BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[woodenhead]

1 minute ago, Widnes Model Centre said:

 

No, but please share your thoughts.

 

Wasn't anything negative about Liverpool, just the reaction as everyone would need to move (or take redundancy)

 

somit it was a tongue in cheek comment not a go at Liverpool

[Jeff Smith]

Regarding the Terrier, do we know the relative prices, I think the Hornby one was mentioned.  There will presumably be review comparisons, unless of course RofS cancel theirs.

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Jeff Smith said:

unless of course RofS cancel theirs.

 

Not going to happen.

[Jeff Smith]

Why do you say that?

[woodenhead]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Not going to happen.

Especially now they have got Spillers to enter into model railway manufacturing.

[57xx]

Thought it was nice to see a young designer taking up a role there, something she'd harboured ambitions for from childhood.

[RJS1977]

57 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

"It's our model" says Kohler proprietarily about the Terrier. "It's always been part of our range." The comparison with his unwillingness to admit he was doing a spoiler on Hattons' 66 was fascinating.
 

 

Strictly speaking though it hasn't always been a part of their range, as it was originally introduced by Dapol, who are making the Rails version!

 

Personally I think Hornby would have been better relegating their existing Terrier to Railroad and letting Rails get on with theirs rather than wasting money on new tooling. 

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Why do you say that?

 

I said it to flatten an incorrect speculation, that's why.

[newbryford]

The best scene was SK gently patting the Terrier display on the top, like petting a faithful hound!

[Widnes Model Centre]

9 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Wasn't anything negative about Liverpool, just the reaction as everyone would need to move (or take redundancy)

 

somit it was a tongue in cheek comment not a go at Liverpool

 

I never said it was a go at Liverpool.

 

But I do remember how my mother felt when she left Binns Road for the last time. She contemplated moving but decided to take her skills into the aerospace industry.

[Miss Prism]

3 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Strictly speaking though it hasn't always been a part of their range, as it was originally introduced by Dapol, who are making the Rails version!

 

Quite so, but it only underlines how incestuous the current situation is and the irony/hypocrisy of any manufacturer claiming proprietorial rights over any prototype.

 

Time was when Kohler and Hubbard could have a quiet word with each other and agree not to tread too much on each others' toes. Those days are gone.

 

[MrTea]

I enjoyed tonight’s second instalment. It certainly looks like we’re in for some interesting times in the coming years. 

 

Who’d have thought we’d have had this and the Great Model Railway Challenge (which funnily enough didn’t get a mention) on TV within the space of a few months?

 

Look forward to seeing the new models in the flesh and seeing which ones do well!

[Clearwater]

Just now, RJS1977 said:

 

Strictly speaking though it hasn't always been a part of their range, as it was originally introduced by Dapol, who are making the Rails version!

 

Personally I think Hornby would have been better relegating their existing Terrier to Railroad and letting Rails get on with theirs rather than wasting money on new tooling. 

 

The fact is we don't really know how any decisions were actually made.  This is an, admittedly enjoyable, extended piece of advertising from Hornby which SK will have wanted spun to present things in a certain way.  Otherwise he would not have agreed to co-operate with the programme (which I'd wager was his idea).  Now the TV company will have pushed back on certain things but probably not everything.  Also worth noting that TV is edited and it can be the case that what we see on the screen isn't in strict chronological order and may have been edited to present in a particular way.

 

On the tooling, we don't know what the factory was saying to Hornby. E.g. We have a slot for tooling, either you take it at this price or else we use it elsewhere or if you want the production slot that is otherwise going spare, you'll have to chip in for new tooling or indeed we don't know if after 30 years of use, the prior Terrier tooling was still capable of being used (or lost in transit in one of the factory moves under prior management).  What we've seen on the screen is a presentation of the outcome with a certain marketing elan.  Hornby may well have made a virtue out of something that they had to do anyway.  We can't / don't know unless we were in the boardroom when the investment decision was made.

 

David

[Widnes Model Centre]

 

I thought it was an excellent piece of television. Great advertising on Hornby's part. They got the Hogwarts set, a Scalextric advert and so on,  onto a BBC channel. Marketing at, in my opinion it's very best. The announcement regarding the move back to Margate and the reaction of the employees? Pure editing , made for a James May type comment.

 

Won't comment on the Shed Wars or the Yorkshire Terrier. Other than for the sake of clarity, "The Hattons Rep/Chap", is Richard Davies, the owner of Hattons.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Widnes Model Centre

[Miss Prism]

Very revealing subtext to the 'big mistake' scene on the Terrier. Kohler and his head of development Ed are frustrated because of the draft release angle 'they' have put on the dome.

 

'They' is someone else. 'They' is the Chinese factory.

 

If I had been the narrator, I think I would have chipped in with the obvious "Errr, hang on Hornby, why didn't you know what the draft angle is? Are you supposed to be in charge of this design, or what?"
 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Miss Prism

[Clearwater]

5 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Very revealing subtext to the 'big mistake' scene on the Terrier. Kohler and his head of development Ed are frustrated because of the draft release angle 'they' have put on the dome.

 

'They' is someone else. 'They' is the Chinese factory.

 

If I had been the narrator, I think I would have chipped in with the obvious "Errr, hang on Hornby, why didn't you know what the draft angle is? Are you supposed to be in charge of this design, or what?"
 

 

Staged to illustrate the process and the type of thing that happens?  We never saw a follow-up to that scene on resolving the problem and whether it was going to delay production.

[Flying Pig]

52 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

More interesting than part 1. The most revealing aspect was the new product designer getting the dimensions wrong on what should be standard mechanism parts. Insufficient attention to having basic mechanism elements standardised: that should be automated by now so the designer cannot create an error.

 

If indeed she did get the dimension wrong. Half a mil is half a mile, even for a raw graduate and she seemed awfully sanguine when tasked with it. Bit of TV perhaps? Like Warley setting up even as the crowds are massing outside the hall...

 

[Guest]

Obviously considerable money to be made as a toy - sorry model - train market judging be the rails of Sheffield proprietors Jag f type!

[Accurascale Fran]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

Well, they did film a lot with your Warley stand in the background that didn't appear. I know, because I filmed them between you and Andy for our interview.

 

I did do a bit with Simon, who I had never met before, about the Deltic, but there seemed to be a bit of a dog fight going on elsewhere that probably distracted him. All the signs were there anyway...

 

At least the person who has to add the subtitles was spared having to decode my accent as that piece was cut out!

 

Really well done documentary. It's interesting times in the hobby and in the industry at our end, and I think even more interesting things are to come. 

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

[barrymx5]

The programme may have been SK’s idea but I didn’t think he came out of it too well. The arguments he put forward about the Terrier just was not convincing. In fact, as has been pointed out above, is inaccurate. Hornby under various managements has had a habit of being on the verge of producing a model which did not appear until a rival announced one eg Adams Radial. 

I found the Rails and Hatton’s argument compelling that they were forced into manufacturing because of Hornby's lack of new models. And yes SK did come across as sly. He no doubt would have used the word wily. 

Hornby has definitely been slow to innovate. Coach lighting, easy fit DCC, smokebox flicker, realistic tender coal,  synchronised sound etc etc should all have been pursued instead of non NMRA chips and second rate DCC control systems in competition with electronic specialists. 

That said I have been happy to purchase a whole range of Hornby LSWR/SR locos and coaches; T9s, Bulleid Pacifics, King Arhur’s, S15s, Black Motors and M7s plus of course Maunsell coaches. But even here the quality has not always been quite right with failing T9 chassis with metal rot, M7s where installing a DCc chip required removing weights and Maunsell non corridor coaches which are not free running because of a design fault. 

 

Yes I wish Hornby good luck but I do not feel any particular warmth or loyalty towards them. 

[woodenhead]

18 minutes ago, 071 said:

 

Really well done documentary. It's interesting times in the hobby and in the industry at our end, and I think even more interesting things are to come.

What else do you have up your sleeve, a Flying Scotsman 

[WIMorrison]

When did Margate become the 'spiritual home' of Hornby? I always thought that Margate was Lines Brothers (Tri-ang and Rovex) and that Binns Road in Liverpool was the spiritual home of Hornby?

 

EDIT - found this link showing the real home of Hornby

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cldkn2REZ-U

 

 

Edited March 14, 2019 by WIMorrison

[woodenhead]

2 minutes ago, barrymx5 said:

The programme may have been SK’s idea but I didn’t think he came out of it too well. The arguments he put forward about the Terrier just was not convincing. In fact, as has been pointed out above, is inaccurate. Hornby under various managements has had a habit of being on the verge of producing a model which did not appear until a rival announced one eg Adams Radial. 

I found the Rails and Hatton’s argument compelling that they were forced into manufacturing because of Hornby's lack of new models. And yes SK did come across as sly. He no doubt would have used the word wily. 

Hornby has definitely been slow to innovate. Coach lighting, easy fit DCC, smokebox flicker, realistic tender coal,  synchronised sound etc etc should all have been pursued instead of non NMRA chips and second rate DCC control systems in competition with electronic specialists. 

That said I have been happy to purchase a whole range of Hornby LSWR/SR locos and coaches; T9s, Bulleid Pacifics, King Arhur’s, S15s, Black Motors and M7s plus of course Maunsell coaches. But even here the quality has not always been quite right with failing T9 chassis with metal rot, M7s where installing a DCc chip required removing weights and Maunsell non corridor coaches which are not free running because of a design fault. 

 

Yes I wish Hornby good luck but I do not feel any particular warmth or loyalty towards them. 

All parties in those arguments knew the cameras were there and reacted with a mix of managed anger and then smiles, it wasn't the real deal.

 

Hattons are correct that to protect their business and with a lack of product they had to act, but it wasn't just Hornby that was starving them of product.  

 

I wouldn't be surprised if seeded forum topics tested the water for the appetite for new Terriers before Rails & Dapol took the plunge to create a new mass market model, with the money they will have invested they will have been pretty upset that their sales will be slightly dented by the Hornby model.  Having said that, Hornby have history when challenged so Rails should have expected some form of response so maybe it wasn't a complete surprise to them.

 

At least they aren't taking these challenges lying down and usually this sort of competition drives advances in quality whilst keeping prices keen.

[Wild Boar Fell]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

 

An interesting among SK's office models was a 'Clan' - a subtle hint or just a case of happenstance?  Ah well it will give folk something to froth about - best start a separate thread for that one

 

Not re-watched it to check, but for some reason I read the name as Clan Kohler. Probably just me continuing to lose the plot... 

[south_tyne]

Well I must say I really enjoyed the second episode tonight. My personal thoughts, for what they are worth (probably not a lot!)........ 

 

The tension between SK and both Rails and Hattons was palpable. The approach taken by Hornby seems a little underhand and sly, but I am sure this kind of thing goes on all the time in the commercial sector - to be honest, I have no experience at all in the private sector or in business, so feel rather naive as to what goes on! There are positive and negative consequences for duplication, which have been discussed at length elsewhere here, so I won't rake over old ground. Saying that, this was a show to provide entertainment so a little staged drama is envitable and all part of the fun! We all realise as we watch that elements may have been staged for effect. 

 

The comment I would make is that Hornby do seem to have a bizarre way of approaching their relationship with the country's two biggest retailers and, as the programme confirmed, the top placers of orders for their new products. You wonder if that strategy will be destructive in the long-term. I hope not for all the parties concerned. 

 

I was pleased to see Warley show featured as a good advert for the hobby. Although, once again, the patrons were overwhelmingly white, grey-haired males..... but I won't get on that soapbox again!

 

A negative for me was the old duffer who is the archivist. I'm honestly surprised that Hornby allowed that segment of the show to go out. With his negative, backward-looking attitude I didn't think it painted the company in a very good light at all. I'm sure others will disagree but I found him highly annoying! I also found his hanging comment very inappropriate and in extremely bad taste. 

 

I really enjoyed James May's approach to presenting once more; light-hearted, accessible and not too serious, without falling into the trap of cheap stereotypes or being condescending. 

 

Overall, I think these programmes have been a good advert for Hornby and excellent exposure for the hobby as a whole. Let's hope that it leads to an increase in sales of the companies products and the interest in model railways across the board.