BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Jol Wilkinson]

1 hour ago, ruggedpeak said:

Surely this "spiteful" action by Hornby would mean Hattons refuse to stock them on principle!! Indeed they should stop selling any Hornby at all. That'll learn 'em, like it has learnt Bachmann !!

 

The problem for Hattons is SK is a grizzled PR and sales pro. The head honchos at big retailers aren't and it was quite a nice little TV scene that SK put together that Hattons fell right into. Rails played it much better.

 

From a sale perspective it appears that perhaps the rush to provide the most super duper mega detailed locos and rolling stock has opened up a huge opportunity for Hornby to exploit as no one else is turning out cheap low detail items for the mass market that has been created by rapid growth in interest after the GMRC being on TV. Hattons, Bachmann, and others are metaphorically kicking seven bells out of each other at the top end whilst Hornby creams off the lower value but presumably profitable sales using old tooling. What are dads and kids who are newly into models going to buy when faced with 3 versions of a fancy liveried 66? The detailed and fragile Hattons or Bachmann model for £150+ or the very similar to the untrained eye £75 Hornby model, and a load of a wagons.

 

All is fair in love and war. And the model railway business.

 It rather depends on whether you see Hornby's or Hatton's brand as "bigger". If Hornby, then people will look elsewhere to buy the products if Hattons cease stocking them. Hattons have a large retail/online sales business. Can they afford to lose another high volume supplier and keep the level of turnover and profit needed to sustain their company?

 

Have Bachmann lost out much? There are plenty of other internet retailers who are probably enjoying the opportunity of Hatton's being unable to supply Bachmann.

[The Stationmaster]

36 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 It rather depends on whether you see Hornby's or Hatton's brand as "bigger". If Hornby, then people will look elsewhere to buy the products if Hattons cease stocking them. Hattons have a large retail/online sales business. Can they afford to lose another high volume supplier and keep the level of turnover and profit needed to sustain their company?

 

Have Bachmann lost out much? There are plenty of other internet retailers who are probably enjoying the opportunity of Hatton's being unable to supply Bachmann.

Bachmann buyers have simply gone elsewhere according to what I have been hearing from other retailers,  who now happen to have bigger smiles on their faces.  Simple really - if you want to buy Bachmann you go to who sells it.  

 

And as far as I'm concerned exactly the same goes for buying Hornby - my WR non-gangwayed coaches are coming from my 'local' model railway purveyor who is a mere 1 hour drive from home (and who also sells lots of useful modelling material including kits).   I'd no more think of buying Hornby from Hattons than I would of flying to the moon.  However I suspect it's not a matter so much of Hattons ceasing to stock Hornby products but rather one of Hornby ceasing to supply Hattons - and somehow I don;'t think they are currently in a position to do that to one of their major customers.

[friscopete]

13 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

It's only an F-Type.

Ten a penny round here.  

 

 

.

old bangers round here

[Pacific231G]

2 hours ago, ruggedpeak said:

 

From a sale perspective it appears that perhaps the rush to provide the most super duper mega detailed locos and rolling stock has opened up a huge opportunity for Hornby to exploit as no one else is turning out cheap low detail items for the mass market that has been created by rapid growth in interest after the GMRC being on TV. Hattons, Bachmann, and others are metaphorically kicking seven bells out of each other at the top end whilst Hornby creams off the lower value but presumably profitable sales using old tooling. What are dads and kids who are newly into models going to buy when faced with 3 versions of a fancy liveried 66? The detailed and fragile Hattons or Bachmann model for £150+ or the very similar to the untrained eye £75 Hornby model, and a load of a wagons.

 

All is fair in love and war. And the model railway business.

Apart from buying stuff  (mostly not British) my personal experience of the Toy and Hobby industry came from producing a number of videos for the BTHA in the late 1990s.  With one notable exception ( it wasn't model trains) I didn't form an impression of a cut-throat industry. There was rivalry sure but no sense of wanting to  finish off the competitors, more one of regret for those that had failed, and there did seem to be much mutual respect. Overall it seemed a pretty friendly industry with a high level of loyalty to its own staff and I filmed a fair number of the principals in their own homes.  That was a couple of decades ago but the Hornby programmes did nothing to dispel that impression and the reactions of Hattons and Rails of Sheffield (....in Sheffield) seemed more annoyance than real anger.

 

I think you're absolutely right about the need for a lower cost "basic" range, accurate and realistic enough to be models fit for a model railway not toys for a train set but not superdetailed showcase models. I don't think model trains will ever be cheap but affordable is entirely possible. I think that range also needs to be balanced rather than made up of "celebrity" locos. perhaps more Black Five than Mallard. There obviously is a market for buying super-detailed models, more I suspect for static collections or to run around a setrack loop than for operation on actual model railways but I can't help thinking that is too much of an older generation market that will decline rapidly with the boomer generation.

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

Those (I think), Hawkins Bazaar, Toyland/Toymaster, department stores (Fenwicks and Beales around here) and the late Modelezone took Hornby on a concession basis. After Hornby killed off the concessions (under the old regime) it's not surprising they aren't falling over themselves to restock.

Ian Allan in Birmingham (and I assume the other branches also, when they totalled 4!) used to sell plenty of Hornby products.

Later they started taking some popular Bachmann items however the balance gradually changed until Bachmann dominated.

I was told the reason was that they found Hornby difficult to deal with and wouldn't treat them as a serious model shop eventually stopping  supplying them altogether.

Bachmann on the other hand were only more that ready to fill the gap. The few remaining Hornby items on sale were bought in through a third party so were not very profitable and were later dropped.

Ian Allan now only take a very limited amount of Hornby locos, currently just two Coronation Class.

 

They are the sort of business that IMHO Hornby should be getting back on board with.

Edited March 22, 2019 by melmerby

[D9020 Nimbus]

4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

Those (I think), Hawkins Bazaar, Toyland/Toymaster, department stores (Fenwicks and Beales around here) and the late Modelezone took Hornby on a concession basis. After Hornby killed off the concessions (under the old regime) it's not surprising they aren't falling over themselves to restock.

 

Fenwicks in Newcastle (their home base) now sell Bachmann and Peco as well as Hornby.

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, Pacific231G said:

 

I think you're absolutely right about the need for a lower cost "basic" range, accurate and realistic enough to be models fit for a model railway not toys for a train set but not superdetailed showcase models. I don't think model trains will ever be cheap but affordable is entirely possible. I think that range also needs to be balanced rather than made up of "celebrity" locos. perhaps more Black Five than Mallard. There obviously is a market for buying super-detailed models, more I suspect for static collections or to run around a setrack loop than for operation on actual model railways but I can't help thinking that is too much of an older generation market that will decline rapidly with the boomer generation.

 

I'd think that's inevitable unless the numbers taking up the hobby equal the rate of attrition, and that's not something peering through even the most rose-tinted of specs would suggest. It doesn't really have much to do with the split between "main range" and Railroad levels of detail and pricing.

 

The fact is that those around my age (I'm 67) got into railways (real and model) at a time when it was a much more "mainstream" activity than it has become for later generations. It is therefore to be expected that participation will wane as that "bulge" gradually disappears from the demographic.

 

There is a perfectly good explanation as to why the hobby is currently so well provided for, the grey pound. As the double whammy of demographic change and the demise of the final-salary pension works into the equation, its influence will decline.

 

What's happening at the moment is the industry simply "making hay while the sun shines". However, I'm guessing that the fewer "average enthusiasts" of the future, not having been brought up on train sets, will seek high quality and detail, rather than more basic fodder. Will those with "untrained eyes" as cited by Ruggedpeak still be a part of the hobby two decades hence - in other fields, smaller numbers being involved often leads to raised levels of aspiration.  

 

John

Edited March 22, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

43 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

Fenwicks in Newcastle (their home base) now sell Bachmann and Peco as well as Hornby.

Last time I was in (end Nov 18) the Hornby presence was much reduced compared to previously and NO bargain shelf!*

 

*Had a few good buys off that.

[Wheatley]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

 

Fenwicks in Newcastle (their home base) now sell Bachmann and Peco as well as Hornby.

 

Ooh ! Hopefully York will start taking some again then. Thanks.

[ruggedpeak]

Fancy liveried 66's for less than £68, bit tempting.....

 

I remember Howes on Broad Street, used to get the train up there from south of Reading as a teenager in the early 80's. Still have Howes own-brand transfers in my boxes of stuff.

[JohnR]

6 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Apart from buying stuff  (mostly not British) my personal experience of the Toy and Hobby industry came from producing a number of videos for the BTHA in the late 1990s.  With one notable exception ( it wasn't model trains) I didn't form an impression of a cut-throat industry. There was rivalry sure but no sense of wanting to  finish off the competitors, more one of regret for those that had failed, and there did seem to be much mutual respect. Overall it seemed a pretty friendly industry with a high level of loyalty to its own staff and I filmed a fair number of the principals in their own homes.  That was a couple of decades ago but the Hornby programmes did nothing to dispel that impression and the reactions of Hattons and Rails of Sheffield (....in Sheffield) seemed more annoyance than real anger.

 

 

The funny point for me was SK going into Warley, saying how everyone in the industry knows and respects everyone else, they're all gentlemen, etc, and then flies into a rage at Rails of Sheffield (in Sheffield) banners. And knowing that he has deliberately spiked one of their models. 

[chris p bacon]

2 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 and then flies into a rage at Rails of Sheffield 

 

You must have seen a different episode to me. I saw a reasoned request from SK.

 

Rails knew what they were doing, when you walked in the door the banners were above the Hornby stand.  It's just business.

[JohnR]

Well, afterwards he was all "I wont forget this....."

[chris p bacon]

Which was quite mild when compared to Hattons.

 

The comment could be read a couple of ways, either vindictively or next year Rails find themselves swamped with Hornby banners. 

 

Compared to some I do business with SK is a pussycat...

[Chamby]

5 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I'd think that's inevitable unless the numbers taking up the hobby equal the rate of attrition, and that's not something peering through even the most rose-tinted of specs would suggest. It doesn't really have much to do with the split between "main range" and Railroad levels of detail and pricing.

 

The fact is that those around my age (I'm 67) got into railways (real and model) at a time when it was a much more "mainstream" activity than it has become for later generations. It is therefore to be expected that participation will wane as that "bulge" gradually disappears from the demographic.

 

There is a perfectly good explanation as to why the hobby is currently so well provided for, the grey pound. As the double whammy of demographic change and the demise of the final-salary pension works into the equation, its influence will decline.

 

What's happening at the moment is the industry simply "making hay while the sun shines". However, I'm guessing that the fewer "average enthusiasts" of the future, not having been brought up on train sets, will seek high quality and detail, rather than more basic fodder. Will those with "untrained eyes" as cited by Ruggedpeak still be a part of the hobby two decades hence - in other fields, smaller numbers being involved often leads to raised levels of aspiration.  

 

John

I bet there are ten trainset type layouts being built for every model railway, and by retiring baby boomers.  They just don’t go to clubs like us, being happy playing trains in their man shed. 

 

Phil. 

[Danemouth]

28 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

The funny point for me was SK going into Warley, saying how everyone in the industry knows and respects everyone else, they're all gentlemen, etc, and then flies into a rage at Rails of Sheffield (in Sheffield) banners. And knowing that he has deliberately spiked one of their models. 

 

At next year's show I would like to think the organisers will place these two stands at opposite ends of the show to reduce any friction.

 

Dave

[Robin Brasher]

14 minutes ago, Chamby said:

I bet there are ten trainset type layouts being built for every model railway, and by retiring baby boomers.  They just don’t go to clubs like us, being happy playing trains in their man shed. 

 

Phil. 

A lot of people where I live have not got any room for a model railway and play trains in the model railway clubs.  At the Hornby Railway Collectors Association meeting we unashamedly play trains on Hornby 0 gauge and Hornby Dublo 2 and 3 rail layouts devoid of scenery, we also have an 8 circuit test track at the Wimborne Railway Society's club room, a  4 circuit Tri-ang  layout at Winterborne Kingston and a 4 circuit 00 gauge test track with two DCC circuits at the barn at Godlingston Manor. We prefer playing trains to counting rivets although I must admit that I spend far too much time on the keyboard on this site.  Some of the members have made some excellent layouts such as the model of Wimborne Station with lots of Hornby southern region rolling stock but I enjoy playing trains.

[Chamby]

7 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Bachmann buyers have simply gone elsewhere according to what I have been hearing from other retailers,  who now happen to have bigger smiles on their faces.  Simple really - if you want to buy Bachmann you go to who sells it.  

 

And as far as I'm concerned exactly the same goes for buying Hornby - my WR non-gangwayed coaches are coming from my 'local' model railway purveyor who is a mere 1 hour drive from home (and who also sells lots of useful modelling material including kits).   I'd no more think of buying Hornby from Hattons than I would of flying to the moon.  However I suspect it's not a matter so much of Hattons ceasing to stock Hornby products but rather one of Hornby ceasing to supply Hattons - and somehow I don;'t think they are currently in a position to do that to one of their major customers.

 

All the hoo-ha between Hattons and Hornby in the programme has to be taken lightly, I suggest.  Hattons need Hornby at the moment, they haven’t had any new stuff from Bachmann since last November and have a growing list of out-of-stock items that most other retailers are still happily selling in their stead.  I know that this situation has impacted on my own buying patterns, spending rather less at Hattons this year.  And it’s not just Bachmann items either, I tend to buy a few items together so this piggyback business has gone elsewhere too.

 

I’m sure that Hattons recognise that Hornby’s 66 is a very different model to their own high-spec product.  And they have had no issue with selling Oxford Rail’s warwells alongside their own, either.

 

All of the retailer/commissioners including Rails and Hattons have not yet reached a critical mass to move on from their retail business and become solely manufacturers.  While that situation exists, especially whilst heavily investing in multiple new Product development like Hattons are at the moment, they are dependent on Hornby and Bachmann products:  as key suppliers they are essential to keep their customers buying and the cash flowing.  That is SK’s ace card at the moment.

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

Which was quite mild when compared to Hattons.

 

The comment could be read a couple of ways, either vindictively or next year Rails find themselves swamped with Hornby banners. 

 

Compared to some I do business with SK is a pussycat...

All put on for the telly I think and then edited to look like a bit of needle between various parties - more like 'The Office' than a documentary when it got to that sort of thing.  As Phil ('Chamby') said all that hoo-ha ... has to be taken lightly, which I definitely did.

 

Incidentally it's worth remembering in the 'getting a bit like Walthers'  situation Hattons own brand stuff extends to far more than locos or other big ticket items indicating that they perhaps have a wider approach in mind or being developed.  But nothing new in that when you think about it because although the world has changed certain retailers in 'the old days' did just the same although not in direct competition for the r-t-r market.

[Legend]

I’ve always thought the model railway industry was much too cozy . The trouble is that most have been in the business for a good length of time  and they all know each other ,it’s just natural,  marketing people, model railway editors etc.  Bannergate is a storm in a teacup , I wouldn’t be surprised if bits were accentuated for TV. So I look at the emergence of Accurascale , Cavalex, Hattons, Kernow  as being a breath of fresh air . At the same time YouTube gives people a direct say  with  channels such as Samstrains, Dean Park , lakeside etc , and it’s all the better for it .  

 

This is the new world Hornby operate in , which requires new ideas .  You can see that Hattons recognise this , with linkups with Samstrains etc .  Direct selling, new media options . Everything is changing . 

[Dunsignalling]

12 hours ago, Chamby said:

I bet there are ten trainset type layouts being built for every model railway, and by retiring baby boomers.  They just don’t go to clubs like us, being happy playing trains in their man shed. 

 

Phil. 

That is probably true, but whether it's ten, five, or two, the thrust of my earlier post is that (IMHO) as we baby boomers euphemistically drop out of the equation, newcomers will be joining a hobby that is even more a minority interest than is currently the case.

 

Many, if not most, of those won't have been "initiated" via train sets and, as often seems to be the case in other fields, the smaller the cohort of participants in any activity, the more dedicated and demanding they tend to be. They have to do a lot for themselves so those looking for an easy start don't join in the first place. It's actually how railway modelling (as opposed to having a "train set" layout) used to be before r-t-r improved so much. 

 

There is also the point that if newbies replace "leavers" on a one-for-four basis (which, empirically, doesn't seem too far off the mark) over the next twenty years, the industry may find that any kind of two-tier quality/pricing structure becomes untenable. They could move either way but, again extrapolating from other activities, as niches become smaller, those catering for them move inexorably up-market in order to survive. Quite simply, if you have fewer customers, you need to make more money from each one.

 

Looking around, it usually (though not always) seems to me that the "train-setters" tend to fall into the more price-sensitive end of the spectrum, whereas "modellers" (insofar as we still qualify as such) appreciate the work higher-end r-t-r saves them. are more willing to pay the price, and will thus retain the support of the industry. Also, the very important "collector" market is more likely to be inspired to buy "better" than "Basic". Train-setting won't disappear, but a shrinking demographic will ensure that copious amounts of pre-owned models become available, with the laws of supply-and-demand keeping a lid on prices. Many, therefore, may not miss it much if trade support wanes.

 

John

 

  

Edited March 23, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Captain Kernow]

12 hours ago, Robin Brasher said:

A lot of people where I live have not got any room for a model railway and play trains in the model railway clubs.  At the Hornby Railway Collectors Association meeting we unashamedly play trains on Hornby 0 gauge and Hornby Dublo 2 and 3 rail layouts devoid of scenery, we also have an 8 circuit test track at the Wimborne Railway Society's club room, a  4 circuit Tri-ang  layout at Winterborne Kingston and a 4 circuit 00 gauge test track with two DCC circuits at the barn at Godlingston Manor. We prefer playing trains to counting rivets although I must admit that I spend far too much time on the keyboard on this site.  Some of the members have made some excellent layouts such as the model of Wimborne Station with lots of Hornby southern region rolling stock but I enjoy playing trains.

That sounds like a huge amount of fun.

 

[Pacific231G]

On 22/03/2019 at 20:03, Chamby said:

I bet there are ten trainset type layouts being built for every model railway, and by retiring baby boomers.  They just don’t go to clubs like us, being happy playing trains in their man shed. 

 

Phil. 

I'm not sure about the ratio but I agree it's probably a majority.

I think there is a definite distinction between railway models and model railways (though the latter obviously requires the former) and It would be interesting to compare the total amount of sectional track (Setrack and its equvalents) being sold compared with say Streamline.

From what I've seen of both, people building a  "Locodrome" (a more dignified term than "train set" coined by Loco-Revue) are more likely to buy sectional track, particularly points, as often as not from the same manufacturer as their trains. Those setting out with the intention to bulld a representation of an actual railway, albeit compressed and simplified, are more likely to go for more  authentic looking trackwork which, in the first instance, tends to mean Streamline even though  a minority may go on to kit or handbuilt track. 

There is of course quite a lot of crossover between the two. I've seen some very good layouts based on sectional track and bare boards circuits based on flexible track,  but dealers' impressions of the proportion of each that they sell (or perhaps better the relative proportions of customers buying each) might give a rough idea of the balance between those who build model railways and those who simply run model trains.

 

This does not of course tell us much about the third group who simply buy model trains to add to their collections.

 

I'm not totally convinced that interest in model railways is dependent on everyday working railways being interesting. There is a fascination with miniature things and models that goes back to the dawn of time; even more so with miniature things that function like their full size equivalents- which is fairly inherent in model railways. I've also known quite a few railway modellers who had little or no interest in full size railways.

 

I wonder if in the long term it may be a bit like interest in tall ships or narrow boats, Commercial sailing ships disappeared from European waters so long ago that the enormous popular enthusiasm for tall ship festivals can't be based on nostalgia or living memory. Working narrow boats all but disappeared from our canal network before most of the people who now use the canals were born;  yet the over 30 000 boats on the canals now are far more numerous than in their Victorian commercial heyday (though the boats don't move as much). 

 

Similarly, a high proportion of those buying model steam engines from Hornby now, have probably never seen a working steam locomotive outside of a heritage line or museum. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Pacific231G

[Dunsignalling]

15 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

 

You must have seen a different episode to me. I saw a reasoned request from SK.

 

Rails knew what they were doing, when you walked in the door the banners were above the Hornby stand.  It's just business.

 

The real purpose of the banners was so that everybody could see the Rails stand as they came in.  It's a big show and you want the punters to visit you early, before they've had chance to spend out elsewhere.

 

I don't think it would really have mattered, to Rails, whose stand was between them and the entrance, so long as it wasn't so high as to obscure the banners. If SK/Hornby considered theirs to be overshadowed, the remedy is to create a taller, more impressive one for their next appearance.

 

Could have been worse, they might have been behind Rails, where they wouldn't be visible at all.

 

John

Edited March 23, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[Ron Ron Ron]