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BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

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1 hour ago, woodenhead said:

@Captain Kernow The whole world or AR/VR and people being shown saying things they haven't said (and worse when AR is inserted into Adult videos) - it is becoming hard to know what is a truth and what is a lie.

[snip]

I too fear for the future once people simply cannot tell the difference.

I've been detecting this effect in this very thread already - in the unwillingness to accept Simon Kohler's account of the Terrier project timeline, for instance.

 

The Nim.

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49 minutes ago, gb901 said:

Found an 1971 airfix construction kit catalogue introducing the new 1/24th superkit of the spitfire - a snip at only £1.99 or 39/10d! Bet the new hellcat is slightly more expensive today?

 

Love those modern cars.

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43 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

Depends what calculation method you want to use, but that's between 25 quid and 65 quid in today's money, so the Hellcat looks relatively expensive.

 

A couple of years ago I picked up an Airfix 1/24 Spitfire and the Bf109E, both were well under 30 quid in clearance offers. They make impressive kits but both show their age, fit and finish was a little rough and detail more basic than you might expect for the scale. If the F6F is like the Typhoon they did in 1/24 then it'll be in a different world and compared to other large scale high detail kits it looks well priced.

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I could imagine a future world where layouts are displayed behind a glass screen, on to which the AR images are shown, so that you get the good modelling of the layout itself, together with walking small people, seagulls pinching their chips etc.

 

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48 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

 

Love those modern cars.

I made a lot of them. Some I fitted a Riko slot car chassis under them. The Zodiac made a nice Banger racer.

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On the topic of 66s; I accept that the model quality/detail level/price point are different between Hattons and Hornby, but to suggest that Hornby's re-introduction has no impact on Hattons' sales is a little simplistic I think.

 

If I wanted a 66 in let's say Frazzledazzle livery, I might have been prepared to save up for one of the Hattons ones since this is the only one available and as everyone knows the Frazzledazzle livery is so difficult to replicate that even the transfer guys steer clear*.  Now with Hornby at about half the price, I don't need to save up so much.  So I do think that a portion of Hattons' market has been eroded.  I could not give you a percentage but any loss will be hard.   I would not be surprised if some of the less common livery versions have been hit by well into double figure percentage losses for Hattons.

 

* and even more difficult for those who do not have the knowledge/confidence/time to have a go themselves.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I think where AR/VR might have great potential is in "living" backscenes, e.g. moving road traffic, pedestrians and livestock, clouds that move, shadows changing as the day passes.

 

Just needs an affordable way to scale up those dinky phone screens that don't break if you sit on them....

 

John

 

Already done - see my profile picture!

 

(If any clubs within say two hours of Reading want a layout with an animated backscene for their show, drop me a message!)

Edited by RJS1977
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37 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

On the topic of 66s; I accept that the model quality/detail level/price point are different between Hattons and Hornby, but to suggest that Hornby's re-introduction has no impact on Hattons' sales is a little simplistic I think.

 

If I wanted a 66 in let's say Frazzledazzle livery, I might have been prepared to save up for one of the Hattons ones since this is the only one available and as everyone knows the Frazzledazzle livery is so difficult to replicate that even the transfer guys steer clear*.  Now with Hornby at about half the price, I don't need to save up so much.  So I do think that a portion of Hattons' market has been eroded.  I could not give you a percentage but any loss will be hard.   I would not be surprised if some of the less common livery versions have been hit by well into double figure percentage losses for Hattons.

 

* and even more difficult for those who do not have the knowledge/confidence/time to have a go themselves.

 

 

Quoting "celebrity" numbers/liveries:

If folks are going to buy a loco in a particular livery on a price issue, then Bachmann have more to lose as Hornby are doing 66783 Flying Dustman, 66789 BR large logo and 66413 G&W orange. Bachmann have all three in their 2019 catalogue, Hattons only have two (783/789).

 

If folks are wanting a particular livery and prepared to spend on the higher spec, then I'm pretty sure Hattons will win the sales of 66783 and 66789 against Bachmann. 

 

I'll bet the gang at Barwell were using words worse than "spiteful" after they learned of Hornby's plans.

 

Cheers,

Mick

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I liked it when Simon showed Hattons the Hornby 66 and Rails Of Sheffiels the Hornby Terrier ,both of there faces where a picture.

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2 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

If I wanted a 66 in let's say Frazzledazzle livery, I might have been prepared to save up for one of the Hattons ones since this is the only one available and as everyone knows the Frazzledazzle livery is so difficult to replicate that even the transfer guys steer clear*.  Now with Hornby at about half the price, I don't need to save up so much.  So I do think that a portion of Hattons' market has been eroded.  I could not give you a percentage but any loss will be hard.   I would not be surprised if some of the less common livery versions have been hit by well into double figure percentage losses for Hattons.

 

 

 

The more common liveries have been done before. Anyone wanting it cheap will find one somewhere. So any new additions in the cheap end will have little influence on Hattons. Then we have the liveries not covered before. There will be people who cannot afford the Hattons one anyway but will buy the Hornby one, so No impact on Hattons sales. Then you have those wanting the best 66 possible, they are hardly going to buy Hornby's old tooling model. You are left with just the small section which was after the never done before livery and consider the old tooling adequate off their needs. There will be an impact there for sure but not something to worry about.

You then have a lot of people like me who will find the 66 too recent for their layouts. 

The real nightmare must therefore be with most other model shops. What with Hattons, Hornby and (eventually) Bachmann producing so many variants, it is no longer a question of how many to stock of each but rather which ones? Most model shops are not  going to sit on 30 different versions of the same class in multiple colours from 3 makes!

in fact sitting on 9 different versions just from Hornby is likely to end up being money tied up.

A strategy that is somewhat rushed. The world is in constant evolution and changes moving from one crisis to the next. For any business to survive it needs to flexible enough to meet the needs of customers. Traditional telephone companies now sell television Chanel's as a major part of their DSL packages and my lease line serves more for TV and internet these days than use as a telephone.

Innovation is a key for sure, but the right innovations require close interactions with customers finding and testing ideas. The multiple 66s is an idea clearly rushed, untested on customers with the sole objective of trying to dissuade new players from entering the market - clearly and obviously it will fail! The world has moved on and returning to the past is impossible.

Why was the early 2000s a success? Because Hornby finally abandoned its old way of producing trains with tender drive locos produced from tooling that had little changed in 20 years and asked people and then produced all new models with a spec that people wanted. They need to repeat the exercise again to find out where the market is now.

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3 minutes ago, JSpencer said:

 

 

The more common liveries have been done before. Anyone wanting it cheap will find one somewhere. So any new additions in the cheap end will have little influence on Hattons. Then we have the liveries not covered before. There will be people who cannot afford the Hattons one anyway but will buy the Hornby one, so No impact on Hattons sales. Then you have those wanting the best 66 possible, they are hardly going to buy Hornby's old tooling model. You are left with just the small section which was after the never done before livery and consider the old tooling adequate off their needs. There will be an impact there for sure but not something to worry about.

You then have a lot of people like me who will find the 66 too recent for their layouts. 

The real nightmare must therefore be with most other model shops. What with Hattons, Hornby and (eventually) Bachmann producing so many variants, it is no longer a question of how many to stock of each but rather which ones? Most model shops are not  going to sit on 30 different versions of the same class in multiple colours from 3 makes!

in fact sitting on 9 different versions just from Hornby is likely to end up being money tied up.

A strategy that is somewhat rushed. The world is in constant evolution and changes moving from one crisis to the next. For any business to survive it needs to flexible enough to meet the needs of customers. Traditional telephone companies now sell television Chanel's as a major part of their DSL packages and my lease line serves more for TV and internet these days than use as a telephone.

Innovation is a key for sure, but the right innovations require close interactions with customers finding and testing ideas. The multiple 66s is an idea clearly rushed, untested on customers with the sole objective of trying to dissuade new players from entering the market - clearly and obviously it will fail! The world has moved on and returning to the past is impossible.

Why was the early 2000s a success? Because Hornby finally abandoned its old way of producing trains with tender drive locos produced from tooling that had little changed in 20 years and asked people and then produced all new models with a spec that people wanted. They need to repeat the exercise again to find out where the market is now.

 

 

 

The past 24 months or so has seen a preponderance of new/celebrity liveries on Class 66s - especially amongst the GBRf fleet. Who can blame the manufacturers for falling over themselves to produce them as that's where a lot of modelling tokens are spent?

 

There is one major difference between historical and current day models that seems to have been overlooked - there are no new (or very, very few) liveries to be covered when it comes to steam era models. I can't really comment on the multiple livery releases of the Terrier as it's too early for my needs..........

 

At least Hattons made the effort not to produce any other name/livery combinations that had previously been produced by Lima, Bachmann or Hornby - it's just unlucky timing for them with the likes of 66783/789 etc. and the triplication of them by Bachmann and Hornby.

 

As for Hornby repeating the 2000s exercise  - not easily done as most the "popular" prototypes are already produced to a high standard. I would love to know what locos they could upgrade from tender drive.

Principally as a current scene diesel modeller, luckily I pretty much lack for nothing on the loco front. (Awaits howls of derision about the Bachmann 37............ other diesels are available)

Multiple units however, are a different matter, but I don't think they fit into Hornby's psyche . The 4-VEP was a half-hearted attempt and they haven't made any effort to update the 156 or 142 or 101, leaving them to others. The 2-BIL, although not in my modelling period, had mixed reviews with it's design clever approach. 

 

 

I'm buying my first Hattons 66 as I particularly like the livery on 66789 and when it was announced, the Bachmann or Hornby version wasn't on the scene. Not that I would purchase a Hornby 66 - sorry SK! Yes, I am capable of repainting a Bachmann 66 to a reasonable standard, but why would I do so, when I can obtain a factory finish for less than the time, effort and decals that it would cost me (I have limited spare time at the moment, so cost and prioritisation of it it is a factor)

 

IMO - Bachmann will be the biggest losers in the battle of the 66s.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

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11 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

 

Thank you, I can see the reasoning in this, (assuming one didn't have a handy paper list with the necessary DCC information already shown on it).

 

I don't know what the coloured geometric shapes along the edge of the baseboard are supposed to signify, though.

 

 

Hi,

 

The coloured geometric shapes are my idea of how to easily identify what view the phone has of the layout. They would be physically attached to the layout. The location, colour, shape and size would allow the AR software to easily work out where the phone was pointing at from what distance in order to locate information to be superimposed on the screen. My example was aimed at making things quicker on a club exhibition layout where people just bring along locos and multiple units.

 

Regards

 

Nick

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If Hornby are particularly Machiavellian then they probably realise that Hattons are in a weak position to really do much against Hornby. They have lost their relationship with Bachmann, if they were to lose it with Hornby too then they would be a model train shop without the two principal British outline model train companies. Regardless of their own plans there is no way that they can fill the gap for their retail operations if they ended up losing both Bachmann and Hornby and I think they'd hemorrhage business to competitors. 

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Regarding various comments above..

 

surely the difference between VR and imagination, is that VR provides a controlled, 

predetermined content controlled by others? 

 

Regarding something real as false, and believing false things to be true are surely directly related, if not aspects of the same thing? 

 

A propos BBC production editing, I spent a very satisfying hour yesterday listening to Sir Robin Knox-Johnston’s account of his solo circumnavigation. I can’t imagine any other network producing such an absorbing hours’ listening centred on such a remarkable character and for those with iplayer, I strongly recommend it.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, rockershovel said:

 

 

Regarding something real as false, and believing false things to be true are surely directly related, if not aspects of the same thing? 

 

 

 

 

 

I like bananas.

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8 hours ago, newbryford said:

 

 

 

The past 24 months or so has seen a preponderance of new/celebrity liveries on Class 66s - especially amongst the GBRf fleet. Who can blame the manufacturers for falling over themselves to produce them as that's where a lot of modelling tokens are spent?

 

There is one major difference between historical and current day models that seems to have been overlooked - there are no new (or very, very few) liveries to be covered when it comes to steam era models. I can't really comment on the multiple livery releases of the Terrier as it's too early for my needs..........

 

At least Hattons made the effort not to produce any other name/livery combinations that had previously been produced by Lima, Bachmann or Hornby - it's just unlucky timing for them with the likes of 66783/789 etc. and the triplication of them by Bachmann and Hornby.

 

As for Hornby repeating the 2000s exercise  - not easily done as most the "popular" prototypes are already produced to a high standard. I would love to know what locos they could upgrade from tender drive.

Principally as a current scene diesel modeller, luckily I pretty much lack for nothing on the loco front. (Awaits howls of derision about the Bachmann 37............ other diesels are available)

Multiple units however, are a different matter, but I don't think they fit into Hornby's psyche . The 4-VEP was a half-hearted attempt and they haven't made any effort to update the 156 or 142 or 101, leaving them to others. The 2-BIL, although not in my modelling period, had mixed reviews with it's design clever approach. 

 

 

I'm buying my first Hattons 66 as I particularly like the livery on 66789 and when it was announced, the Bachmann or Hornby version wasn't on the scene. Not that I would purchase a Hornby 66 - sorry SK! Yes, I am capable of repainting a Bachmann 66 to a reasonable standard, but why would I do so, when I can obtain a factory finish for less than the time, effort and decals that it would cost me (I have limited spare time at the moment, so cost and prioritisation of it it is a factor)

 

IMO - Bachmann will be the biggest losers in the battle of the 66s.

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

 

Just for clarity, Repeating the 2000 exercise is not to replace tender drives nor any other loco. It is to find out what the market wants now. It is not a simple exercise of which loco but rather complex exercise to determine the spec, make proposals etc. Telephone companies no longer provide just lease lines, they branched in selling TV as well. Maybe Hornby could look at VR or follow the Accurscale route of extreme high fidelity or something else. Or it can be simple questions on quality vs price. Demonstrating what end of the scale means.

If you don,t do this, you end up producing things no one wants.

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2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

(Snip) Regardless of their own plans there is no way that they can fill the gap for their retail operations if they ended up losing both Bachmann and Hornby and I think they'd hemorrhage business to competitors. 

 

Not necessarily, they’d still have the option of buying via a wholesaler. No where near as profitable, but it would continue the supply chain, and the wholesale outfit would do very nicely. And then possibly the wholesalers become another competitor if they commissioned products!

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Regardless of their own plans there is no way that they can fill the gap for their retail operations if they ended up losing both Bachmann and Hornby and I think they'd hemorrhage business to competitors. 

 

Edited by Roddy Angus
Sorry, I misunderstood the quote.

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16 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

Yes, I do understand where you are coming from, but whatever happened to the concept of imagination?

 

We may be looking at AR in that way because we're trying to fit into what we already know- which we all do with new technology e.g. horseless carriage, measuring engine output in terms of horses. motion pictures and so on.

Imagination is what will allow us to do new things with it that we'd not already thought of.

 

I was definitely falling into that trap by thinking in terms of walking passengers,  etc. augmenting what you are seeing rather than adding different informatino. You could for example look at a wagon in the yard and see its waybill and destination etc. something a shunter in real life would have seen posted on the wagon but modellers have to do separately (viz all those waybill boxes by the side of American layouts) You might point at the signalbox and see a live display of the block instruments. An exhibition  visitor might look at a loco and see the history of that particilar loco in reality (A bit like second screening when you see something in a TV programme and Google it on your tablet)  I'm sure you can think of other possibilities.

The great thing about this is that once the base technology had developed small firms and individuals could produce specialist applications rather as people do now with add on sound chips. What this would do for Hornby isn't clear but they'd be daft not to keep their eyes open.

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15 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

And look how many continental manufacturers have gone bust or finished up in deep financial dodo.

Five of them ended up as part of Hornby.:)

With Arnold they have a TT (1:120) range as well.

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4 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Five of them ended up as part of Hornby.https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_smile.png

With Arnold they have a TT (1:120) range as well.

And look what happened to Hornby after it had bought them (not that the money spent on those companies necessarily caused Hornby to slip into losses, but ...)

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Email from Hornby just arrived, announcing new Class 66 and more Terriers available now, "As seen on BBC 4".

 

Hmmmmm...

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I feel sorry for the young lady who joined the design team. By now her social media would be set to private so non of us sad old gits can bother her:prankster:

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28 minutes ago, Hroth said:

Email from Hornby just arrived, announcing new Class 66 and more Terriers available now, "As seen on BBC 4".

 

Hmmmmm…

 

Hmm indeed.Also read the embarrassing blooper....."Our Class 66 coaches caused quite a stir":wub:.Bet they did!!

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Posted (edited)

I'm don't think VR/AR will take off.


I can see the draw with live steam and it's a shame no other company has looked into developing this - even for diesels.   More so, companies not looking at making opening doors on multiple units, or other such things. Yes, prices will rise, but hey, I bet 20 years ago nobody thought people would buy sound locos!

 

But VR/AR? 

 

May as well not bother putting anything but track down then... if I can just model it all on a computer and play using goggles, right?

 

Samsung tried with VR but the uptake has been very slow. It was about 4 years ago I first tried the Samsung goggles with a phone and a rollercoaster. Haven't heard anything about it since.

 

Same with 3D. Notice how it's not a main selling point of TVs these days - people have decided it's not worth it. It's all about 4K, 8K - which is a waste in itself as there are still a good number of channels that aren't HD yet.

Myself though, I like to model.

 

I like ballasting, making trees, the landscape, putting together a scene or a station. That's what this hobby is about no?

Edited by Sir TophamHatt
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