trains, I find the above photo incredibly nostalgic. Not that I ever owned an EM2 or a Hymek, but I did once have a Triang Hornby Class 37. It just evokes wonderful, warm memories of long ago.

 

Back in the day, and for (say) three decades thereafter, certainly until the 1990s, for me a 'model shop' (or perhaps I should say 'model railway shop') not only sold boxed RTR like that shown above, but also the kits and bits to build your own stuff. A (relatively) elderly proprietor, perhaps, presided over a literal Aladdin's Cave, containing drawers and drawers of Romford wheels, gears, motors, W&H whitemetal detailing parts, track components, Ratio wagon kits etc., to say nothing of the much-desired boxes of loco kits by the likes of Wills, K's, Gem etc. For me, growing up in the Bath and Bristol area, the epitome of such a model shop was Max Williams at Lawrence Hill, just a few yards down from the main road overbridge adjacent to the station of the same name.

 

Although the Max Williams emporium closed in the late 1980s, such model shops continued to survive elsewhere in places that I frequented during various career moves. But by the late 1990s, a definite change was noticeable amongst those that continued to trade, in that the market was already shifting towards more (and better) RTR, more plastic injection moulded kits and fewer 'traditional' loco kits and 'after market' detailing items.

 

By the time I moved to Plymouth in the early 1990s, the shop run by Martyn Welch in the suburbs of Plymouth was still going ('Blue Peter') and I spent (mis-spent) many an extended lunch hour in there, drinking his coffee and talking about all kinds of stuff, with Martyn perhaps showing his latest weathering project to me. There was also another decent model shop closer to the railway station in Plymouth, in a suburban avenue, run by a chap called Kevin, but I can't recall the name of the business. He moved into a new unit on the station itself in the mid-1990s, but the decline in the stock held mirrored that of the business and the place eventually became a kind of club for him and his cronies to hang out and talk about football in.

 

These days, there is still a branch of Antics in Plymouth city centre, together with a branch of Games Workshop or Warhammer (not sure of the proper name), nearby.

 

Sometimes a decent model shop can be found in relatively unexpected places, such as the High Street in Newton Abbot, home to the marvellous Bekra Models (not just railways), but which is as close to a 'general modelling supplier' as you can get these days.

 

The Model Shop in Exeter, near the Iron Bridge, run by Dave Harding and familiar to those who frequented the earlier RMWeb Taunton Members days, is the nearest thing we have in South Devon to a traditional model railway shop and is also well worth a visit if you are in the area.

 

I suspect this should have been posted in a different thread, but all the outlets mentioned above sell (or used to sell) Hornby products!

 

 

.

Yes, the shop where I worked was just as you  describe. The only equivalent that I can think of today are musty old book shops run by eccentric owners . . . . . . more for the love of it than making any money!!!

 

The fact that we get almost perfect models handed to us on a plate today is good in one way of course, but I do miss the happy "doing things up to make a better model" side of the hobby. I may have the name wrong, but I think it was Craftsman Models, who had a nice little business selling kits containing all the parts you needed to do up a proprietary model to turn it from a basic model/toy into a really good representation of the real thing. There were lots of them including one to back date the Triang/Hornby BR/LNER B12 into the original GER S69 Holden version, complete with Belpaire firebox and ornamental frets over the wheel arches. (Photo of the original No. 1500 outside Stratford works in photographic grey below)

[Workbench52]

1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

It is the Aladdin's cave of MR stores. All sorts of stuff down there including historic stock IIRC.

Phil

 

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

It's a top shop, but I didn't know about the cellar. I'll ask next time I'm in there...

.

Just before packing up on the nostalgia theme . . . . because it was the Warley club's 50th birthday in 2017 one stand was made up to show what a model shop of 1967 looked like. When the word went out asking for contributions, it was surprising how much stuff members still had from that era even things like unmade Eames kits! It took me right back to the little shop where I worked in 1967. . . . but also made me realise how far we've come since those times.

[Hroth]

11 hours ago, Workbench52 said:

.

Yes, the shop where I worked was just as you  describe. The only equivalent that I can think of today are musty old book shops run by eccentric owners . . . . . . more for the love of it than making any money!!!

 

The fact that we get almost perfect models handed to us on a plate today is good in one way of course, but I do miss the happy "doing things up to make a better model" side of the hobby. I may have the name wrong, but I think it was Craftsman Models, who had a nice little business selling kits containing all the parts you needed to do up a proprietary model to turn it from a basic model/toy into a really good representation of the real thing. There were lots of them including one to back date the Triang/Hornby BR/LNER B12 into the original GER S69 Holden version, complete with Belpaire firebox and ornamental frets over the wheel arches. (Photo of the original No. 1500 outside Stratford works in photographic grey below)

 I don't think its photographic grey, just the distorted colour balance of orthochromatic film.

 

here's a very similar in-service 1544 from the early 1920s

https://www.flickr.com/photos/31514768@N05/25085042509

 

Unless they're both in GER "Wartime Grey"... 

Edited March 20, 2019 by Hroth
Unless...

[delticfan]

I nearly sold all my old Hornby and triang stuff, I think I may regret it so have decided to keep it. Would rather give it away to a youngster who might be inspired as I was to do better.

[Coryton]

20 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

How long ago were the moulds sold? Scrapyards can be very slow at converting materials back to raw state.

 

That said, one reason that they may have decided to scrap some moulds was that they had become damaged in storage.

 

Did they go to Barry?

[Vistisen]

On 17/03/2019 at 11:38, Edwardian said:

 

Possibly your email was written by a steam-age modeller, confused by the fact that one oblong on wheels looks much like another ....

 

hat ... coat ... 

I've seen old carriages used as sheds...

[Edwardian]

32 minutes ago, Vistisen said:

I've seen old carriages used as sheds...

 

and locomotives that look like sheds!

[Pacific231G]

23 hours ago, woodenhead said:

This is becoming one of those threads to ignore   Forty pages in, we had one meander on AR/VR and through me a little trip back to the end of WW2 now we're on the second regarding forum functions.

 

So here is a picture of a long lost favourite

 

Threads go on until nobody wants to contribute to them any more, then new ones appear. It would be astonishing a couple of weeks on if this one hadn't moved into a wider discussion of Hornby, its place in the hobby, the future of the hobby, whether Hornby is really Hornby, whether Hornby should be investing in new digital media or sticking to what it knows and so on. 

What has rather astonished me recently is how many people I know, not from modelling circles and often recently retired,  who are finally "building a model railway". What they mean by that is laying out Hornby setrack on a large table according to a plan in the Hornby "plans"book, buying Hornby RTR models that take their fancy and running them round and round, preferably using DCC so they can run four of them on different circuits at once. The models may be dead scale (apart from the gauge) and super detailed but the layouts are pure train set, possibly the train set layout they couldn't afford as youngsters. All these people by the way visit model railway shows so they're not unexposed to the finer scale end of the hobby.  Most of them had or wanted Hornby train sets when they were kids so buying Hornby comes naturally to them (so the brand does have considerable value)

There's nothing wrong with that of course and many people like model trains but have no interest in model railways (the track is just something to run the trains on)  but I wonder if  there is a bridge between that and something a bit more railway like without the perceived (rather than real) barriers to entry into fine scale modelling.

 

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

14 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

Threads go on until nobody wants to contribute to them any more, then new ones appear. It would be astonishing a couple of weeks on if this one hadn't moved into a wider discussion of Hornby, its place in the hobby, the future of the hobby, whether Hornby is really Hornby, whether Hornby should be investing in new digital media or sticking to what it knows and so on. 

What has rather astonished me recently is how many people I know, not from modelling circles and often recently retired,  who are finally "building a model railway". What they mean by that is laying out Hornby setrack on a large table according to a plan in the Hornby "plans"book, buying Hornby RTR models that take their fancy and running them round and round, preferably using DCC so they can run four of them on different circuits at once. The models may be dead scale (apart from the gauge) and super detailed but the layouts are pure train set, possibly the train set layout they couldn't afford as youngsters. All these people by the way visit model railway shows so they're not unexposed to the finer scale end of the hobby.  Most of them had or wanted Hornby train sets when they were kids so buying Hornby comes naturally to them (so the brand does have considerable value)

There's nothing wrong with that of course and many people like model trains but have no interest in model railways (the track is just something to run the trains on)  but I wonder if  there is a bridge between that and something a bit more railway like without the perceived (rather than real) barriers to entry into fine scale modelling.

 

 

 

I think the 'bridge' used to be the magazines (and no doubt still is in some respects).   But nowadays we should add the 'net although I'm not entirely sure how it works for somebody who is just dipping their toe in the water and is faced by all sorts of alleys and byways (if you understand the mixed metaphor?).

[Pacific231G]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

 

and locomotives that look like sheds!

I must admit to having a bit of a soft spot for class 66s. To me they're associated with the reappearance of goods trains that in my area of West London had all but disappeared in the latter years of BR. Nowadays, whenever I use the train or even walk near the railway, I seem to see one or two of them pulling something that would otherwise be on twenty to thirty lorries and though most of them are carrying pretty mundane things like stone, gravel and rubbish, they do make a nice change from the endless procession of DMUs and EMUs .

 

BTW I haven't ever seen a shed that looks even remotely like a class 66 

[Captain Kernow]

2 hours ago, Coryton said:

 

Did they go to Barry?

He didn't want them.

 

[Edwardian]

For the sake of relevance, I'll throw in a musing ...

 

If James May's programme shows one thing it shows that Hornby is a special case.  It is not mere a household name, it is the household name where trains are concerned, just as Airfix is only one manufacturer of its sort of plastic kits, but is the household name.

 

May's evident affection for these brands is no doubt shared by many and, indeed, that is probably the only basis upon which a TV show could have got commissioned on such a subject.

 

(Well, I don't see even BBC 4 screening programmes such as Bachmann Blues or Something Rotten in the State of Denmark (not that I am aware of any problems afflicting Heljan, I very quickly add))  

 

But that brand loyalty is, presumably, based upon childhood experience of Hornby. Is that loyalty, therefore, tied to the nostalgia of specific generations? 

 

I ask this because I am just too young to have nostalgia for Hornby.  When I started as a child, Mainline and Airfix were new and had raised the, then, standards of RTR.  Even as an 8-year old I eschewed Hornby as tat, as it undoubtedly was in comparison. 

 

It is only after my adult return to the hobby that I have witnessed a constant succession of re-tools and new models from Hornby that have been among the best that anyone has ever made.  That, for me, is what we have to lose if we lose Hornby.  That is why it is important that we do not lose Hornby.  Similarly, the Airfix brand has seen an impressive series of new and re-tooled kits. 

 

My point (eventually, and such as it is) is that the reasons why Hornby's survival is important are in my mind entirely disassociated with the reasons why it's a brand that has inspired such affection over the years. Is that affectionate brand-loyalty essential to the company's fortunes? Is it shared by younger generations? The failure of Hornby might not be so unthinkable to younger hobbyists?

 

I am sure among the things the current management team are trying, there will be things that work and that help, and, I suspect, there will be things that work less well and prove less helpful, but I hope the company survives because, provided it continues to produce some of the best RTR equipment out there, we cannot afford to see it go. But, I'm afraid, if it stops focusing on the highest standards, I won't grieve for its passing just because it's Hornby.

 

 

[Captain Kernow]

15 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

 

BTW I haven't ever seen a shed that looks even remotely like a class 66 

Cue someone to post a photo of their 'quirky' garden shed!

 

[Edwardian]

17 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

 

BTW I haven't ever seen a shed that looks even remotely like a class 66 

 

I never seen a steam locomotive that looked like a kettle, but you should hear some people .....!

[Hroth]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

and locomotives that look like sheds!

Oh come on, you can have pre-grouping sheds too...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GER_Class_G15

 

[Fenman]

2 hours ago, Vistisen said:

I've seen old carriages used as sheds...

 

And at least one that was used as a house - in South Wootton (a suburb of King’s Lynn), only disappearing last month. 

 

Paul

[Edwardian]

10 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Oh come on, you can have pre-grouping sheds too...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GER_Class_G15

 

 

Fair cop!

[No Decorum]

A video posted on the Oxford N7 thread started me musing. Is Mr. Kohler waiting for some unfortunate small fish to announce a new N2 before he rushes to churn out a re-tool of the ex-Airfix N2, which was “always an integral part of the Hornby range”? If he does, would he please knock out an N1 too?

 

Here’s an idea for Mr. Barber. Announce an N2 but do nothing about it. Mr. Kohler rushes one out. Meanwhile, Mr. Barber works quietly away on, let’s say, a Saint and announces it too late for Mr. Kohler to beat him to market. They get their profits, we get a Saint and a decent N2, Mr. Barber feels smug and the only looser is Mr. Kohler, who, after all, still has a winner on his hands even if he is a bit narked at being beaten at his own game. 

[Pacific231G]

57 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

For the sake of relevance, I'll throw in a musing ...

 

If James May's programme shows one thing it shows that Hornby is a special case.  It is not mere a household name, it is the household name where trains are concerned, just as Airfix is only one manufacturer of its sort of plastic kits, but is the household name.

 

May's evident affection for these brands is no doubt shared by many and, indeed, that is probably the only basis upon which a TV show could have got commissioned on such a subject.

 

(Well, I don't see even BBC 4 screening programmes such as Bachmann Blues or Something Rotten in the State of Denmark (not that I am aware of any problems afflicting Heljan, I very quickly add))  

 

But that brand loyalty is, presumably, based upon childhood experience of Hornby. Is that loyalty, therefore, tied to the nostalgia of specific generations? 

 

I ask this because I am just too young to have nostalgia for Hornby.  When I started as a child, Mainline and Airfix were new and had raised the, then, standards of RTR.  Even as an 8-year old I eschewed Hornby as tat, as it undoubtedly was in comparison. 

 

It is only after my adult return to the hobby that I have witnessed a constant succession of re-tools and new models from Hornby that have been among the best that anyone has ever made.  That, for me, is what we have to lose if we lose Hornby.  That is why it is important that we do not lose Hornby.  Similarly, the Airfix brand has seen an impressive series of new and re-tooled kits. 

 

My point (eventually, and such as it is) is that the reasons why Hornby's survival is important are in my mind entirely disassociated with the reasons why it's a brand that has inspired such affection over the years. Is that affectionate brand-loyalty essential to the company's fortunes? Is it shared by younger generations? The failure of Hornby might not be so unthinkable to younger hobbyists?

 

I am sure among the things the current management team are trying, there will be things that work and that help, and, I suspect, there will be things that work less well and prove less helpful, but I hope the company survives because, provided it continues to produce some of the best RTR equipment out there, we cannot afford to see it go. But, I'm afraid, if it stops focusing on the highest standards, I won't grieve for its passing just because it's Hornby.

 

 

I think that brand association applies elswhere too. I undertand that Maerklin have (or had)  it to a similar extent in Germany though they've long been in a curious position of incompatability,  almost as if Hornby Dublo three rail (also by now probably stud contact) was still the brand most associated in Britain with model railways. I'd be interested to know what the state of play now is with layout owners in Germany- the magazines don't tend to represent the great bulk of people who have model trains.

 

During a business discussion with its importer in the noughties, I also saw it  with Fleischmann. They were then the main German rival to Maerklin in H0 but rather more upmarket. 

 

There were layout owners in Britain who only bought Fleischmann mostly because it ran better than most other brands. They were far less concerned with what the prototypes were--almost entirely German- than that they were Fleischmann. There was apparently very limited overlap between the Fleischmann Modeller's Club and the German Railways Society or even the rest of the hobby. 

 

According to the importer, the typical Fleischmann owner was comparatively well heeled (He joked that they probably also drove a German car and not a VW) and often had their layout built professionally. That layout was typically based on a couple of long circuits around the walls of a loft or spare room, probably with some kind of station but with fairly minimal scenery, on which they could run long trains. They very rarely bought any rolling stock that wasn't Fleischmann.

 

I can't confirm how archetypical that was. Obviously many modellers used Fleischmann products alongside others (I still have one or two myself) but I think the importer knew his brand loyal market pretty well.

Edited March 20, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Hroth]

15 minutes ago, No Decorum said:

A video posted on the Oxford N7 thread started me musing. Is Mr. Kohler waiting for some unfortunate small fish to announce a new N2 before he rushes to churn out a re-tool of the ex-Airfix N2, which was “always an integral part of the Hornby range”? If he does, would he please knock out an N1 too?

 

Here’s an idea for Mr. Barber. Announce an N2 but do nothing about it. Mr. Kohler rushes one out. Meanwhile, Mr. Barber works quietly away on, let’s say, a Saint and announces it too late for Mr. Kohler to beat him to market. They get their profits, we get a Saint and a decent N2, Mr. Barber feels smug and the only looser is Mr. Kohler, who, after all, still has a winner on his hands even if he is a bit narked at being beaten at his own game. 

You know, in this brave new world of producing quick new toolings, it wouldn't surprise me if SK hadn't got a skunkworks team beavering away on the older models, especially given toolgate, to have at least completed CAD work (and at perhaps initial stereoliths) ready for such a contingency...