BBC Four - James May's Big Trouble in Model Britain

[Edwardian]

Brilliant.

 

I laughed as I scrolled down the poster on screen.

 

Then I got to hashtag tedious and really lost it.

 

Hilarious!

[woodenhead]

I hope they have permission from the BBC for using their logo and Mr May for using his likeness - Bannergate 3 The Take Down. 

[Guest Mancunian]

1 hour ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Did somebody get the point and could said somebody still be needled ??

[Ron Ron Ron]

Hornby and Rails are on opposite sides of the main hall today.

 

Hattons have an impressive selection of their own models on display, right next door to Hornby.

Mercedes next door to Skoda respectively, 

perhaps?

[RJS1977]

7 hours ago, Mancunian said:

 

Did somebody get the point and could said somebody still be needled ??

 

I overheard the Rails guy saying to someone that Simon had a good laugh with him over it, and there's no animosity between them.

 

TBH I suspect if the banners at Warley hadn't been advertising Rails's rival Terrier, Simon probably wouldn't have had an issue with them.

 

[Bernard Lamb]

6 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

i looked on the list of Terriers, I couldnt find a Tedious,

 

Closest I found was 65 Tooting, scrapped in 1901.

 

maybe Rails could make Simon one named Tedious, and Simon could present Rails with one named Steak ?

 

 

 

 

It does leave the door open for Bachmann to join in the fun with a suitably named meat derived nick name on their next release.

Or maybe they could aim for an untapped market and produce a vegan model.

Bernard

[adb968008]

4 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

It does leave the door open for Bachmann to join in the fun with a suitably named meat derived nick name on their next release.

Or maybe they could aim for an untapped market and produce a vegan model.

Bernard

Weve already got a vegan model..

 

If weve Steak and Tedious already,

 

Hatton’s can just bring P’eas.

 

 

Hat, coat, off to see a man about a pair of 50’s.

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2019 by adb968008

[Oliver Rails]

Terrier Competition:

 

 

[melmerby]

32 minutes ago, Bernard Lamb said:

It does leave the door open for Bachmann to join in the fun with a suitably named meat derived nick name on their next release.

Or maybe they could aim for an untapped market and produce a vegan model.

Bernard

You can't get more vegan than W8

How about No 36?

Edited March 23, 2019 by melmerby

[Dunsignalling]

6 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

Hornby and Rails are on opposite sides of the main hall today.

 

Hattons have an impressive selection of their own models on display, right next door to Hornby.

Mercedes next door to Skoda respectively, 

perhaps?

 

I get your drift, but you are a couple of decades adrift on Skoda's positioning in the market place.

[melmerby]

1 minute ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I get your drift, but you are a couple of decades adrift on Skoda's positioning in the market place.

He's got it right.

He's referring to Hornby's top notch but cheap version..........

[robmcg]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

I get your drift, but you are a couple of decades adrift on Skoda's positioning in the market place.

 

It's off-topic but I admired the old rear engine Skoda 110..   back in the early 80s my then-recently widowed mother-in-law decided to be independent and service her car herself (good on her!), and filled the engine with water, having mistaken the correct cap/orifice.  It still ran but after a few days she said it was running 'a bit funny'.  The crankcase was full of watery oily gunge, we drained it re-fillled it with oil and it lasted many more years.

 

Mind you, Norton Commando 750cc bikes could do similar with leaky Amal carb float bowls, fill the crankcase with petrol....  and 'run a bit funny'...

 

I told you it was off-topic....    James May would have smiled knowingly perhaps.

[Chamby]

11 hours ago, Oliver Rails said:

Terrier Competition:

 

 

I was all smiles with this until I read that you have to ‘like’ Rails as a condition of entry.  The unashamed pursuit of ‘likes’ is always a big turn-off for me.

 

Tedious indeed!

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, melmerby said:

He's got it right.

He's referring to Hornby's top notch but cheap version..........

They seem to be selling well, so there are clearly plenty of people for whom a Lima model with a more modern motor and a better paint job is good enough at the price. But top notch? Really?  

 

John

Edited March 24, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[matt-b]

Watching programs like this always make me wonder what the margins involved are..

 

How much does it cost Hornby to produce the 66, how much do they sell them to the big box shifters for..and then how much do the big box shifters make per sale.

 

With Hattons selling the 66s at £67.50, I can't imagine there is much money in this for either company unless they manage to shift massive numbers.

 

Thanks.

Edited March 24, 2019 by matt-b

[Dunsignalling]

38 minutes ago, matt-b said:

Watching program so like this always make me wonder what the margins involved are..

 

How much does it cost Hornby to produce the 66, how much do they sell them to the big box shifters for..and then how much do the big box shifters make per sale.

 

With Hattons selling the 66s at £67.50, I can't imagine there is much money in this for either company unless they manage to shift massive numbers.

 

Thanks.

 

For an uncomplicated model like this, roughly divide the selling price by three. One third cost, one third Hornby's profit, one third Hatton's profit.

 

Old tooling has potential for producing decent returns, but only if enough can be made to create a low unit cost after setting up for production is covered. Problem is, old stuff almost never creates enough interest for that to happen. These 66s seem to be an instance of it working rather well, but I hope, for their sake, that Hornby don't decide it represents a "new normal", as I doubt it would work for more than a couple of other items in their back catalogue.

 

Lima diesels were cleverly designed ( ) with very few parts (basic shell, glazing, main chassis, bogies, cab inserts and buffer heads is about it) The amount of factory assembly is therefore tiny, considerably less than, for instance, a J50 0-6-0T (the Hornby one, not the old Lima model).  

 

Consequently, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a similar range of Class 47s or 37s next year, but there isn't much else that could be made in a sufficient variety of liveries to repeat this trick.

 

John

Edited March 24, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 a Lima model with a more modern motor and a better paint job is good enough at the price. 

 

John

That must be the most ridiculous put down ever.

 

The amount of vitriol towards Hornby re the Terrier is just depressing.

They updated a model to a much higher standard, marketed it at a small increase in price over the previous so-so version and they get slated from pillar to post.

Yes they have got a few things wrong, maybe a higher level of research and another £40 on the price?

Then everyone would be claiming it's too expensive.

 

They can't win.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ron Ron Ron]

8 minutes ago, melmerby said:

That must be the most ridiculous put down ever.

 

The amount of vitriol towards Hornby re the Terrier is just depressing.

They updated a model to a much higher standard, marketed it at a small increase in price over the previous so-so version and they get slated from pillar to post....................

 

 

Keith, the comment was about the comparison between Hatton's and  Hornby's stands and models at the Alexandra Palace show.

Nothing to do with Rails and the Terrier.

 

Hornby's Class 66 is just a re-motored basic Lima model, with a better paint job, NEM couplings and a DCC socket, but lacking much fine detail and any working lights.  Much less "Skoda" and more Ford Sierra.

 

 

Ron

[Edwardian]

It's not £40, it's £20 difference in respective list prices, generally rising to about £30 by reason of discounts to Hornby's.

 

I have not detected "vitriol" towards the product.  It does not deserve vitriol.  Despite the temptation of some to confuse fact-based assessment with "negativity", I have not seen much subjective condemnation either.

 

I think we have to separate the model from the circumstances of its genesis; there have been quite a few negative reactions to the decision to produce the Terrier as a Rails spoiler, and both Hornby and Simon Kohler have attracted some opprobrium in these pages as a result of the decisions they have taken.  I have tried to be measured in relation to this, pondering the wisdom and effects of this policy.  If I'm quite candid, it does leave something of a bad taste, but, I am not convinced that Rails haven't come out rather better than Hornby over the affair, despite the BBC programme telling the story of Hornby from the perspective of its current management.

 

But the model itself is a different matter.  I would neither seek to run down the model because it's a spoiler (though it may be worse for having been rushed and need to sell it cheap), nor would I seek to dismiss fair criticism of the model as "negativity" or fake news just because there is an issue with Hornby's tactics.

 

We cannot yet make a proper comparison between the rival Terriers at this stage, and, frankly, we'll need to have seen all 6 from each manufacturer in production before we can call it on the "Terrier Wars".  From what I've seen, however, my prediction is that we will end up  with one good mid-range quality model and one much more refined and high-spec model.  I suspect that both will easily justify their respective price tags. 

 

[jjb1970]

I think there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of a no frills basic model which runs well and captures the look of the prototype. Some just want to run trains, some have limited funds, some want a good basis for modelling projects etc. In those terms I think that the Hornby 66 works well and there is a market for both the Hornby and Hattons models. The one that looks to be in a slightly awkward position is the Bachmann 66 I think. 

[adb968008]

45 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

I think there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept of a no frills basic model which runs well and captures the look of the prototype. Some just want to run trains, some have limited funds, some want a good basis for modelling projects etc. In those terms I think that the Hornby 66 works well and there is a market for both the Hornby and Hattons models. The one that looks to be in a slightly awkward position is the Bachmann 66 I think. 

I thought that too initially, but the Bachmann model isnt too bad.

 

Bachmann have set the price of the class 66 at £144, at the lowest end of their diesel range, if retailers discounted this 20% -30% your looking at a new 66 at a range of £104-£116.. thats attractive.

 

I’ll admit to haven taken advantage of the situation and bought a number of ebayed Bachmann 66’s in the £75 range.

 

with the volumes being produced, by all manufacturers, i’m confident an oversupply of this years, and prior, models om the market will exist for a while. The scary thing is, if everyone makes reasonable money, we could see more of tactics of guerrilla modelling in the future... classes 20,25,37,40,47, even 142 given its soon demise could out yet.

 

personally i’d prefer DMUs not duplication, Hornby hasnt made a unique DMU of their own in decades, the 142, 110 and Triang MetCam are the only ones I can think of, (153/155/156/101/AEC/121(117?)) are inspired of acquisitions)... a new 104 / 110 would be nice.

Edited March 24, 2019 by adb968008

[33212]

I visited Ally Pally yesterday....I found it was a bit "flat" over previous years, maybe for me its just become too familiar....there was nothing to buy on the Bachmann stand - always used to be a good "scrum" there...Several of the large retailers were there, Kernow, Rails, Hereford and Cheltenham etc- but I found they were all selling the same stuff. All had a raft of the recent releases by Bachmann, all had piles of Hornby 66's at around the £67.50 mark - all were discounting Bachmanns mk 1's and 2's...I was looking for a 47576 Kings Lynn in NSE - all had these and prices ranged from £99-£125..so take your pick of where to get it (I did not get one in the end) - and all were selling each others items - Hattons warwells and RHTT stuff was everywhere. Lots of independent sellers - I think they were great and made the show - its the access to all of the little odds and ends...

 

One thing I did notice, and heard others comment on, was just the sheer cost of things nowadays - one chap was interested in the Bachmann blue pullman set but it was £600! - it just a loco and five coaches in reality. 

 

I baulked at the cost of spending £25 on a four wheel open wagon (Bachmann MCV), the same was less than a tenner just a couple of years ago. I wanted about ten to make up another rake - ok for £100 but not £250! And I am comfortably well off to be able to splash out when needed - but there is a fine line between value and rip-off. Money stayed in my pocket and I'll get them one by one on eBay when I see them.

 

MG

 

 

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

Keith, the comment was about the comparison between Hatton's and  Hornby's stands and models at the Alexandra Palace show.

Nothing to do with Rails and the Terrier.

 

Hornby's Class 66 is just a re-motored basic Lima model, with a better paint job, NEM couplings and a DCC socket, but lacking much fine detail and any working lights.  Much less "Skoda" and more Ford Sierra.

 

 

Ron

Hi Ron.

Looks like I've reading two themes as one.

It seemed when I read it that the comments included the Terrier as well .

I must admit I couldn't fathom the "Lima" bit.

 

Must pay more attention at the back of the class, methinks

[Jol Wilkinson]

6 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

For an uncomplicated model like this, roughly divide the selling price by three. One third cost, one third Hornby's profit, one third Hatton's profit.

 

John,

 

that somewhat simplistic view of costings may mislead some people into thinking Hornby and other manufacturers make large net profits. You forgot the HMRC's slice, too.

 

What you call profit is actually the "margin" between buying and selling and from which a number of operating costs have to be taken. So the "profit" made by Hornby (or Hattons) is probably considerably less.

The actual unit production cost is probably quite low but won't include design, development, transport, marketing, warehousing, etc. Hatton's probably work on a lower gross margin than you imply, but for retailed products rely on large turnover and low operation costs to achieve their net margins. For both, the actual figures for any particular model or product are probably different anyway, especially if market pricing is use do define RRP and discounts.

 

Jol

 

 

[RJS1977]

5 hours ago, Ron Ron Ron said:

 

 

Hornby's Class 66 is just a re-motored basic Lima model, with a better paint job, NEM couplings and a DCC socket, but lacking much fine detail and any working lights.  Much less "Skoda" and more Ford Sierra.

 

 

Ron

 

If it's got no working lights, it's either a BMW or a bicycle...