BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Corbs]

Thinking about product duplication, there's been quite a lot of this going on recently. The ones I can think of are:

 

GWR King

DJM - Hornby

 

Adams Radial

Oxford - Hornby

 

Terrier

Rails - Hornby

 

Class 92

Accurascale - DJM

 

Class 71

DJM - Hornby

 

Class 66

Bachmann - Hornby - Hattons

 

GWR 0-6-0ST

DJM - Heljan

 

At first I had thought that it seemed riskier for the smaller brands to make a new version of a loco that existed in older tooling, but looking at the list it seems equally harsh for models not previously seen in 00 RTR?

It also makes me feel very sad for DJM who keep having this happen to them.

 

[Butler Henderson]

1 hour ago, MarkSG said:

 

It does, about 24 seconds in.

 

Bear in mind that this is a very tightly edited result of what we saw being filmed. Individual shots in adverts can be as short as a second or so - almost a "blink and you'll miss it" scenario.

Think I must have blinked

[Pre Grouping fan]

34 minutes ago, Corbs said:

Thinking about product duplication, there's been quite a lot of this going on recently. The ones I can think of are:

 

GWR King

DJM - Hornby

 

Adams Radial

Oxford - Hornby

 

Terrier

Rails - Hornby

 

Class 92

Accurascale - DJM

 

Class 71

DJM - Hornby

 

Class 66

Bachmann - Hornby - Hattons

 

GWR 0-6-0ST

DJM - Heljan

 

At first I had thought that it seemed riskier for the smaller brands to make a new version of a loco that existed in older tooling, but looking at the list it seems equally harsh for models not previously seen in 00 RTR?

It also makes me feel very sad for DJM who keep having this happen to them.

 

Although its a good point, Afaik the DJM 00 king is dead. Probably killed off by Hornby's model

And

Accurascale had to make the 92 if they were to do the Mk5's in Caley Sleeper livery to get the license which if they didnt there wouldnt be any loco to run the sleeper coaches with.

[Georgeconna]

18 hours ago, 88D said:

I thought Hornbywere very remiss on this. Their stand was low profile, literally, and lacked impact.  Rails banners showing outwards, not inwards? Straight forward advertising so that people from all over the show could see them. Rails outdid Hornby in this mini battle.

 

Well Next year Hornby can take on a Aerial Battle with other hanging banners in 'thier' Airspace and bring their own handling Banners to wipe out the Oppostions hanging behind thier stand. I wonder what Rails chap would of said to that if that what Hornby countered rails hanging banners last year with their own hanging banners? Get the Cameras ready!

 

[Captain Kernow]

I was about to ask a genuine question - 'what is AR?' (ie. what do these letters stand for?).

 

Then I saw in a subsequent post that it seems to stand for something called 'Augmented Reality'.

 

But I still have no idea what 'AR' is or how it could be applied to model railways.

 

How can you 'augment' reality?

 

(I know about VR and I see why some might be interested).

 

[GeoffAlan]

23 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

Personally I don't think crowd funding can do more than fill in a few gaps at the top end of the market; heck imagine being a newcomer to the hobby and wanting to build up a layout with say 10 locos, 20 coaches, 50 wagons. Having to do that via crowd funding would probably take decades.

It all depends on the crowd funder. Revolution have several projects under their belts. DJM fewer. N gauge Society have several under their belts, which required a deposit and full payment on delivery. None of the successful ones took 8 yrs!

[Corbs]

It's complicated, but the general idea is that rather than Virtual Reality, where the world you look around at is completely computer-generated, what AR does is show you what is really there and 'augments' it with computer generated elements.

 

For example, the recent game Pokemon Go was played by holding up the player's smartphone to look around. The game projected computer-generated animals on to the real world when seen on the phone's screen. The CG animals would appear to sit on the ground or walk around.

 

Imagine if you could stand on the platform of London Paddington, hold your phone up and look around, and the phone showed you what the station would have looked like in steam days, allowing you to walk around the environment, whilst in real time it tracked on CGI people, steam locos, kiosks, pigeons, smoke effects etc.

 

This AR app is filming people in a real world environment and playing it back to them live, with Dinosaurs projected on

12 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I was about to ask a genuine question - 'what is AR?' (ie. what do these letters stand for?).

 

Then I saw in a subsequent post that it seems to stand for something called 'Augmented Reality'.

 

But I still have no idea what 'AR' is or how it could be applied to model railways.

 

How can you 'augment' reality?

 

(I know about VR and I see why some might be interested).

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Corbs

[MarkSG]

13 minutes ago, Georgeconna said:

 

Well Next year Hornby can take on a Aerial Battle with other hanging banners in 'thier' Airspace and bring their own handling Banners to wipe out the Oppostions hanging behind thier stand. I wonder what Rails chap would of said to that if that what Hornby countered rails hanging banners last year with their own hanging banners? Get the Cameras ready!

 

 

Indeed, I'm already looking forward to the Battle of the Banners at this year's Warley. Of course, Rails of Sheffield (in Sheffield) will be anticipating countermeasures by Hornby, and will no doubt be steeling themselves in readiness. Neither will want to let go of the prime spot, it will be like a terrier with a bone. But will the rival companies be so intent on outmanoeuvring each other in this particular dogfight that they're both vulnerable to a tactical incursion by Hatton's or Bachmann? Or could they all be gunned down by Oxford Rail?

 

Maybe we could arrange for someone to film it using a VR controlled drone. It will be much better using a mobile viewpoint in the air, fixed cameras on the ground just won't do in this modern age.

[Bilbo]

Interestingly I can only find one or two references on here to Corgi. Is there any significance in the fact that Corgi and Oxford Diecast operate in the same market and Lyndon Davies has a vested interest in both? Is something going on there?.The other point in this scenario is that Lyndon was very much part of the Corgi operation in Swansea before it disappeared from the scene bought out by one of the (then) big toy conglomerates. I know he was not allowed to go back into the market for number of years but he kept some part of the operation here in South Wales and I presume some of the design work is still done here. Cue Corgi/Oxford merger perhaps?

[NIK]

18 minutes ago, Captain Kernow said:

I was about to ask a genuine question - 'what is AR?' (ie. what do these letters stand for?).

 

Then I saw in a subsequent post that it seems to stand for something called 'Augmented Reality'.

 

But I still have no idea what 'AR' is or how it could be applied to model railways.

 

How can you 'augment' reality?

 

(I know about VR and I see why some might be interested).

 

Hi,

 

Here is a theoretical model railway example - extra information is superimposed on the view of a mobile phone - in this case the DCC addresses of each loco in a fiddle yard (might be able to get the loco to be selected for driving by touching on the DCC address).

 

Regards

 

Nick

Edited March 15, 2019 by NIK
MISSED A BRACKET

[Markwj]

Just received an email to say the Hornby class 66 are due next week. I think the hattons ones were originally due in March- spoiler on Hornby's part definitely!

[Bilbo]

Rails are having them in any day soon and they are also advertising the Hornby Terriers .

[truffy]

11 minutes ago, Bilbo said:

they are also advertising the Hornby Terriers .

 

In a crusty white bread roll with English mustard. It’s the best way to enjoy corned beef IMO

Edited March 15, 2019 by truffy

[The Johnster]

6 hours ago, PMP said:

 

 

That's nothing, just imagine if somebody had mentioned Bachmanns 94xx

Chwarae teg y fi!*

 

Now, we are talking about here is a very long running soap opera, but one which gets cancelled every so often leaving the plot hanging so nobody's quite sure what's happening...

 

*Fair play to you, PMP, in Welsh!

 

 

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

Thinking about product duplication, there's been quite a lot of this going on recently. The ones I can think of are:

 

GWR King

DJM - Hornby

 

Adams Radial

Oxford - Hornby

 

Terrier

Rails - Hornby

 

Class 92

Accurascale - DJM

 

Class 71

DJM - Hornby

 

Class 66

Bachmann - Hornby - Hattons

 

GWR 0-6-0ST

DJM - Heljan

 

At first I had thought that it seemed riskier for the smaller brands to make a new version of a loco that existed in older tooling, but looking at the list it seems equally harsh for models not previously seen in 00 RTR?

It also makes me feel very sad for DJM who keep having this happen to them.

 

And Mk1 coaches, nowadays H v B, but ever since Triang and Hornby Dublo went head to head with them; Kitmaster were already in the game and setting the standard.  Interim dabblers over the years have been Trix, Lima, and Mainline, but I cannot recall at time since about 1958 when there was not duplication of mk1s in the UK 00 market.  More coach duplication with Triang Hornby versus Airfix regarding Staniers.

 

There has proved to be room even in the relatively restricted British market for some duplication; profit margins suffer but often the models remain in production so cannot be making disastrous losses.  My opinion (it is no more than that and I cannot even claim it to be 'informed') is that Rails will make money out of their Terrier and so will Hornby.  Similarly, Hattons will make money out of their 66 and so will Hornby, repeat for Hatton's 14xx and Dapol's large prairie.  But nobody will make as much as they wanted to out of these models.

 

Duplication is inevitable in world where manufacturers play cards close to their chests and are influenced by market research and wishlists.  They ask us what we want, we tell them, and it's hardly surprising that some of them come to similar conclusions.  A phone call from SK to Rails of Sheffield (I believe this establishment may be in Sheffield) would be getting towards collaboration, which the monopolies commission would be rightly concerned about, something that seems to have been forgotten about while the children threw their toys out of the pram at each other.

 

Duplication is by and large undesirable, but I would appreciate somebody having a go at some of the outdated dogs in Hornby's range, such as the 2721.  If the Terrier is corned beef, the 2721 is pound shop spam.  Bachmann have a suitable mechanism, but I'd like it in the next 20 years, please...  

 

But this is shameless wishlisting on my part and there is very little chance of it happening!

[Coach bogie]

19 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think the Class 66 is very different to the Terrier situation. The Hornby Railroad 66 is a completely different product than the Hattons model and personally I don't see why Hornby should be criticised for offering a cheaper, lower spec model which is still a good likeness of a 66 (if basic and lacking the various version specific adjustments and fine detail) for those who either don't want or can't afford the more expensive more detailed Hattons model. 

 Totally agree. two very different market segments. For me, I would buy the high spec Hattons one. Would I buy the same for my clumsy teenage son who drops everything he picks up? No chance. He can have the ex Lima from Hornby, and he will have lots of fun with it, no doubt changing it, repainting parts when I am not looking etc.

 

Two very different markets for the 66.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[RedgateModels]

1 minute ago, Coach bogie said:

 Totally agree. two very different market segments. For me, I would buy the high spec Hattons one. Would I buy the same for my clumsy teenage son who drops everything he picks up? No chance. He can have the ex Lima from Hornby, and he will have lots of fun with it, no doubt changing it, repainting parts when I am not looking etc.

 

Two very different markets for the 66.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Yep, for the same reason my 13 year old is allowed to buy Lima locos but not high end Hornby

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, Corbs said:

Thinking about product duplication, there's been quite a lot of this going on recently. The ones I can think of are:

 

GWR King

DJM - Hornby

Actually Hattons (commissioned thro' DJM). and well behind the already underway Hornby product about which there was some public knowledge before the Hattons version was announced

 

Adams Radial

Oxford - Hornby

 

Terrier

Rails - Hornby

 

Class 92

Accurascale - DJM

Plus of course Hornby's already there

 

Class 71

DJM - Hornby

 

Class 66

Bachmann - Hornby - Hattons

 

GWR 0-6-0ST

DJM - Heljan

Actually Kernow commissioned thro' DJM

 

You omitted the J94

Hornby - DJM

 

At first I had thought that it seemed riskier for the smaller brands to make a new version of a loco that existed in older tooling, but looking at the list it seems equally harsh for models not previously seen in 00 RTR?

It also makes me feel very sad for DJM who keep having this happen to them.

 

Considering what they have actually got to production DJM have duplicated an existing Hornby model once,  got an almost simultaneous release of a new Hornby model once, while they have lost one the Q6, because Hornby were well ahead when they went public.

 

 

You can of course go further back and list a couple of Hornby/Bachmann duplications as near simultaneous releases plus Hornby's duplication last year of the somewhat dated Bachmann 'Lord Nelson' (so it's alright for them to do it but not Rails?).   And there was also the DJM Q6 project which was seen off by Hornby's Q6 which was already well along the development path before the DJM one got anywhere.  

 

Regrettably duplication is not new although I suspect it might become more prevalent as 'wishlist snatching' takes over from original ideas on the part of manufacturers.  But equally comanies with larger ranges - such as Hornby and Bachmann - are in the awkward position where they can't continuously update everything so they are bound to see smaller concerns with greater flexibility 'picking off' what they see as low hanging fruit ready to be supplanted by a model to more modern or better detailed standards.  At the moment in diesel land the Class 47 is arguably one open goal and the Class 37 is arguably another and those who have the wherewithal to invest in models like that might well pitch in and have a go.

 

Whatever happens it seems nowadays that duplication is an increasing risk because nobody (with the probable exception of the NRM) 'owns' any particular prototype when it comes to making a model of it. 

[dibber25]

.....and the NRM's claimed right to the Class 71 failed to prevent duplication anyway. (CJL)

[Corbs]

Yes, I had thought about the J94 (but Hornby haven't re-tooled theirs to compete) but completely forgot about the Q6. 

 

Do you think this spate of competitiveness will result in Hattons/Rails/DJM and its commissioners playing their cards closer to their chests for longer? The Barclay was one of Hatton's first locos but I don't remember it taking a massive amount of time from announcement to completion.

 

Hopefully Rails/Bachmann's 812 is successful in the wake of Terriergate.

[Pteremy]

Prohibiting duplication would also inhibit new entrants into the market. Hornby may be grumpy but their response to Hatton's/Rails - in the sense of manufacturing response - illustrates the benefits of differentiated competition. They are having to up their game, either in terms of new spec or a new price point for old spec. 

[Deltic]

On 13/03/2019 at 23:16, RJS1977 said:

 

Strictly speaking though it hasn't always been a part of their range, as it was originally introduced by Dapol, who are making the Rails version!

 

Personally I think Hornby would have been better relegating their existing Terrier to Railroad and letting Rails get on with theirs rather than wasting money on new tooling. 

Think you may have missed the comment - the Terrier was actually almost complete when Simon left.  It was in that case in their plans to come out.  In fact one version has already landed in shops.  AS to Dapol I think it was actually started by GMR (Airfix) - so nice link Hornby Hobbies all those years ago.

[Tomathee]

1 hour ago, Bilbo said:

Rails are having them in any day soon and they are also advertising the Hornby Terriers .

I had an email from rails whilst catching up with the thread advertising the Hornby terriers. Noticed the product description is a link to their own pedigree terriers....

 

Enjoyable show, hopefully not too many instances of duplication to come with all the other things they could create or update instead.

[colin smith]

I'd have thought one use of VR would be to model the parts  of "your railway" you don't have the physical space for in 3D. 

 

Some model railways are so large or complex they require a team of operators and in US model railroading I've noticed that operators are often given specific tasks relating to real-world railroad practice. Most people in the UK can't build those type of models because we lack the space, but in VR we can. You could even imagine a model railway/railroad that is a combination of 3D modelling and VR operated by a team who are only communicating via the web. 

 

It would be a VR version of modular railway modelling but without the need to physically join components together.

[Deltic]

3 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

I watched the second part.  I found it not so much James May as the Simon Kohler Show.  He who Hornby decreed they  could do without then thought better of it possibly at very significant cost.  Yes May introduced and interjected during the show.  But the message I got was that Hornby (and perhaps their bankers) deeply regretted the move to Sandwich, were keen to return home and salvage the business if possible despite mounting losses.  

 

All's fair in love and war apparently and there was certainly no love lost between Kohler and the respective managers of Hattons and Rails when it came to apparent rights to certain models.  Certain chapters of history seemed overlooked.  Hornby's Margate premises were, when filmed, as empty as their bank account.  Quite what it must cost in terms of staff relocation (twice) or loss and recruitment (twice) when businesses make such a move is for the accountants to know but possibly for the consumer to pay for.

 

 

From a pure finance side there will be costs involved, but a certain % can be offset against Tax liabilities.  Hornby Hobbies will not be the first or last to access such accounting strings. Being there this year there was a very positive buzz from the Hornby people. Makes sense with their Heritage Centre on the same site + 1:1 locomotives inside their old warehouse.  They have also forged links (1:1 Collection), so I think it was a sensisble move - may also provide employment again in the Margate area.