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BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain


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39 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

I enjoyed watching the programme but I would like to mention a few points.

 

Hornby seems to be rewriting history by suggesting that its ancestry comes from Hornby produced by Meccano.  The present Hornby company is descended from Rovex and Tri-ang Railways. It is still making products introduced by Tri-ang like the R044 black points switch and R8008 Grand Suspension Bridge. Tri-ang brought model railways into the price range of ordinary children and Hornby should be proud of their predecessor.  Perhaps they should have pictures of Lines Brothers in a glass case showing how the name Tri-ang was derived from a triangle representing the three Lines brothers rather than a picture of Frank Hornby.

 

The Terrier is not a model that has nearly always been in the Margate range like the Princess or the Britannia.  The Terrier originated with Dapol and Hornby acquired the tools. Having said that the Terrier has been in the Hornby range for a long time and any rival firm would expect Hornby to upgrade it. If it takes two years to develop a project Hornby's decision to make a new Terrier was probably taken long before Simon Kohler returned to Hornby and before Rails announced their intention to build a Terrier.

 

Similarly the Class 66 has been produced by Bachmann from 2005 and by Hornby from 2007 so I am surprised that Hattons decided to produce a model that is already well catered for

No doubt there would have been some preparatory work done on a just-in-case basis but Simon himself said it had been done in nine months in this instance.

 

My own guess is that, as the old Terrier was still selling quite well, Hornby wouldn't have bothered with a new one so soon had not Rails forced their hand.

 

The Hatton's Class 66 isn't a competitor for Hornby's Railroad-level item, it's intended to wipe the floor with anything previously produced. That's one reason why Bachmann have got their knickers in such a twist over it. 

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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An interesting second episode, with lots of business between Hornby, Rails and Hattons over the Terriers and Class 66s.

 

Did I doze off, or was it skated over that Hornby had also poached the Lord Nelson off Bachmann for the same reasons that Rails gave for their Terrier, or that the Large Prairie update was brought forward to counter the Dapol proposal?

 

Perhaps that would have been overegging the pudding... :jester:

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11 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

On the contrary, he appeared to really miffed at what is clearly a direct attempt to undermine his business plans.

 

 

Although, of course, the potential for undermining business cuts both ways.

 

G

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51 minutes ago, Robin Brasher said:

Hornby seems to be rewriting history by suggesting that its ancestry comes from Hornby produced by Meccano.  The present Hornby company is descended from Rovex and Tri-ang Railways. It is still making products introduced by Tri-ang like the R044 black points switch and R8008 Grand Suspension Bridge. Tri-ang brought model railways into the price range of ordinary children and Hornby should be proud of their predecessor.  Perhaps they should have pictures of Lines Brothers in a glass case showing how the name Tri-ang was derived from a triangle representing the three Lines brothers rather than a picture of Frank Hornby.

 

While I'm sure I'd be fascinated by a treatise on the labyrinthine history of the Hornby & Tri-ang names, the viewing figures would be lucky to hit 100. On the plus side, you could use the whole of Wagner's ring cycle as the background music, there would be plenty of time!

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2 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

...... Hornby wouldn't have bothered with a new one had not Rails forced their hand.........

 

As mentioned earlier, the same with Peco's bullhead track.

That's often the problem with long standing monopolies, either in entirety, in market segments or in product items. No incentive to improve, often leading to stale and dated offerings. The consumer is left with poor choice and sometimes, poor value.

Enter the threat of serious competition and either things get stirred up, or the sleeping incumbent goes to the wall.

 

Think positively.

If Rails are successful with their Terrier, we will have a choice of a quite good Hornby model and (possibly?) a super dooper Rails/Dapol model.

Surely that's a big improvement on the Hobson's Choice of a crude, dated RailRoad quality toy, or nothing?

 

Ron

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I enjoyed the Hornby & Rails show last night, and although Son of Hedley might have been a bit miffed at the Terrier duplication he must be over the moon at the amount of free TV advertising Rails got last night.  (I think I twigged his choice of car reg. as well, 007 - licensed to kill, 0007 - licensed to print. Just jestin', John, if you read this.)

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This programme met it's objective, to show Hornby isn't going away - it is aggressively holding on to what it has and adding new stuff in as well.

 

Hattons will sell it's 66s still, the people who will buy the Railroad 66 wouldn't have bought Hatton's target Bachmann 66.

 

Terriers are an ongoing selling model, there is probably space for two manufacturers over a long period of time.

 

Just because it is model railways shouldn't mean that the business should operate any differently to any other business - they are all in it to get their product to market first and make a profit.  Hattons and Rails appreciate this as much as Hornby as do Accurascale, Dapol, Revolution, Rapido, DJM and all the other companies vying to sell us product.

 

At the moment I believe the loser is Bachmann - Lord Nelson, 66 and Deltic with new manufacturers and delays in their own models and in some cases actual ranges being shelved (N J72)

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19 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Despite the supposed "different markets" and the notable differences in quality, detail and price, there will still be a certain degree of dilution of sales of the Hattons model. 

 

What goes round comes around I guess. When I was a kid I called in at Gee Dee's with my holiday money to buy a Hornby Western. Came away with a Lima version AND a Deltic for the same money .......

 

Nothing new in duplication in the marketplace or a competitor having a cheaper version to tempt the price conscious buyer ;)

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1 hour ago, t8hants said:

No one has mentioned the VR section of the programme.  If in the near future, you will build your Airfix Spitfire 'on screen' in VR and then take off and fight the dastardly Hun in endless air battles, where does that leave the need for space cluttering real models?  Likewise we have had low definition build your own layout simulators for years, but when they finally crack HD VR railways, any era, place, or stock, again confined to the system of your choice, who will want to take up valuable physical space in ever shrinking sized homes with a real layout. 

 

If I could create a layout where I could take a stroll through the countryside, and watch the shunting in the yard I have created, or get underneath the loco and watch the motion, even sit in the fire-box and watch the coal coming in, perhaps take a drink the pub, be a guest at the wedding, or help fight the fire: in other words be a participant in the the hundred and one different scenarios modellers have created in static models, why would I want to bother with space consuming largely static conventional layout?  If such a system was available now, I perhaps wouldn't even consider traditional railway modeling and I'm in my mid sixties. 

 

Hornby must go down that path, or they will be like the British bike industry of the sixties, blind to the winds of change, luckily the UK is renown for it high quality VR work, so the future should remain bright for Hornby, but we might not recognize the company in the future.

 

You can do everything you mention already. If we are looking at VR, there are people with several years head start on Hornby and bigger budgets.

 

I suggest though that people who spend 8 hours+ in front of a screen for work might enjoy some non-screen time outside work. You might like to live in the world of Ready Player One, but I'll pass thanks.

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Now seen episode 2 of Kohler Pulls it Off.

 

Pure spin re the Terrier. Not a Hornby model!

 

I don't know what Hornby paid for the Dapol OO Terrier tooling, but it has pennies worth of plastic in each model and they have been milking it for years.  A new Terrier was long overdue and as Hornby concealed its belated plans, who can blame a retailer that needs to fill its shelves from taking the initiative?  Well, SK, that's who. 

 

While insisting to Hattons that the Class 66 was not done in spite, SK could clearly not resist playing the diabolical Bond Villain with several sinister to camera comments.  He seemed unaware of the irony of his complaints about Rails' banners, while secretly planning to get one over on Rails.  Perhaps, though, a guilty conscience bred paranoia; Hattons had high banners, too, clearly in shot, but its stall did not happen to be directly behind Hornby's. 

 

I'm sure if you are a retailer who spends £1million a year with Hornby, you have conversations with them about what to expect in the future range, and clearly SK deliberately concealed any Terrier plans. The impression the programme gave was that the long-term plan to re-tool the Terrier was in abeyance but was belatedly revived, and then rushed, in order to spike the Rails/Dapol version.  SK admitted, when challenged by John of Rails, that the 66 and the Terrier were spoilers.

 

That said, I can see that there are sound commercial reasons for wanting to keep these locos in the range, but the problem seems to have been one of Hornby's making in the first place, as Hattons and Rails were only filling a product void left by Hornby.  The Hornby attitude of "don't park your tanks on my lawn" seemed a little, well, childish, and the spoiling tactics seemed, well, a bit sneaky. I wonder if I am alone in thinking that SK was not presenting such an attractive side as he did in the first episode? I thought John of Rails' comment about whether SK would have joined Slytherin was apt and rather witty.  The response, that Rails of Sheffield might be burnt down, possibly less so.  

 

The ends seem to have justified the means, however, with strong take up of the 2019 range, not least, inevitably, by Hattons and Rails. But, SK has, it seems to me, opened a Pandora's box by insisting that all's fair in love and model trains. To replace a state of relative openness and co-operation with one of open warfare might be thought a high risk strategy that may result in further duplication, waste and casualties. One of those casualties might be Hornby. Retailers need manufacturers less than manufacturers need retailers, when retailers can use a rival or go direct to a Chinese factory. And a still fragile Hornby has just declared open season on the two biggest retailers.   

 

A highly entertaining programme, but with a simplistic premise; Hornby's last set of managers inexplicably ran it down, but, in 12 months, Our Hero turns it round.

 

The reality is that the strategy we have seen is one of a number that Hornby have employed over recent years, none of which has, so far, made a decisive difference.  As a key part of the current strategy is deliberately to go head to head with Hornby's two biggest customers over projects in which these customers have no doubt invested many tens of thousands, it may, to say the least, prove a double-edged sword.  So, for me, the programme left the jury out on whether the current management have a plan that is any sounder than things tried in the past.  

 

I have doubts that the industry landscape that SK is creating by his current strategy will prove to be a healthy one.   

 

EDIT: In my post on episode 1 I said that I thought it was one-sided, telling the story simply from the new team's point of view.  It is only fair to the filmmakers to say that in episode 2 they did screen the voices of those reacting to what Hornby has done, thus introducing some balance.  I thought, though, SK's own telling of the Hornby journey looked increasingly less sympathetic or attractive as the episode went on.  

Edited by Edwardian
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10 hours ago, woodenhead said:

What would happen if Rails and Accurascale come out with a 47, Bachmann might be able to lose one big online retailer but two?

 

Hornby could be said to be the more positive of the two manufacturers 

Don't overlook the fact that Rails also commission from Bachmann (as have Kernow) which must make a difference.   In any event Bachmann shedding Hattons should hardly present them with a problem because those who wish to buy their products will simply go elsewhere, and have done - to the benefit of other retailers.

 

10 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

Very revealing subtext to the 'big mistake' scene on the Terrier. Kohler and his head of development Ed are frustrated because of the draft release angle 'they' have put on the dome.

 

'They' is someone else. 'They' is the Chinese factory.

 

If I had been the narrator, I think I would have chipped in with the obvious "Errr, hang on Hornby, why didn't you know what the draft angle is? Are you supposed to be in charge of this design, or what?"
 

Odd coincidence there.   When I was looking at a photo posted the other day of a new Hornby Terrier someone had just bought I thought I was looking at a draft angle on the dome - the particular angle of the photo made it show up.  

 

10 hours ago, 071 said:

 

I did do a bit with Simon, who I had never met before, about the Deltic, but there seemed to be a bit of a dog fight going on elsewhere that probably distracted him. All the signs were there anyway...

 

At least the person who has to add the subtitles was spared having to decode my accent as that piece was cut out!

 

Really well done documentary. It's interesting times in the hobby and in the industry at our end, and I think even more interesting things are to come. 

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

You mean you didn't get told off for 'stealing' the Class 92 from Hornby?   :jester: :jester:

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26 minutes ago, newbryford said:

 

SK did remark that the Terrier took a record 9 months from start to finish, so pretty much puts it entirely within his current tenancy at Hornby.

 

 

I seem to recall that when he was trying to defend his actions to Mr Rails down at the Hornby HQ, he also said the project had started during his first tenure. It can't be both, so which is the truth? 

 

As a non-partisan person with no colours nailed to any manufacturer's mast, he came across to me as a petty and sly person. 

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38 minutes ago, grahame said:

 

Although, of course, the potential for undermining business cuts both ways.

 

G

If Hornby did it right first time*, there'd be no need for Hattons, or anyone else for that matter, to 'undermine their business'. They could just stick to shifting those lovely boxes.

 

* by this, I don't mean 100% perfect, just before anyone accuses me of wanting perfection "at railroad prices" :rolleyes:

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38 minutes ago, Hroth said:

An interesting second episode, with lots of business between Hornby, Rails and Hattons over the Terriers and Class 66s.

 

Did I doze off, or was it skated over that Hornby had also poached the Lord Nelson off Bachmann for the same reasons that Rails gave for their Terrier, or that the Large Prairie update was brought forward to counter the Dapol proposal?

 

Perhaps that would have been overegging the pudding... :jester:

The large prairie was not brought forward to counter the Dapol excressence and that should be obvious from the fairly advanced state in which it was shown at the time of Hornby releasing their 2019 programme and the fact that its release is coincident with GW non-gangwayed coaching stock.  The only difference is that it was announced after the Dapol thing and I suspect that if 'The Engine Shed' had still be going in its former fashion we would have seen some pretty concrete evidence of the prairie's advanced state of development immediately after the Dapol image had been released, just as happened with the Hattons 'King' where Hornby was also clearly a long way ahead.

 

Thing is when Hornby go back to the past in making all their announcements in a sort of big bang fashion some parts of the market can be easily misled regarding who is copying whom (although it's pretty clear who is copying whom when it comes to the Terrier)

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48 minutes ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

...For years now , Hornby have only offered a couple of liveries each year on this low-rent ex-Lima 66.

All of a sudden, they've decided that this year there will be loads of livery options, mostly duplicating exactly the same liveries Hattons are doing this year. You couldn't be more blatant about it...

Richard Davies isn't a child, he's been in business long enough to know that selling off the back of your competitors' advertising promotion is a tactic as old as the hills. Their business will make money both from selling the Hornby to those still entertained by the 'Lima Livery Horse' style of operation, and from those who like the idea of a model to 'best current standard'. (And FWIW, I rather feel it's Bachmann getting squeezed with their previously unchallenged models of high profile classes soon to be superseded left , right and centre.)

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4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

The ends seem to have justified the means, however, with strong take up of the 2019 range, not least, inevitably, by Hattons and Rails. But, SK has, it seems to me, opened a Pandora's box by insisting that all's fair in love and model trains. To replace a state of relative openness and co-operation with one of open warfare might be thought a high risk strategy that may result in further duplication, waste and casualties. One of those casualties might be Hornby. Retailers need manufacturers less than manufacturers need retailers, when retailers can use a rival or go direct to a Chinese factory. And a still fragile Hornby has just declared open season on the two biggest retailers.   

 

Big retailers don't need manufacturers as much as they used to. But most retailers aren't in Hatton's and Rails' league. The number of retailers in a position to go direct to the factory is probably small enough to count on the fingers of one hand. And special commissions have always been a part of the retail scene; fulfilling them is a huge part of Dapol's business model. 

 

Even those retailers that can either go direct to the factory or dictate the spec of a commissioned model still rely on manufacturers for the majority of their stock. There's no way that Hatton's could create a range with the depth and coverage of Hornby (or even Bachmann, Dapol or Oxford)  in the near to medium-term future. The major manufacturers will be essential to the retailers for the foreseeable future.

 

Hornby, in particular, is a mainstay of most retailers because it's the name with the brand recognition. Seven of Hatton's current top 20 best-sellers are Hornby, including the top two. The rest are mostly Hatton's own brand, which is a distorted picture because, unlike Hornby, they're not readily available anywhere else. The only other manufacturer represented is Oxford Rail with the railgun. Hornby is the only true model railway brand (as opposed to toys, like Brio) represented in Amazon's top 100 model trains. The most searched-for model railway products on Google are Hornby.

 

None of that is going to change any time soon. Even the other manufacturers rely on Hornby to a considerable extent, as Hornby products are one of the most common gateways into the hobby for children and young people.

 

So neither Hatton's nor Rails are gong to stop selling Hornby products. They can't afford to. But Hornby can afford to upset them, if that's the price of their own survival. A more hard-nosed commercial approach from Hornby may rub some people up the wrong way. But, in the long run, a thriving Hornby benefits everyone involved in the hobby.

 

 

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Having taken a month or two break from modelling and RMweb last year, I wasn't aware of the Bachmann/Hattons situation which I assume is ongoing, nor the Rails/Hornby Terrier issue from last night. As manufacturers, I would assume that formal agreements for Distribution of their products would (or should) have had a clause prohibiting a Distributor from going into direct competition and setting up their own manufacturing opportunities. Equally so, the manufacturer would also have a commitment to ongoing supply of products unless there was a material breach of the agreement.

 

I can fully understand Hatton's position if they were starved of new product or saw substantial changes in the way the previous Hornby management dealt with their Distributors, but of course weren't party to any talks that may have preceded that decision.

 

Apologies for wandering a little off topic and being late to the party, but Rails and Hatton's wouldn't have taken that action lightly, knowing the possible outcomes.

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29 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 You mean you didn't get told off for 'stealing' the Class 92 from Hornby?   :jester: :jester:

 

As you know we play our cards very close to our chests and I didnt utter a word about the 92, despite it being well under way by Warley. Only hint I gave was in the interview with @AY Mod where I said our next loco 'would raise a few eyebrows'. I'm obviously far too subtle when it comes to hints :)

 

We now fully expect to see about 57 varieties of 92 and Railroad Deltic in the 2020 Hornby announcement :D 

 

Cheers!

 

Fran

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3 minutes ago, gordon s said:

Having taken a month or two break from modelling and RMweb last year, I wasn't aware of the Bachmann/Hattons situation

 

Don't feel bad, I haven't taken a break but was also unaware of the situation.

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Just now, MarkSG said:

 

Big retailers don't need manufacturers as much as they used to. But most retailers aren't in Hatton's and Rails' league. The number of retailers in a position to go direct to the factory is probably small enough to count on the fingers of one hand. And special commissions have always been a part of the retail scene; fulfilling them is a huge part of Dapol's business model. 

 

 

A fair point, which is why I say that the landscape Kohler is creating is not healthy.  By forcing the big retailers to respond, Hornby will take a hit and the smaller retailers are left squeezed, potentially. Pandora's Box.

 

You are right that nothing is likely to change decisively soon.  With that I would agree.  But with Hornby's position marginal, even in the short to medium term, biting the hands that feed them will doubtless have some consequences. 

 

Their reputation for quality will no doubt suffer, even while sales are good, over the new rushed new Terrier, and I fear that brand confidence will not be enhanced by such half-baked subterfuge. 

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12 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

PenrithBeacon, Except that the Terrier is supposedly completely new tooling 

I stand corrected, thank you! Notwithstanding that, I still think that competition is the essence of capitalism and that it is good for the consumer.

 

On further thinks I was impressed with SK but much less so with the blokes from Rails and Hattons. They both looked as though they had just finished a session on the allotment! SK, on the other hand, came across as an experienced manager who new what he was doing, while the other two blokes looked, quite apart from their sartorial elegance issues, as inexperienced big fish in a small pond. I think they are going to have to up their game.

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Forgive my ignorance but what are the improvements the new Terriers are likely to have over the current one?  Are we talking appearance/details/accuracy or mechanism?  Or both?

 

And how about the other various duplications?

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