BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[cravensdmufan]

Watched the programme tonight on iPlayer (now I'm back in UK).

 

I found the whole hour very interesting, and enjoyed James May's style of presentation.

 

 

[robmcg]

2 minutes ago, jools1959 said:

 

Surprised to hear that as I always assumed that the iPlayer was created to be seen worldwide, ho hum lol.

 

It plays only in the UK and other parts of the world may get some programs at a price but that would depend on who you are watching or listening through, as I understand it.

[AY Mod]

It's 'cos we're already paying for it, a sort of compulsory crowdfunding.

[railroadbill]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

We had a Fireball XL5 that you launched into the air with a catapult, and it deployed a parachute to land "safely". 

 

A rail-launched one, powered by a Jetex motor would have been fun!

That sounds familiar.  I had something similar, a  catapult launched missile with a parachute.  Thanks to youtube, I now know that Fireball xl5 definitely  ran on a rail track with 2 rails when taking off.

I still have a jetex motor tucked away in the loft, it's got all the bits but only 2 fuel tablets left.  No, no , I mustn't even think about it, too many other projects to do...

[Legend]

Interesting debate , so the programs done it’s job. It’s got us talking about it, although we are already pre disposed to them

 

As to Hornby turning the corner, I think they are . That’s the GWR suburbans and Terriers arriving, as well as Coronations, Blue Flying Scotsmen etc . It’s this steady release of new models that generates revenue and is key . As I’ve said before , get their manufacturing sorted out and deliver the product whether it’s Hornby or Airfix and they should do well.   More than anything else I think this is the critical issue

[railroadbill]

5 minutes ago, Legend said:

Interesting debate , so the programs done it’s job. It’s got us talking about it, although we are already pre disposed to them

 

As to Hornby turning the corner, I think they are . That’s the GWR suburbans and Terriers arriving, as well as Coronations, Blue Flying Scotsmen etc . It’s this steady release of new models that generates revenue and is key . As I’ve said before , get their manufacturing sorted out and deliver the product whether it’s Hornby or Airfix and they should do well.   More than anything else I think this is the critical issue

Think you're spot on with that,  current Hornby locos and stock are of a high standard and Airfix have really moved ahead, not just the detail in kits but the engineering in how they are assembled. Up there with tamiya (as someone said in the program). Many years ago someone I knew who ran a model railway shop told me the key to keeping a range popular was new product.

Hornby's got some positive publicity out of this.

[Tony Davis]

3 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

We had a Fireball XL5 that you launched into the air with a catapult, and it deployed a parachute to land "safely". 

 

A rail-launched one, powered by a Jetex motor would have been fun!

I had one of those, I seem to remember there was a Steve Zodiac on a  parachute too

[andyman7]

I enjoyed the programme, it's not an academic treatise but entertainment and works on that level. I also thought the modellers came over well. Regarding the loss of the old tooling, it's unfortunate but not quite the disaster that might have once been the case. For many years beyond the 70s the lack of budget for investment meant that the only way to introduce 'new' models was often to reintroduce or adapt older ones so the tooling bank was an invaluable asset, but the sheer amount of brand new tooling since 2000 has eclipsed even the heights of the 50s/60s, all of which will be China based, so the range is far less reliant on old tools. It's also the case that although it is still very costly, the rise of CAD/CAM and modern methods have streamlined tooling production from the days when they were all hand made. This leads to the final point, that the loss of original tooling no longer precludes a model being reintroduced - original mouldings can be scanned and used to cut new tooling where the will exists. This has happened with a number of 'lost' kit moulds in the US, whilst the entire Atlas/DeAgostini DInky Toy range is made from new tooling originated this way. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by andyman7

[oleander]

1 hour ago, EHertsGER said:

Does anyone know if it will be available to stream over here in the USA?

Hi  no it wont  as BBC I player see you are not in the UK. Get a VPN set it to the UK and yes it will .

John

[Pacific231G]

17 hours ago, Roddy Angus said:

There are kits available which are made from etched parts only.  There is one which is a WW1 aircraft where the complete structure, including wing ribs etc, are made from brass.

 

If you want to play one upmanship  are there any model rail kits which are made from balsa wood and tissue and can then fly? This is a rhetorical question of course.  The use of brass etches, particularly in military modelling far outstrips its use in model rail.

 

Roddy

You want a model rail vehicle to be heavy enough to stay on the track; you want a model plane to do the exact opposite. What both have in common is that you have to compromise with scale or use some more hidden techniques to get either to behave like the real thing at scale speeds.  Film makers,  even when using fairly large scale model trains, traditionally shot them at  higher than normal camera speeds so slowing down the various elements of their motion including sway and jerkiness. That partly compensates for the different scaling of mass, inertia, gravitational acceleration, and linear size. 

Edited March 9, 2019 by Pacific231G
clarity

[Pandora]

It does not leave my thoughts, before British TV was americanised, a programme dealing with  the subject of a  long-established, formerly successful leader in the business would be  presented as a serious well-researched documentary,  and  not  defer to the facebook  flippancy  of today

Edited March 8, 2019 by Pandora

[Pacific231G]

3 hours ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

Poor Simon indeed. But looks like those signs look heavy and difficult to take down and put up again.  

Must weigh a lot from what l heard.

A real punch up. Almost as violent and dramatic as this

https://youtu.be/xhvVatP2dwo

[Corbs]

5 hours ago, C.A.T.Ford said:

 

So there you go it was go for it, or let the collectors speak for the community what would you do in that split second?

 

 

I think you made the right call, and for what it's worth I think you all came across well. Gerard's thoughts on the willing suspension of disbelief in a model appealed to me.

 

I can empathise with the amount of work gone into something that never makes it to screen, it's part of daily life, we once shot about 36 hours of video footage that had to be edited down into a sub-4 minute film! 

[south_tyne]

13 hours ago, Legend said:

We were all worried at how model railway enthusiasts would be portrayed in the Great Model Railway Challenge , and yet apart from some crappy music and the cringing tannoy announcement  "5 minutes left" generally it did it pretty well .  But here we had references to no woman , faces of young people blanked out so as not to affect their chances of getting a girlfriend in the future. Really that's quite insulting , but because its James May he seems to get away with it . In any case isn't there a legal reason while peoples faces would be blanked out , reading some of the above. Really surprised given our nervousness about GMRC before it aired there's not more of an outcry about this

 

 

As others have confirmed there will be legal issues for the blanking out. As I said previously, the one thing I found disappointing was the overwhelming male, older, grey haired, white, slightly eccentric demographic overwhelmingly portrayed throughout.

 

Personally I found the girlfriend comment funny. It was tongue in cheek and I think it is vital we don't take ourselves too serious as a hobby.... this is supposed to be fun, as I expect this programme should be. I think James May presented the subject matter excellently and got the balance right between the serious aspects of the business side and the more light-hearted gentle teasing of some aspects of the hobby. Let's face it, there are plenty of strange folk and rituals involved in railway modelling (and I am happy to admit this as an enthusiast).

 

12 hours ago, Sprintex said:

 

Whilst I realise that was a tongue-firmly-in-cheek comment I would like to add that some of us that are on the spectrum, as in the ASD/Asperger's spectrum, have no more 'needs' than anyone else - we just have different social interaction levels and/or sensory difficulties 

 

Paul 

 

Very much so. Again, I think we don't need to take things too seriously but obviously there are those which are affected by health problems that are lumped together as being "on the spectrum." I would guess that there is a higher proprtion of sufferers who are involved in the hobby than would be representative of the whole population. Hobbies and tasks that offer a chance for control and order are often theraputic for such conditions. 

[south_tyne]

7 hours ago, Pete Darton said:

Manufacturing maybe cheaper in China but the cost of the product has continued to rise to the customer. Where has the saving gone? Maybe it has saved Hornby from collapsing or has it gone into share holders pockets.

 

there are pro and cons of production in China, we know what the pro are. The con are language issue between head office and China. Less communication between head office and production staff because of distance between the countries causing production issues. Also as China develop economically they will charge more and then what happens to production?

 

I think the need to raise the standard of living, wages and quality of life for workers in emerging markets such as China is critical and if there is an increase in the cost of toys for the western markets then so be it. Improving lives and reducing inequality is far more important than the price of our trains. 

[blueeighties]

16 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

The answer is in my post - same point motor, but one is set up to be run by DC and the other by DCC. I don't know how much clearer my post could have been.

Sigh. There's always one.

[Roddy Angus]

Sorry everyone, the point I was trying to make with my earlier postings was that all branches of modelling are important and we should never assume that one is better than the others.  I find more ways to improve my modelling skills by reading military modelling magazines than I do from model rail magazines.  A lot of the content in model rail magazines is focused on complete layouts, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the majority of the content in military modelling magazines are about how a model was built and the techniques used to make it.

 

Next time you are in Smith's, have a look at magazines about other branches of modelling and you might be amazed by what you can learn.

 

All branches of modelling involve different  techniques but there is nothing to stop us learning from them.

 

My point about Airfix was meant to be that if you compare the size of the market for plastic kits with that for model rail world wide, model rail is small in comparison.  That is why Airfix might be more important to Hornby than model rail.

 

Please don't see this as trying to start an argument, I just want to say that no aspect of modelling is better than another, they are just different.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy

 

Ps. I should say my other hobby is R/C boats and there is only one magazine for that.  That is a far smaller hobby than model rail.

[PaulRhB]

8 hours ago, Pandora said:

It does not leave my thoughts, before British TV was americanised, a programme dealing with  the subject of a  long-established, formerly successful leader in the business would be  presented as a serious well-researched documentary,  and  not  defer to the facebook  flippancy  of today

There are plenty of serious documentaries, the programme that followed it is an excellent example, but this was primarily an entertainment show. You can still tell a story but James May has built his tv career not taking things terribly seriously but showing that technical subjects can be entertaining and fun. 

 

The criticisms are as broad strokes as the way the story is being told

I think Hornby have played the pr card very well in ep1and they have a sympathetic ear in James May and the others quoted in the programme who all want Hornby to succeed. 

It’s a good advert for the traditional company struggling to change to the modern world and build confidence. Do we really want it slammed across two hours and the investors left thinking it's a no hoper? Many of the investors will take media trends as a major influence these days. 

Like I said before Mr K has proved he can spin a positive story with a bit of drama to hook in the media. 

I think so far it does Hornby a huge favour in image that they are turning it around so let’s hope that and the physical models do just that  

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by PaulRhB

[railroadbill]

1 hour ago, Roddy Angus said:

Sorry everyone, the point I was trying to make with my earlier postings was that all branches of modelling are important and we should never assume that one is better than the others.  I find more ways to improve my modelling skills by reading military modelling magazines than I do from model rail magazines.  A lot of the content in model rail magazines is focused on complete layouts, and there is nothing wrong with that, but the majority of the content in military modelling magazines are about how a model was built and the techniques used to make it.

 

Next time you are in Smith's, have a look at magazines about other branches of modelling and you might be amazed by what you can learn.

 

All branches of modelling involve different  techniques but there is nothing to stop us learning from them.

 

My point about Airfix was meant to be that if you compare the size of the market for plastic kits with that for model rail world wide, model rail is small in comparison.  That is why Airfix might be more important to Hornby than model rail.

 

Please don't see this as trying to start an argument, I just want to say that no aspect of modelling is better than another, they are just different.

 

Best wishes

 

Roddy

 

Ps. I should say my other hobby is R/C boats and there is only one magazine for that.  That is a far smaller hobby than model rail.

Agree totally with you on this.  earlier on this thread there was a link (can't find it) to a P1 Lightning model that was scratch built and covered with foil. Made me dig out my "bare metal" foil sheet.  Certainly military and aircraft techniques are transferable to railways, particularly weathering.

I'm also thinking of the really good "Overlord" layout about a port in the run up to D Day, that has excellent ship, vehicle and train models, plus buildings etc. 

James May pointed out that the most popular scale for Airfix was 1:72 so a lot of their kits are usable with oo.

Triang used to make working boat models, there was a tug (that I had) and a trawler, life boat cabin cruisers and so on. Hornby (as was) used to make clockwork speed boats back in the 1930s.  Also there were the Triang Minic 1:1200 scale die cast ships.  The demand for all that has gone (as something to buy ready made in a high street shop) but trains and kits continue.

 

Also into r/c boats, there is a very good forum that Model Boats do, lots of advice like RMweb.

Edited March 9, 2019 by railroadbill

[The Johnster]

Pretty sure I remember Triang doing a plastic Union Castle liner, a huge thing about 3 feet long and available with R/C.  It cost a bit and I doubt it made them any money, but was very impressive.  I only ever saw one, on a visit to Hamley's in Regent Street in maybe '62 or 3. I had the trawler, battery powered, and it used to perform satisfactorily enough on the local boating lake, or doing lengths of the bath, and wasn't a bad little model; certainly less toy-like than much of what was around at the time.  A problem was that the wheelhouse windows were not glazed and the thing hence not seaworthy in rough conditions or a collision with a duck!  About 6 inches long and not too far off for 00 IIRC.

[Jeff Smith]

I don't think anyone has mentioned Hornby's OO live steam efforts.  A friend of mine in the US bought a set but we could never get it to run well.....either stationary or so fast it fell off on the curves!

[south_tyne]

On 08/03/2019 at 23:28, Pandora said:

It does not leave my thoughts, before British TV was americanised, a programme dealing with  the subject of a  long-established, formerly successful leader in the business would be  presented as a serious well-researched documentary,  and  not  defer to the facebook  flippancy  of today

 

17 hours ago, PaulRhB said:

There are plenty of serious documentaries, the programme that followed it is an excellent example, but this was primarily an entertainment show. You can still tell a story but James May has built his tv career not taking things terribly seriously but showing that technical subjects can be entertaining and fun. 

 

 

I simply did not get that impression of "flippancy" at all from watching the show. I thought May trod the line between humour and seriousness perfectly. As Paul says, this was a show for entertainment and it entertained me. However, I also learned a lot too! I would say I was a very average modeller, with a range of other hobbies and interests, but felt it was pitched perfectly for my needs without any descent to being condescending. 

 

I enjoyed the programme which followed too. Importantly this showed all aspects of the hobby, from trainsets to true artists like Iain Rice and Maggie and Gordon Gravett. I would think it was an interesting watch for all too, from the potential new entrant to the hobby, to very ordinary folk like myself with a little experience but with limited talent and ability, all the way through to the master modeller. 

 

As I have said before (so apologies for sounding like a stuck record), the amount of publicity railway modelling is getting in the mainstream media at the moment is amazing. The hobby should be embracing this and riding on the crest of a wave!

Edited March 10, 2019 by south_tyne
Spelling

[Martin S-C]

6 hours ago, blueeighties said:

Sigh. There's always one.

I agree. You describe yourself perfectly.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Martin S-C

[Pacific231G]

15 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

I don't think anyone has mentioned Hornby's OO live steam efforts.  A friend of mine in the US bought a set but we could never get it to run well.....either stationary or so fast it fell off on the curves!

 

The OO live steam set - which is electrically incompatible with any other OO system  - wasn't the only time that Hornby and its predecessors had dipped their toes into live steam and other non-mainstream model railway products. I woder if they could have had more success if they'd made it compatible with DCC (though probably with a more than usually powerful power supply) .

 

In 1976-78 they produced the live steam 3.5" gauge Rocket. I had one though many years later . It was ingenious and the cylinders had valve gear rather than the oscillating cylinder that Mamod etc. offered but it had major flaws. The plastic track had far higher rolling resistance than steel track so  the already marginal performance from a necessarily low pressure boiler meant it could barely shift itself on anything but a dead flat surface let alone pull a couple of the L&M coaches they later produced. More seriously, to charge the plastic gas tank you had to unscrew it, then fill it from a lighter refill cylinder before refitting it. The trouble was that the process of filling invariably froze the O rings so the gas escaped (I think quite seriously that If the right person at NASA had owned one these things the  Challenger disaster ten years later might have been averted) In the end I bought an after-market gas tank which improved things but it ended up as a shelf ornament. 

 

A decade earlier the Margate company had come up with a 10¼” gauge railway, The “Tri-ang Minic Narrowgauge Railway (TMNR) manufactured between 1963-1965. As a youngster I remember being fascinated by the adverts in RM for this but it would definitely have been a rich kid's toy, A complete set with 35V 20amp transformer, electric loco, two "pullman" coaches and an oval of track (for which with 18ft diameter curves you'd need a space of at least 112ft x 40 ft) would have set you back £292 3s 6p (about £5- 6000 in today's money)  so I don't know what they thought the market for this was. In the end they only made about 80 locos and I think most of what they made went to showmen and Butlins holiday camps (for this market produced a more powerful loco with two motors)  rather than to private customers.  They did advertise a rather cheaper "shunting loco"  for £79  or as a complete set with a smaller 48ft x 24ft oval for £128 but I don't think this ever saw the light of day.

The track was sectional with folded galvanised steel rail on wooden speepers. Word is that about 20 of the locos still survive though most seem to have been converted to internal battery power and there is a TMNR club. 

[Coryton]

16 minutes ago, Pacific231G said:

 

The OO live steam set - which is electrically incompatible with any other OO system  - wasn't the only time that Hornby and its predecessors had dipped their toes into live steam and other non-mainstream model railway products. I woder if they could have had more success if they'd made it compatible with DCC (though probably with a more than usually powerful power supply) .

 

My recollection (could be false) is that it was developed by a third party who then managed to sell the idea to Hornby.